i'm kinda with you on the bottle being a bending of the rules

however, its a good sort of bending. its progress without any inherent downsides. fairings are cheap, easy ways to go faster. HED Jet wheels for instance. Science Bless them!

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

as soon as zzip finishes the tribar prototype I'm definitely mounting one of those guys on.

Too low for 99% of riders? Really?

Negative comments in general are not very interesting.I am sure there are unlimited # of folks who have little use for the P4.I will undoubtedly continue to use my Titanflex for the 3 to 4 ironmen I do each year.Nevertheless I have been extremely excited about the P4 and will sell my P3-have already ordered a new one. I find it the most fascinating new technology in years (maybe like Tom Demerley).

you will be able to use a standard cage and bottle on this bike.

Putting an aerobottle in front and regular cages in, instead of the fairings, how much aero advantage is left over?

Large bento with big aerodynamic advantage.


I'm all ears- tell me more. How many turkey legs will it hold?

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If I don't, who will? -Me
It's like being bipolar in opinion is a requirement around here. -TripleThreat

Are you sure those are not reasons to justify not able to afford one.

there was a frame in the late 80s/early 90s ridden by harold robinson pro triathlete- called Trimble. entire frame was filled in (like a solid fairing covering the diamond frame- and Trimble was the first company to mount saddle bottle cages- b/c no place on the frame would hold the bottles. also there was a 'small door' in the frame- that held some tools/energy stuff- whatever you wanted to put inside it. not sure how aero this frame every was.

one regular cage. no idea as to aerodynamics. but it's a good option for training as the cervelo aero bottle is only 570 ml or slightly under 20 ounces... that's smaller than a regular sized specialized water bottle...

sounds like this bike is going to be really problematic for your type of triathlons... maybe other triathletes will agree and you won't see any of these... NOT

as to bottle placement... most triathletes with aero frames don't ride aerodynamically and have a christmas tree assortmant of bottle 'ornaments' festooning their bikes.

fairings? hmmm- you ever see a disc wheel... COVER? what about aero wheels with fairings- like HED Jet, mavic cosmics, Hed 3 deep, etc.

sounds like the grapes are ready for wine or is that whine?

There are only three reasons why I will NOT buy a Cervelo P4 (or anyother Cervelo for that matter) -

1. The headtube is way too short for my body type

2. They will look the same as every other Cervelo P4 in transition (as does every other cervelo in transition), way too many of them on the road. I like to be different

3. I just ordered a Look 596 (white), don't think I'll be seeing too many of these around : ) And the headtube is more my size!!

: )

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Paul

Ditto...#1 Should have been because I can't.

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"There is no charge for awesomeness or attractiveness." Po "The Dragon Warrior", Kung-Fu Panda

I dont wan tone because I have never been impressed by their service or product in comparison to Elite or QR... Both of whom ar at the forefront of the industry IMHO. Cervelo will never be a possibility for me due to their poor history... in comparison to those above...

Weeman

Just because he doesn't like the "newest greatest" consumer product he's somehow just jealous? Give me a break.

ps. you know nothing of the financial status of the op. for all we know he/she can afford 10 p4's.

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Team Medique Powered by Silber Investments

Freedom of Speech.

Do any of us really care why he doesn't want one? Isn't the purpose of the forum to provoke discussion, collaboration, lying, cheating and stealing.

Heck, I can even call you an idiot or Mrs. Poopy-Face if I wanted to...

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"There is no charge for awesomeness or attractiveness." Po "The Dragon Warrior", Kung-Fu Panda

you are talking nonsense...

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Team Medique Powered by Silber Investments

I think the fairing thing is an issue, reading the rules:

1.3.011 Any device, added or blended into the structure, that destined to decrease resistance to air penetra-tion or artificially to accelerate propulsion, such as a protective screen, fuselage form of fairing or the like, shall be prohibited.

I think pretty much all of the aero bikes - are bending or breaking the rules.

actually none of those devices even remotely "accelerate propulsion"

lol

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Remember that responsible manufacturers get UCI and USAT approval in hand before executing designs. Building within the broadest interpretation of the rules is simply elegant and insightful engineering.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

they do "decrease resistance to air penetra-tion",

i don't think the water bottle thing constitutes a fairing, as it serves an actual purpose as a water bottle but has an aerdynamic shape and placement (although profile, years ago, had to cancel an aerobottle on the bars that would have been very effective. i think a size restriction was put into place that made it illegal).

i do question the removable cover over the rear brake. it is not necessary, is not structural, and serves no purpose other than to improve the shape to reduce resistance and thus is a fairing around the brake. gt vengeance riders had to remove the seatpost covers on their areo bikes for this reason in many races back when the bikes were new and judges decided that the only purpose was to serve as a fairing around the round post for aerodynamic gain.

the fairing ruling has been that it is okay to make a structure or component more aerodynamic, but it is not okay to use a non structural add on to shield a part of the bike from the airflow. the ruling does specifically exempt wheel covers.

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"that which does not destroy me will only make me stronger" Frederick Nietzsche
andrew peabody
http://BREAKAWAYMULTISPORT.COM

For sure, they wouldnt go to the trouble if they could not get the bike into races, I am all for good clever design.

I think that when the rules were set out the aim was that the general public would not think that some guy is winning just because he has a better bike.

When manufactures make claims that there bike is 30 seconds faster than others over 40km, then one can start to think that maybe some guy is winning because of the bike. This probably has not happened since Mr Boardman was riding his lotus.

There must be a lot of age groupers who have lost places because someone else has afforded a more efficient bike. And a lot of age groupers who think they would be doing better on a better bike. So I guess this means cervelo will sell a lot of P4's..

Interesting post and interesting points. I'll argue a little different perspective since I am giddy as a schoolgirl over this new bike and can't wait until mine arrives and I race on it the first time. Enthusiasm over this has even re-envigorated my training going into this off season. I had a few stinging (mini) defeats this year and perhaps a redoubled approach to training combined with some new technology might prevent that in the '09 season...

So:

"1. The bottle concept does not fit to the way I approach Ironman (I need to carry whatever stuff is handed out at aid stations, gatorade, powerbar ... whatever)"

You're probably right here, and that is the reason that when I decide to do Ironman again I am going to try to figure a way to do it with absolute minimal load on the bike. Remember though, the aerobottle on P4 is designed to be "filled-on-the-fly" from standard aid station bottles. With the exception of Florida the Ironman distance races east of the Mississippi are hilly. It's important to start out with a light bike. It has never made sense to me to buy a nice light, aero tri bike then festoon it with literally 2-4 pounds (I've weighed it- you'll see soon...) of "special" fluids and fuels and spares and whatnot. When we banter over a gram of drag taping a gel to the top tube is a calamity. The aid stations come every 10-12 miles at Ironman. It is the best catered century ride we'll ever do. My evolving strategy for Ironman nutrition/hydration is going fast and light and making use of the aid stations. Better for the stuff to sit on an aid station table for my use when I get there than travel 20+ miles strapped to my bike where I have to lug over all the hills at Wisconsin, Lake Placid or Louisville.

"2. If I use an aerobottle, the advantage of the narrow steering tube is lost"

You lost me on this one since the entire bike is narrow. Additionally, adding the bottle makes the whole thing more aerodynamic than leaving it off. Still don't like the bottle? Plug in the carbon fiber frame stiffner and put two cages behind the saddle or use an aerodrink system on the bars or, for best aerodynamics, a bottle mounted horizontally between the aerobar extensions. While these options are viable, none are as aerodynamic as simply using the integrated aerobottle- that is more aero than a bike by itself with nothing.

"3. The integrated bottle IMHO is "unfair" as it is obviously an aerodynamic fairing"

Firstly, its exclusive purpose is not a fairing, it is firstly to carry water- which would be carried anyway and generally in some cobbled up afterthought thing that mimics a Three Stooges plumbing project or a porcupine stuck to your butt. Two key points: 1. We need to carry at least enough drinks on our bikes to get from one aid station to the next, about 10-12 miles worth or about 20 oz. and, 2. Since #1 is true we may as well do it in the most elegant way while preserving or, the the case of the P4, actually improving aerodynamics. We have to carry the stuff anyway, why not carry it in the best way possible?

Finally on this point of yours, this isn't "one class" racing as in auto racing or sailboats. Technology and judicious use of it is part of the sport within the rules that govern equipment, and the P4 falls within those rules.

4. I have no idea, how "aero" the bike is, when you mount bottles in a way suitable for ironman

If "a way suitable for Ironman" means anything other than just using the aeorbotle integrated into the bike then, I agree, neither do I. However, it wouldn't make much sense to buy one of these then hang a bunch of "hydration systems" all over it. Perhaps a well placed behind the saddle mount such as a Beaker, XLab or Grammo IFR and then carry your spares in the conformal "bento box" spares carrier that replaces the conformal aero water bottle and you have all your spares and two water bottles in what may (I don't know yet) be a reasonably aeordynamic configuration. Or, if you have done Ironman five times already and are willing to take some calculated risks in exchange for a potential P.R. at the distance simply develop and test a nutrition/hydration strategy that only uses the aero bottle and go for it. Both ideas are viable with practice and planning. Both ideas could very well save you time at the Ironman distance.

"5. The geometry is too agressive for my needs (5.00 rider, using an old QR caliente with a 12,3cm steering tube and a 1cm spacer) "

You might want to recheck this as the geometry is proven for at least three years now on several thousand bikes and many, many Ironman wins- I think nearly 50 wins on Cervelo so far at Ironman distance. The geometry is the same on the P4 as the P3 in all sizes and the P2 in size 51cm. You are a full 1/2 hour faster than me and maybe a decade or so younger and I've done Ironman on a P3 with a good bike split (averaged 20 M.P.H.) for me and I was comfortable the whole time. I had one 1cm spacer under my stem. Also, if you compare the head tube height of your Caliente (size small = 85 mm, medium = 110 mm and large 150 mm) you will see it isn't much different than a P4: Head tubes- 51cm = 90 mm, 54cm = 105 mm and 58cm = 145 mm). In some cases the P4 geometry is actually less "aggressive" than the Caliente and, since the Caliente has a fixed 77 degree seat tube angle (only 76.5 in size large) without an adustable fore/aft seatpost head it is actually more aggressive than the P4 since the angle between the femur and the torso at a slacker seat angle (Caliente) would be marginally more "closed" or aggresive than it would on a P4. Short story: It''s easier to get lower while staying more open and relaxed on a P4 than most other geometries. This has nothing to do with the P4 and eveything to do with Cervelo's aerodynamic rider position geometry- proven from the Tour de France to the Olympics to Ironman- their stock geometry. It has worked effectively over an ultra-wide range of athletes from 55+ age groupers to Fabian Cancellara, a tall man, to Kristen Armstrong, a medium sized female. It is simply geometry that works well for more people riding in the aero position. Proven by results.

I've never seen a phenomenon like this before in the bike industry. Someone on this forum said it well a couple days ago: "If you don't like it, don't buy it". We buy bikes for many reasons- it doesn't have to be the answer to a math problem. Part of why we buy bikes is emotional. If the product doesn't speak to you don't give it a second thought.

Then again, if it is eating away at you that this thing may just be the 30-45 seconds you need off your next Olympic bike split (albeit for a few thousand bucks) then you may consider it. If you'd do anything to go a few minutes faster at Ironman this may help.

A buddy of mine missed qualifying for Kona at Louisville by 6 seconds. There are any number of things he could have done to get back that six seconds that range from simply transitioning faster to peeing quicker. Buying a new P4 to replace his older, lower tech bike may also be one of them....

It's admittedly is not for everyone and no one is saying it has to be. Heck, there already aren't enough P4's to go around.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com