Dude Franky says relax.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

Bro, I hate to tell ya but "living on pain relievers" is a pretty common deal. I would say it's far worse in other sports ... especially contact sports. I wouldn't say it goes on "all-season", but almost every college athlete goes through a period where pain relievers are taken regularly (even in non-contact sports), so practicing and playing can not be missed. I would assume it's "worse" in the pros, where the schedule is longer, contact is greater, availability of "stronger" pain relievers (prescription from team doctor), etc.

If you won't, your competitors will ... while you're on the couch not feeling "well", they're training. As long as they don't break, they have an advantage over you.

Is there anyone here that hasn't trained sick?

If not, how do you know when you are too sick to train? If you never cross the line, how do you know where it is?

I've had some pretty good workouts on days I shouldn't have trained. Granted you don't want to do a long run with the Grim reaper at your side, but you can train while sore and while somewhat ill. If Michael Jordan can hit for 45 at the Garden with the flu, you can run a few miles. Maybe you cut it down from your usual multiple hour runathon, but you can still train.

I thought this thread was going to be about "drugs", like the illegal performance-enhancing kind. I was looking to learn something about Endurance Training and PED's. Pain killers? Caffeine use? I'm not going to speak for every person, but they use those in high school and at levels younger than varsity.

Not sure if I'd be questioning/ridiculing Molina and Gordo's prep and use of "drugs" and taining while "ill" ... seems to be working.

Of course, now I have to go read the "Epic Camps".

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

I think his concern is more about what a "not so good" example it is for less experienced athletes, and the bad influence it could have on others.

His last comment about saying sorry for the title of the post would indicate that he did not mean to be so "tough" in his post, but happened to be for language reasons I think (the same way I am struggling to defend him right now, I can't find the right words in English).

Anyway, I hope Scott didn't take it too badly, as I think it was more asking for an explanation than really accusing (maybe I'm wrong).

Come on guys, Uli raises some valid points.

Now let me start off by saying that I'm a huge Gordo fan. Jump on his site regularly. Have his book. Integrated some of his approaches in my own IM training.

All that said, I read the daily reports on this new Epic Camp with the macabre fascination of a really bad B-horror movie. I tuned out after the first couple of days.

This camp, unlike the others before, did not seem to be about implementing a high level of volume (mostly z2 type stuff) in preparation for an IM season, underscored by some little competitiveness. Quite the converse. This Camp seemed to be a bunch of incredible heavyweights engaged in a bout of "one upsmanship".

I'm just a run of the mill triathlete, so perhaps all of this goes over my head. But I truly fail to see the value of this Epic-style training, as implemented at this specific camp. If the Epic Camp was about these heavyweights getting together for the specific purpose of beating each other up while vying for the points competition, and it was billed in that fashion, then perhaps my position would be different.

Robert

PS. KP is a beast. Did you see the size of that dude's cannons?

I agree with uli. Triathlon is a nice recreational activity just like radio control airplanes is. For that matter there is a forum on radio control airplanes at the url listed below where people exchange information, and discuss topics associated with there intrest ad infinitum just as they do here.

http://www.radiocontrolzone.com/....php?&forumid=56

Ironman triathlons and most triathlons are not real professional sports. Just as in radio control airplanes there is prize money for some events but they are for the most part staged for fun. Personally I would not classify olympic triathlon in the same category as olympic swimming, or olympic track and field either for that matter (wasn't triathlon an exhibition sport?).

For these reasons I don't think that the use of performance enhancing drugs as acceptable or healthy. For what its worth people cheat in radio control airplane competitions too.

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I was, now I will tri again!
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Any time is a good time.
God Bless you my friend.

I'd rather a a pro's diary be honest. Tell everything. Let people know what being a pro entails, so they can decide if it's for them or not.

Athletes are not necessarily role models.

In reality athletes consume more alcohol, use more drugs, have more sex, etc than almost every other group of people. statistics bear it out. Depending on what you like, think is right, etc they may or may not be role models.

I'm for honesty is every case.

Edit: Can anyone post a link to Molina's Epic articles/diary. I've seen them ebfore, but cannot "refind" them. I love rading about the hell athletes put themselves through to reach the top.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Goodtime;

What is your criteria for a "real" profesisonal sport? I think people such as Lori Bowden, Peter Reid, Thomas Hellriegel, and PNF would disagree with you. To these folks, triathlon is their livelyhood, therefore making them professionals. I would also like to know why you do not classify olympic triathlon in the same category as olympic swimming, or olympic track and field? Although draft legal (different topic all together) the olympic triathletes go through the same hard work, pain, suffering, and hardship (sometimes finacial) that many olympic athletes go through. IMO your statement is an insult their sacrifices!

And NO, triathlon was NOT an exhibition sport.

We're on the same page here. I agree with you.

I know that these camps are for pros or very good age-groupers, but still I think that one should be cautious when reporting on a website where others are reading and may want to copy the pros and that's why Ulli I guess expressed some concern.

On top of that, Gordo and Scott are coaches and should be careful with that too.

Maybe you and me (and almost everybody on this forum) will know to make a difference between our situation and theirs and not follow any advice or action made by the pros, but you will always have one or two people that can be easily influenced.

Huh?

Professional: participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs. Engaged in by persons receiving financial return.

Or maybe you are using a different dictionary than the rest of us. Sure, it isn't as big, nor is it as old as the other sports you mention. But if you are telling me PNF, DS, MA, PR, LB, LVL, CB, etc., are not professional athletes, you are dead wrong.

Scott Molina's been handing out advice for years and most of it is impractical for age groupers. Although he says otherwise, he doesn't seem to have a clue what life's like for someone who isn't a professional athlete. It's always aboout working less, training more, and taking a nap in the afternoon. He had an awesome pro career but I don't think I'd have him as a coach even if he was free. If he's coaching pros then that's another matter.



Larry

Scott is known as "the coaches coach".

Uli please I am trying to understand what you wrote. Did i get it?

Anyone else read that painkillers interfere with hormonal processes that should be building up muscles, tendons, etc, and rebuilding or repairing exercise damages. If this is true then painkillers are counterproductive.

If the above is true and it is being ignored, then it is because those that do it are not reading or understanding relevant literature. Ignore this and perhaps ignore other broader drug vs sport questions. Finally if coaches are ignoring physiology then perhaps they are not such a good coach. Thus, Uli's concern.

Am I right?

Larry, your points are quite valid, but I believe Scott Molina clearly states that if you have to work more than 25 hours per week, he is not the coach for you. Many in semi retirement, retirement or who work for "recreation" rather than paying the mortgage can get by on 25 hours of work per week. But fo the rest rest of us, this is impractical. I won't argue with the results of age groupers that Molina has coached. I personally know a few and they have had huge improvements. This is not to say that his approach is good for everyone and something that you can maintain on a year in and year out basis.



As Phil Maffetone says (and there is a discussion on anther thread), you have to arrive at the start line Fit, rested and healthy. Most people arrive fit and ready for "high performance", the question is whether they are healthy and sufficiently rested. I have to say that personally, my best two Ironmans (out of 11) were the ones where I arrived averaging 12 hours per week in my buildup rather than 18-20 hours. I guess the key is being rested and healthy, things I have typically sacrificed in others.

Either way, why do people try summiting Everest in a snowstorm, running out of time and oxygen, knowing that they put themselves at risk. Because it is there. I think the same mentality applies to seeing what one's limits are in a scenario like Epic Camp. Don't forget, Gordo was a mountaineer before taking up tris ! Either way, what you are reading about at Epic Camp, is not much different than what the Big 4 were doing in the 80's as they explored the limits of Ironman training and performance. We are finally getting some insight into it.

Do you really think that Dave Scott did anything less when he used to lock himself up at Steamboat Springs for his annual training camp to peak for KONA, or Pauli Kiuru in Flagstaff Arizona, Van Lierde training 6 hours per day in the Cote d'azur before his second Ironman win, or Peter Reid, at his "high altitude camp" in KONA last Sept ? It appears that this is the type of training that the guys do to get in the 8 - 8:30 zone. Whether taking tons of pain killers and Vitamin C is healthy or not is another topic. But clearly, doing Ironmans in itself cannot be totally healthy !

quite, yes. pls. excuse my bad english. it's especially difficult on sensitive topics.

cheers

uli

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK

The original post had some valid points although the phrasing was not the best; however, his English is better than that of many native English speakers posting on this forum.

1. There is something wrong if you *must* have pain killers, NSAIDs or related to complete your workout. There seems to be a widespread belief that habitually taking pain killers is a valid training/racing strategy. Regardless of whether it has harmful long term effects, who wants to look back on their race performance knowing that it was accomplished in part through drugs, legal or otherwise?

2. Ditto for caffeine.

As another poster said, this epic camp seems far different than past camps. Perhaps it is a difference in reporting style.

--- BEGIN unsubstantiated opinions and incomplete musings ---
Personally, I'm exploring the idea of radically increased volume in the base building phase and it seems that vloume should be limited by the amount of possible recovery. My position right now is that training and recovery should be balanced. I define recovery as food absorbed + quality sleep + stretching, etc. If training goes through the roof and recovery does not rise in equal amounts, then the training is destructive. From the reporting, it does not seem that the epic camp is following the training=recovery formula that I believe in.
--- END unsubstantiated opinions and incomplete musings ---

I would be interested if someone could discuss the epic camp philosophy and the above ideas.

It seems from reading through molina's posts that the pro guys are trying to absorb a huge chunk of EXTRA training time. That don't train like that for 4,5,6 or 8 weeks. It's 2-3 weeks of high volume and extra intensity which tears the body down. I'll bet you my brand new renn disc that it's followed by a few reduced training weeks. When properly rested your body will super compensate and be much fitter than when you started or could have achieve through your normal training. I've seen several pro's do this in tucson. One to three weeks and the only time I saw them was when it was dinner time or we were having playstation tourneys. Other weeks I think my dogs got out more then they did.
As for nsaids long term use can be bad, especially if you have a history of prior gastric ulcers, smoking or intolerability. You can get other legal drugs like Prevacid to counterbalance this by reducing the acid your stomach produces.
But tell me this. Who on this board hasn't taken nsaids for 2 or 3 or 4 days in a row.
I graduated college with some people who went on to become athletic trainers and team docs in the NFL. Guess what? the entire team is on something to control pain and inflammation by week 10. You play & sooner or later your body pays.
Do you realize how much caffiene you need to stimulate the CNS to super perform? More than in 3 cups of joe. Your better off taking pseudoephedrine in above recommended doses.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Some time ago, I read an article that quoted Phil Maffetone...training = work+rest. Most of us including myself, equate training = work. The question is "over what period does this equation apply ?". For example let's assume that Gordo and the boys did zero training for three days before Epic Camp, preceded by a "light week of training" and followed the camp by another week of light training/active rest. Then does the equation apply ?



From my understanding of what the guys are trying to achieve at Epic camp, they are pushing themselves over the edge, but hopefully just to a point where their bodies can overcompensate and come back stronger, not permanently break down. Clearly, this high stakes approach has worked for Molina in his youth and many Molina coached athletes who have the luxury of "coming back stronger" after this training with perhaps a relaxed set of comittments outside tris.

Gordo has proven himself that it has worked in the past. It worked for Molina and the big 4 in the 80s. Personally, I would not push in training to the point of having to make it through with NSAIDs, caffeine and other "outside assistance", but I do not make a living doing endurance sport. Its just recreation !

I think it depends upon other things how much cumulative stress you have in a particular week. I believe in the stress + rest = improved performance theory as well. Everybody has a point of no return. I think one has to look long term and short term at the same time. for 12 days or so they destroyed themselves then allowed themselves X number of days to recover. short term it was probably crossing the line but long term they are able to recover. 2 weeks might kill me but 3-4 days high volume, 1-2 days easy, 3-4 days high intensity might be perfect for me over 9 days or so. This past week while in vegas for work I was getting in at 2 and 3am sleeping to 6:30am then working 10hr days. That was a bit too much stress which didn't bite me in the arse until yesterday after climbing for 17 miles. I'm sick and feel like shit. On the other hand I'm also up 3 or 4 tufo tubulars from blackjack.

I'd suggest on long weekends playing with your training. maybe the next 3 day weekend you ride 4 hrs per day, run 2x per day or swim 5k in the morning and 3-5k in the evening. take 3-4 days easy and see what happens.

As for the decongestant I'm not allowed at groups training sessions w/out it. I've glued bikes to the road and watched the riders tumble while the bike remains perfectly upright.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Goodtime...you said...

"Ironman triathlons and most triathlons are not real professional sports. Just as in radio control airplanes there is prize money for some events but they are for the most part staged for fun."

Gee... Goodtime... You need to hurry up and enlightened the Sponsors who fork over hundreds of thousands of dollars every year to support a NON-PRO sport. It's been a while since I read something sooo wrong.

you also noted... "(wasn't triathlon an exhibition sport?)." Man... you need to do your homework.

And, yes - using drugs to enhance performance is a bad idea... regardless of being a professional sport or not...

Joe Moya

uli posted the same message on gordo's forum. I answered it there. You can read my answer at this address:

http://www.coachgordo.com/...config.pl?read=50831

Scott is a funny man. His writings on Slowtwitch are laced with subtle humor. Restraint of pen and tongue is not a bad thing -- especially if you plan to take on someone's character in a second language. As far as campers thinking they were cool for doing volume -- we were too busy having fun and too worried that our sacks would fall off from long rides to be thinking like that.

kp

Crash Training 101

Friel TTB, p.244-246 in my edition talks about the benefits of crash training.

To summarize, a 1992 study of Dutch cyclists had training volume increase from 12.5hrs/week to 17.5 hrs/week and time training at intensity from 23% to 63% of total training time for a 2-week period. During the cycle all aspects of fitness declined. This was followed by 2 recovery weeks. The result of this crash cycle? An average increase in power output of 6%, a decrease in TT times of 4%, and a decrease in lactate levels as compared to pre-crash levels.

Now, a number of you are complaining the Epic Camper's "aren't recovering." They have a chiropracter, a massage therapist, people preparing healthy meals, good sleep, and no day job. I could only dream that I could recover in this manner. Even so, here is what Friel says about overtraining and the crash cycle.





Friel's guidelines for a crash cycle consist of the following:

1. less than 3 weeks

2. prioritize intensity over volume (you mean the hammerfests described in the journals are benefitial? YES)

3. short crash of 5-7 days - actively recover for 5-7 days. longer crash of 14-21 days - actively recover for 7-11 days

Thus, Epic Camp Meets all the requirements laid out by Friel on building a crash cycle. Now that we've all learned something, I'm going to return to ignoring this forum.

Cheers.

Thanks for the Friel qoute. It seems amazing to me that you can crash for 2 weeks without rest and come back from it stronger. It is counter-intuitive to rest for a week.

From an earlier post:
>>But tell me this. Who on this board hasn't taken nsaids for 2 or 3 or 4 days in a row.
I haven't taken nsaids or similar ever due to normal training, not a single dose let alone for several days straight. I probably took them once to help heal an overtraining injury (used 1 dose in conjuction with ice and rest). Before you go down the route that I'm not training hard, my base periods build to 20 hours and I've run a handful of marathons so I've experienced some soreness.

I have a few comments on some of the posts:

I´m a great fan of both Molina and Gordo and only have praise for their coaching, staging Epic Camps and in their writing, telling it like it is. On the comments of this Epic being "too hard", one must realize that the guys pushing pace like Björn Andersson and Clas Björling are superior and experienced athletes in their prime and, during a certain period like 12 days, absorb a huge volume AND some excessive quality/tempo. I know that they, and Gordo and Molina, are very aware of the risks of combining both intensity and volume at the same time but this is only for a very short period and followed by a recoveryweek. If you can bounce back from that kind of training, you will likely find yourself on a higher level of fitness. Too much and you go into overtraining

-However, training while sick or feeling ill is just BAD. 10 yrs ago, Swedens then best IM-athlete died during a workout. Autopsy showed multiple scars on the heart, very likely from several inflammations on the cardiac muscle from training with illness. There have been quite a few similar incidents in Sweden since then, a lot of them on highly trained competetive athletes and most of then have in some way been connected to training with illness.

TripleThreat wrote in his first post that he have had great workouts on days "he shouldn´t have trained" and if M Jordan can play basketball with the flu, "you can run a few miles"...My question is: Why would you want too? My notion of good training is training that ultimately makes you better, not training for the sake of it.. The reason one can have a great workout even when feeling generally crappy is only because the body is sensing a coming on-slaught of illness and is on red alert, all systems mobilizing force to respond to the illness. That workout is just going to make it harder for your body to fight back from whatever is coming. Same goes with training while sick, if you´re lucky enough to not damage your general health, you´ll in any place prolong your illness

What is "too sick to train"? Any fever or sore throat is a no-no. Any feeling of general illness, unnormal soreness or fatigue or bad stomach is a no-no. OK for me would be a runny nose or a dry cough with no other symptoms. Do I want to workout or not? If I don´t, there´s generally something wrong. I´ve done mistakes in this matter many times in the past as I guess all ambitious athletes do but in hindsight the signs have been there every time. I´ve just not been smart enough to read them but as I grow older I hope I´ve developed my intuition more and dropped some of my ego:)

-Training with NSAIDs and caffeine. First, caffeine is off the IOC list of banned substances so I guess it´s OK to down as many Red Bulls as possible. I don´t think it is a very good idea to in the long run use painkillers on a daily basis. I´m sure Molina doesn´t do that either, but the guy knows what will help him through a rough patch in training and isn´t shying anything away in his trainingreports. I mean, the guy´s been doing triathlon since 1977 or so for Cripes sake so I wouldn´t question his judgement on this matter of what he´ll need to get through yet another 7-hr day during Epic. However, I don´t think it´s alltogether healthy and I doubt that he would recommend that to any recreational athlete either.

Desert Dude has a post referring to people he knows working with NFL teams and them being on NSAIDs. I doubt that any of those guys would come even close to passing a regular drugtest. NHL, NFL and pro-baseball is a far cry from triathlon (I hope!) in terms of illegal substances. It´s not a coincidence that these organizations have their own pathetic drug-policy where they supposedly do tests but as long as their athletes aren´t submitted to open testing by IOC/WADA or others it´s a true joke-

All in all:

-train with a purpose, a reason. Train to excel, don´t train for the sake of training

-balance fitness and health. don´t let health take a backseat to fitness

-never base training on prestige

Why would you want too?

It actually helps me get over the illness. I don't know if it's the light sweat or the increased blood flow (or both) that gets rid of some toxins or what. Obivously, MJ does it for a different reason than me.

Again, I'm talking if you have a cold, some fatigue, nothing that has been "hanging around for a coupla weeks". I'm not talking if you have mono, an incredibly swolen throat, high fever, excrutiating pain, etc. We're talking about traning while "sick" or "ill" without defining sick or ill.

I'm cautious about taking a day off everytime I don't feel "right", b/c my body will recognize that and always seem to have a "reason" for me not to train. My cutoff is a fever. If I have fever, I won't train.

As for pain killers, I've taken a few before a game where my arm was killing me (baseball pitcher). Why? Because I'd rather be on the mound with a sore arm, then on the bench with a sore arm. Granted training for myself and playing for a team are 2 different things.

I haven't been sick in like the last 2 years or so. If I were sick, it would depend on [1] how sick I was, [2] how close I was to my main event, and [3] my current rate of progress (If I'm gaining like crazy, I keep training, If I'm maintaining, I'm more likely to consider a day off)

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Edit: I also think a lot of it depends on your personality. I like to "bully" myself ... especially when I feel I'm starting to get sick, I give myself the ol "Oh don't give that I'm gonna get sick crap, boo-friggin-hoo" and train (most likely at a lower intensity). I guess I came to a conclusion, that I'm never gonna feel perfect, so if I don't feel "abosultely horrible", I can train.

I love this quote, "The last time I felt 100%? Probably when I was 17" -- Curt Schilling

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --