Please, tell everyone it is illegal to enter.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I imagine that the money they keep from the 7000+ that do not get in, is like shipping and handling when you buy something mail order. It is the service fee, so you are actually buying something of value, a service. I think it's brilliant, and I would keep more of the money if it were me. People are lining up right next to the cliff, and can actually see over it, yet they continue to jump off at alarming numbers, and pay for the privelage....

Which law are you suggesting would make it illegal?

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Steve Perkins

How about NYC marathon lotery?
Fred.

Article IV, Legislative, Section 19 of the California Constitution bans most private lotteries. Penal Code Sec. 319. A lottery is any scheme for the disposal or distribution of property by chance, among persons who have paid or promised to pay any valuable consideration for the chance of obtaining such property or a portion of it, or for any share or any interest in such property, upon any agreement, understanding, or expectation that it is to be distributed or disposed of by lot or chance, whether called a lottery, raffle, or gift enterprise, or by whatever name the same may be known.

I don't see anywhere in your California wording that lotteries are prohibited, I presume it appears elsewhere.
None of the many states in which I have lived prohibit what most people consider raffles (ie prizes, not cash), they regulate and tax them. The IM slot lottery to most people's definition a raffle ("stuff" of value) not a lottery (cash prizes).
To my limited knowledge, the statutes are on the books to criminalize what were affectionately called numbers games run by unsavory sorts. Just as wagering with your friends and coworkers on sporting events is not illegal, being a "booky" and skimming some of the wagers is.
I don't even know where NAS offices are and I'm too lazy to look, but if they're not in CA, the code is powerless.

I believe all of the proceeds of the lottery go to charity.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Lotteries are not illegal if they comply with applicable state regulation. Most states prohibit requiring the payment of a fee or any purchase to enter. However, they are permited to charge a handling fee. Thus NYRRC requires a $10.00 handling fee to enter the NYC Marathon. Of course the issue is when does a handling fee become a pay to play entry fee.

Because a Kona slot isn't property or a prize.

You may consider it a "prize" but you don't get that slot in perpetuity and you don't get that slot for free you still have to pay the entry fee. Now if you got that slot for free then it would have a value and then could be considered a "prize" but since you don't actually have a net gain you can't have considered to have "won" any property or anything of value.

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"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."

Hunter S. Thompson (1937-2005)

Wrong. The right to compete at Kona has huge value- way beyond the entry fee. People are shelling out $35-85 for a chance to realized that value....- it a lottery

Hmmmm, last I saw WTC is based out of FL and HI. Wouldn't they be then subject to those states' laws?

I'm no lawyer, just posing the question .........

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Rick, "Retired" hobbyist athlete
Trying to come back slowly from acute A-Fib

Again it might have some value to the people on this board but beyond that there is no "value" since you don't actually win anything (property or monetary compensation) nor do you win free entry which would have a cash value.

If I ran a lottery where the prize was an opportunity for you to pay me to kick you in the nuts no one would consider that a "prize" even though that may be your thing and as such wouldn't constitute and illegal lottery.

Just because you'd want to have the opportunity doesn't make it a "prize" in the legal sense of the word. You aren't winning any property, nor are you winning cash or it's equivalent.

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"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."

Hunter S. Thompson (1937-2005)

interesting question. Certainly on mailings you comply with all laws of the state into which you are mailing. Not sure what the law is on internet sweepstakes. Similar to the issue of state tax on internet sales from a merchant out of the state. Unsettled law right now.

Do you want the answer as to why it is legal or do you want to hear why you don't think it is "right".

From a legal perspective the Kona lottery is very simple. A group of people pay for a chance to win a spot at Kona, not for a sport at Kona. What they are promised is that their name will be entered into a draw which if their name is chosen they will be granted another set of rights.

If their name is chosen the set of rights they get are the option to pay for their race spot at Kona. You don't win a spot a Kona, you win the right to pay for a spot at Kona.

Nothing is given away for free in the Kona lottery, so the no purchase entry is not necessary. People who win this lottery only have the opportunity to buy somthing else.

The California State lottery gives away a prize for being first. You buy that powerball ticket and if you win you get $ not another set of rights. Your definition from the California lottery states (and you highlighted it) that the lottery is a scheme to distribute property. The Kona Lottery is not distributing any property, it is only distributing rights to property sort of like a right of first refusal.

Dave

obviously you WILL NEVER win a lottery spot now.

huh? you've never played the lotto? what's the difference?

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king of the road says you move too slow
KING OF THE ROAD SAYS YOU MOVE TOO SLOW

You are close...a Kona Slot is property. You pay for it, you own it, and nobody else can have it. You are then free to use it or let it expire if you want. Think of it as a time share in a crummy condo in Florida.

But if you win the Kona Lottery you don't win a Kona slot; you win the right to buy a Kona Slot. It sounds like semantics, but it is a significant distinction at law.

Dave

Florida most certainly has similar laws, and though I have not checked, I imagine Hawaii does as well. Also, while called a lottery, the Kona entrance draw is legally a raffle, which has mostly the same rules. In my view of the law, the Kona lottery is in fact done illegally, unless, as Frank said, the proceeds go to charity, or if WTC has not for profit legal status, which I am sure many of your bank accounts can testify is not the case

I've always thought of it as a raffle ticket. You pay and hope your name gets pulled from the hat. Raffles are legal just about everywhere if you get a permit from the state.

Boy, why is this so difficult. You are paying money for the chance of receiving something of value period. Your distinction about the right to enter versus the right to have a spot is a distinction without a difference. Obviously to subvert the lottery laws instead of a chance to win a two week trip to Bermuda you would say if you win you have the right to pay $10.00 and receive the two week vacation in bermuda. Church bingo and not-for-profit games of chance are specfically carved out by state or local law. Also, State lotteries are governed by seperate state laws. Accordingly, there is no basis to compare and contrast.

I agree.

Under Florida law is seems it is a lottery and the prize is something of value. A Kona slot is of value. If you don’t think so, just watch the next e-bay action.

849.09 Lottery prohibited; exceptions.--

(1) It is unlawful for any person in this state to:

(a) Set up, promote, or conduct any lottery for money or for anything of value;

(b) Dispose of any money or other property of any kind whatsoever by means of any lottery;

(c) Conduct any lottery drawing for the distribution of a prize or prizes by lot or chance, or advertise any such lottery scheme or device in any newspaper or by circulars, posters, pamphlets, radio, telegraph, telephone, or otherwise;

(d) Aid or assist in the setting up, promoting, or conducting of any lottery or lottery drawing, whether by writing, printing, or in any other manner whatsoever, or be interested in or connected in any way with any lottery or lottery drawing;

(e) Attempt to operate, conduct, or advertise any lottery scheme or device;

(f) Have in her or his possession any lottery wheel, implement, or device whatsoever for conducting any lottery or scheme for the disposal by lot or chance of anything of value;

(g) Sell, offer for sale, or transmit, in person or by mail or in any other manner whatsoever, any lottery ticket, coupon, or share, or any share in or fractional part of any lottery ticket, coupon, or share, whether such ticket, coupon, or share represents an interest in a live lottery not yet played or whether it represents, or has represented, an interest in a lottery that has already been played;

(h) Have in her or his possession any lottery ticket, or any evidence of any share or right in any lottery ticket, or in any lottery scheme or device, whether such ticket or evidence of share or right represents an interest in a live lottery not yet played or whether it represents, or has represented, an interest in a lottery that has already been played;

(i) Aid or assist in the sale, disposal, or procurement of any lottery ticket, coupon, or share, or any right to any drawing in a lottery;

(j) Have in her or his possession any lottery advertisement, circular, poster, or pamphlet, or any list or schedule of any lottery prizes, gifts, or drawings; or

(k) Have in her or his possession any so-called "run down sheets," tally sheets, or other papers, records, instruments, or paraphernalia designed for use, either directly or indirectly, in, or in connection with, the violation of the laws of this state prohibiting lotteries and gambling.

Provided, that nothing in this section shall prohibit participation in any nationally advertised contest, drawing, game or puzzle of skill or chance for a prize or prizes unless it can be construed as a lottery under this section; and, provided further, that this exemption for national contests shall not apply to any such contest based upon the outcome or results of any horserace, harness race, dograce, or jai alai game.

(2) Any person who is convicted of violating any of the provisions of paragraph (a), paragraph (b), paragraph (c), or paragraph (d) of subsection (1) is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(3) Any person who is convicted of violating any of the provisions of paragraph (e), paragraph (f), paragraph (g), paragraph (i), or paragraph (k) of subsection (1) is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083. Any person who, having been convicted of violating any provision thereof, thereafter violates any provision thereof is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. The provisions of this section do not apply to bingo as provided for in s. 849.0931.

(4) Any person who is convicted of violating any of the provisions of paragraph (h) or paragraph (j) of subsection (1) is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083. Any person who, having been convicted of violating any provision thereof, thereafter violates any provision thereof is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

I think NA's position is that this is not a lottery because there is no fee to enter. Instead it's a sweepstakes with a permissible handling fee....

"(h) Have in her or his possession any lottery ticket, or any evidence of any share or right in any lottery ticket, or in any lottery scheme or device, whether such ticket or evidence of share or right represents an interest in a live lottery not yet played or whether it represents, or has represented, an interest in a lottery that has already been played; "


... I like the idea of being prosecuted for being in possession of a lottery ticket

Your example of paying $10 for the trip is not the same thing.

If you win the Kona lottery you will then pay the market price for a Kona slot. The same price that any qualifier paid that year. You will not pay some negligible proce that does not reflect the value of the rights you relaized.

My distinction is not the right to enter versus the right to have a spot (and I never said that). The distinction is the right to enter and being entered. Winning the Kona lottery does not get you entered into Kona, it allows you to pay to be entered in Kona.

Did anyone ever buy a concert ticket before the internet? You used to get those wristbands, and then on the morning in question they would randomly select the first wristband in line. That lucky guy didn't win front row tickets, just the chance to buy tickets first. He usually bought front row tickets, but could easily have bought upper bowl tickets instead. By having his number picked he didn't win the tickets, just the opportunity to buy tickets.

Dave