Why Cheating Matters

Nov 9, 12 6:03

Post #1 of 168 (9905 views)

I was late to the party yesterday, but found it striking that there was some mixed opinion on whether or not cheating matters, particularly if executed by MOP and BOP athletes. The answer is that it does matter, always. I am not a judgmental person -- after-all, how can I be, I wake up at 4:30 most mornings to spend 2 hours on a machine that makes my outdoor bike an indoor one starring at a white wall listening to MUSE -- so I kind of live by the statement, "Swing your arms all you want, so long as they don't hit me." If you want to take EPO to enhance your speed or cut pre-plotted courses during your own, individually staged events (e.g., training) that is fine, you are swinging your arms, but not hitting me. But, if you sign up for an organized event with a set of rules and break them, you are now swinging your arms and hitting me...even if I finish 10 and you finish 2010. Why? Because someone finished 2011, and someone didn't finish at all. Moreover and more broadly, you are ruining the integrity and structure of the sport. I have come to love this sport and community, and thus take some ownership in it; I don't *ever* want triathlon to become a sport marred by rule-breakers, where great performances are always questioned. Simply put, any type of cheating by any athlete in any organized event dilutes the value of our sport. If you enjoy signing up for and competing in races, then you must be against cheating; it is a set of rules that governs the race which separates it from riding your bike around your neighborhood; once that set of rules becomes moot, there is nothing separating a race from your individual training ride other than the entry fee.

Finally, I've heard more than once that what makes triathlon special is that it is a true test of the human spirit; if we want to keep that at the center of our sport, we must have zero tolerance for any and all cheating. Period.

As for public shaming...it's sad to see, but if it works, then so be it. I still have to imagine that "private shaming" (e.g., the mirror in front of me when brushing my teeth) would be enough, but I guess the fact that it isn't reflects a sad state of honor in this world.

OK. Back to my usual posting on why a 20 minute CP > 60 minute, and trying to figure out which local race has better organization!

*********************************************
Brad Stulberg
Author, Peak Performance
http://www.BradStulberg.com

Re: Why Cheating Matters [Bstulberg] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 12 6:10

Post #2 of 168 (9854 views)

Re: Why Cheating Matters [Bstulberg] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 12 6:11

Post #3 of 168 (9848 views)

Yep.

Re: Why Cheating Matters [Bstulberg] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 12 6:13

Post #4 of 168 (9833 views)

I agree, as a guy who has often placed dead last in races from tris to runs to a 5k ows. I was once in a small local 5k where I saw a young woman cut the course by a couple hundred yards just so she could catch up with her friends who were faster, then.they strolled in together. I was at the back, behind all this, and I promised myself tha matter. Hiw fat and sow I was, the course cutter was not going to place higher that. Day. It took me a long time to finally catch up, which sucked as they were walking and. i was "running." But eventually I did, and I PR'ed that day. I couldn't show up on race day if I was embarrassed by being BOP every time, and I'm obsessed with how much faster everyone else is. but if you cut the course, even in a 5k, you have my full attention, and not in a good way.

===================================
I'll tell you all right now, my seat is too low, I'm not aero and I carry too much fluid on the bike.

Last edited by: RunFatboyRun: Nov 9, 12 6:14

Re: Why Cheating Matters [Bstulberg] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 12 6:20

Post #5 of 168 (9797 views)

I still find it interesting to relate to a sport like golf. Each is very individualistic and atleast at the highest levels usually have a official following them (officials obviously come and go during tri's).

A golfer just recently who was playing at the qualifying school/tournament for the PGA tour. The player thought he hit a leaf on his swing and caused it to move, and his own caddie swore it didnt. So he decided to assess himself a 1 stroke penalty. At the end of the day, he made the cut....all is well right!

Well he was telling the story to his friend a week later, and his friend said dude that's a 2 stroke penalty. The golfer called the PGA and disqualified himself for signing an incorrect score card. That's a sport that atleast *seems* to have alot of high integrity even at the highest of levels. And I'm not saying we dont have that in tri's or other sports, just an interesting dynamic.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Re: Why Cheating Matters [Bstulberg] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 12 6:39

Post #6 of 168 (9723 views)

Totally agree. Once you decide to hold a race, the integrity of the results are paramount. When cheaters destroy the integrity of the results, it's not just like riding on your own... it creates all sorts of negative emotion amongst both the competitors and observers. Just look at cycling.

The argument that catching FOP cheaters is really important but we should not waste our time with MOP or BOP cheaters does not make sense. Where do you draw the FOP line? It also belittles the goals and accomplishments of the majority of racers, and if you care about the pros, there would be no sponsors or money without the MOP and BOP athletes as they are the money (and the spirit) in this sport. If they get disenchanted, this sport will die.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Re: Why Cheating Matters [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 12 6:47

Post #7 of 168 (9672 views)

The argument that catching FOP cheaters is really important but we should not waste our time with MOP or BOP cheaters does not make sense. Where do you draw the FOP line? It also belittles the goals and accomplishments of the majority of racers, and if you care about the pros, there would be no sponsors or money without the MOP and BOP athletes as they are the money (and the spirit) in this sport. If they get disenchanted, this sport will die.

__________

I think it's important only because of the limited resources we have in this sport. Obviously we want every race and every racer to be officiated the same equally, but that's just not a real world applicable. So in that sense, when you are dealing with money/prizes, they are the priority. Now sure it may belittle the others or feel left out, but I think that's just a function of having limited officials in triathlon. To think an entire race is going to be officiated proportional and fairly across the board, just isnt realistic.

And I'm not saying that's the way it should be, I'm saying that's the reality of the situation.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Re: Why Cheating Matters [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 12 6:53

Post #8 of 168 (9635 views)

When allocating scarce resources, I totally agree with you. But yesterday when information of a slower cheater did come up, some were arguing that it was a waste of time to worry about it and that because this cheater was not taking money or a Kona spot it does not matter, which I disagree with. That athlete should be DQ'd just like a Kona qualifier should be.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Re: Why Cheating Matters [Bstulberg] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 12 6:53

Post #9 of 168 (9631 views)

Well said, I agree 100%. Its hard for me to understand how people actually defended the cheating in the latest post. This whole feel good attitude shared by some about cheating doesn't matter if your mop/bop in my opinion is chicken shit. Why are you scared to call someone out who has clearly broken the rules? It might not impact me directly but I think it impacts our sport. We shouldn't tolerate it at any level. There is no achievement if what you "achieved" was done so cheating. A big thank you to the guys are sportstats for stepping up and helping eliminate cheating.

Last edited by: ffmedic84: Nov 9, 12 6:55

Re: Why Cheating Matters [Bstulberg] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 12 6:58

Post #10 of 168 (9606 views)

'Moreover and more broadly, you are ruining the integrity and structure of the sport. '

True, but I'm more concerned by the 'course cutters' in a broader society. With a 'moral compass' so obvioulsy disabled or non existent how is this reflected in what they are doing at work, in the community, in relationships etc??. Would love to see some research into this but pretty tough for the rersearchers to recruit volunteers I would think :)

.

Re: Why Cheating Matters [Bstulberg] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 12 7:09

Post #11 of 168 (9562 views)

As for public shaming...it's sad to see, but if it works, then so be it. I still have to imagine that "private shaming" (e.g., the mirror in front of me when brushing my teeth) would be enough, but I guess the fact that it isn't reflects a sad state of honor in this world.

I thought this was a great line and worth re-posting.

Unfortunately, in addition to deliberate cheats, I'm afraid there are many who are oblivious. I'm constantly amazed how someone can show up for a ride or race when it's 30 degrees out and they don't have gloves or arm warmers. "Oh, I didn't know it was going to be this cold." Uh, you ride a bike and you don't think to look at the weather either on-line or on TV? I see that kind of obliviosity all the time. And as I race in the older age groups, I worry about coming up against some clown who just asked his doctor about all the ads he's seeing for Low T and got his free trial of Androgel. He's all proud of how he's flying on the bike now, but he wonders why his 4-year old grandkid who he bounces on his knee is already growing a beard.

All these "low T" products being advertised are made to sound like legitimate treatments for legitimate "problems." I put "problems" in quotes because aging is not a problem. It's a natural process. Taking testosterone to reverse the effects of aging is NOT natural and, if you take it and compete (or train), YOU'RE A DAMNED CHEAT!!! -- whether it's deliberate or the result of your obliviosity.

(I know "obliviosity" is probably not a word.)

Re: Why Cheating Matters [ffmedic84] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 12 9:50

Post #12 of 168 (9345 views)

ffmedic84 wrote:

Well said, I agree 100%. Its hard for me to understand how people actually defended the cheating in the latest post. This whole feel good attitude shared by some about cheating doesn't matter if your mop/bop in my opinion is chicken shit. Why are you scared to call someone out who has clearly broken the rules? It might not impact me directly but I think it impacts our sport. We shouldn't tolerate it at any level. There is no achievement if what you "achieved" was done so cheating. A big thank you to the guys are sportstats for stepping up and helping eliminate cheating.

I addition to being solidly BOP like I mentioned, I am also now a coach for the Girls in the Run program. The focus is mostly values, self-esteem, anti-bullying, and it is non-competitive. But with the season's 5k coming up, I am firm with my girls about cutting the course. A couple of them want to try to cut corners for laps at practice to get more in, and I have trying to impress upon them that it doesn't count. In one lesson we gave out a bed for every lap. The cutters didn't get beads for cut laps. A small small thing, but hopefully setting a standard when they are 9 and 10 will have effects when they are older.

===================================
I'll tell you all right now, my seat is too low, I'm not aero and I carry too much fluid on the bike.

Re: Why Cheating Matters [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 12 10:11

Post #13 of 168 (9250 views)

BDoughtie wrote:

I still find it interesting to relate to a sport like golf. Each is very individualistic and atleast at the highest levels usually have a official following them (officials obviously come and go during tri's).

A golfer just recently who was playing at the qualifying school/tournament for the PGA tour. The player thought he hit a leaf on his swing and caused it to move, and his own caddie swore it didnt. So he decided to assess himself a 1 stroke penalty. At the end of the day, he made the cut....all is well right!

Well he was telling the story to his friend a week later, and his friend said dude that's a 2 stroke penalty. The golfer called the PGA and disqualified himself for signing an incorrect score card. That's a sport that atleast *seems* to have alot of high integrity even at the highest of levels. And I'm not saying we dont have that in tri's or other sports, just an interesting dynamic.

""Play the ball as it lies, play the course as you find it, and if you cannot do either, do what is fair. But to do what is fair, you need to know the Rules of Golf.""

Such a classy sport.

__________________________

I tweet!

Re: Why Cheating Matters [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 12 10:15

Post #14 of 168 (9231 views)

A few years ago I was leading a small neighborhood triathlon and was led off course by the Po-lice, then proceeded to continue to make several additional wrong turns. In all, I rode an extra 2-3 miles on what was supposed to be something like a 6 mile bike course. Even though I covered almost 150% of the course distance, I didn't do it on the proper course. I went to the RD and disqualified myself. The rules are the rules.

I don't know how cheaters live with themselves.

__________________________

I tweet!

Re: Why Cheating Matters [bobby11] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 12 10:15

Post #15 of 168 (9231 views)

"And as I race in the older age groups, I worry about coming up against some clown who just asked his doctor about all the ads he's seeing for Low T and got his free trial of Androgel. He's all proud of how he's flying on the bike now, but he wonders why his 4-year old grandkid who he bounces on his knee is already growing a beard.

All these "low T" products being advertised are made to sound like legitimate treatments for legitimate "problems." I put "problems" in quotes because aging is not a problem. It's a natural process. Taking testosterone to reverse the effects of aging is NOT natural and, if you take it and compete (or train), YOU'RE A DAMNED CHEAT!!! -- whether it's deliberate or the result of your obliviosity."

Agree with all of that, as a 55 YO riding with mostly 35-45 YO cyclists. I bust my ass hard to keep up with the younger guys and I do it strictly on nothing but training, although I get dropped regularly. Yet, I know there are some guys my age that are clearly doing 'something'. One season they are doing B/C no-drop rides and the next season they are climbing hills with the studs on the A ride. The rides I do are nothing but LBS rides, so there is nothing on the line per se, aside from pride. But, some of these guys race in local races. I have not had much interest in racing for that very reason. I know I would have to race against guys that are probably getting treated for 'Low T'.

Greg

If you are a Canuck that engages in gratuitous bashing of the US, you are probably on my Iggy List. So, save your self a bunch of typing a response unless you also feel the need to gratuitously bash me. If so, have fun.
"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f___ things up" - Barack Obama, 2020

Re: Why Cheating Matters [bobby11] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 12 10:17

Post #16 of 168 (9219 views)

bobby11 wrote:

(I know "obliviosity" is probably not a word.)

obliviousness

Jed

"If you want to ride by the Force, you had better make sure that you are a real Jedi." - FastYellow (6/13/2011)

Re: Why Cheating Matters [ffmedic84] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 12 10:29

Post #17 of 168 (9156 views)

ffmedic84 wrote:

Well said, I agree 100%. Its hard for me to understand how people actually defended the cheating in the latest post. This whole feel good attitude shared by some about cheating doesn't matter if your mop/bop in my opinion is chicken shit. Why are you scared to call someone out who has clearly broken the rules? It might not impact me directly but I think it impacts our sport. We shouldn't tolerate it at any level. There is no achievement if what you "achieved" was done so cheating. A big thank you to the guys are sportstats for stepping up and helping eliminate cheating.

While it was hard to digest that entire thread, I think most are referring to Power 13's comments. He, as he stated, was not defending the cheating. He was questioning why so many delighted in an internet witch hunt on this girl and no one even so much as questioned the original poster's intent, he of the brand new username and single post. I completely agree with Power13. The girl got caught by SportsStats, was DQ'ed, and called out publicly. The continued piling on was unnecessary. To think that someone could start this anonymously was also worrisome. I hope none of you (or me) ever become the target of some anonymous poster with an axe to grind. In this case, perhaps the public outing was justified, but the next case may not be. There have been plenty of those here too.

Re: Why Cheating Matters [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 12 10:30

Post #18 of 168 (9151 views)

It's not that MOP and BOP cheaters are unimportant. MOP and BOP athletes are the core of triathlon. It's just an economic argument - when there are limited resources, I think it makes more sense to ensure it's a clean race when there is money on the line.

Pride and achievement are obviously important, but if a doper takes my rent money, then I think that needs to take over as the priority. It's a case of one athlete stealing money from another athlete. And right now, there is scant testing at the pro level.

There may also be the argument it makes sense to target the FOP because most of the dopers will be FOP (doping tends to make people faster, of course).

It's not about belittling anyone, it's about allocation of resources to where cheating has the biggest impact and where it is more likely to be found.

Re: Why Cheating Matters [Bstulberg] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 12 10:30

Post #19 of 168 (9151 views)

My guess is that people who cheat don't feel shame the way you or I might; I get the feeling it's more of a game to them, and when they get exposed it's simply game over... oh well, on to the next game

Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

Last edited by: Terra-Man: Nov 9, 12 10:32

Re: Why Cheating Matters [Bstulberg] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 12 10:49

Post #20 of 168 (9087 views)

OP - Absolutely

Now that I have kids, it also changes the optics of the situation. I couldn't imagine how I would feel if my kids found out that I cheated however small. I would rather dnf or finish last. Remembering that for everyone of those people there are thousands that don't. The Triathlon family is usually a very good place.

I will use this opportunity to reference my most recent race. As everyone prob. knows - the Rev3 events allows you to cross the line with your kids/family/whatever. I was only yards ahead of another person in my age group. He could have easily slipped by me at the finishers chute but I saw him ease off as i grabbed my kids to cross the line. Classy move. I didn't get a chance to give him a 'nod of recognition'

Rev3 Florida Bib 261. Cheers dude!

"what we do in life, echoes in eternity"

Re: Why Cheating Matters [bluemonkeytri] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 12 10:56

Post #21 of 168 (9054 views)

bluemonkeytri wrote:

The girl got caught by SportsStats, was DQ'ed, and called out publicly. The continued piling on was unnecessary.

As is usually the case...the cover up was what really got her. She could have just kept her mouth shut, not said anything, and it would probably have passed. By engaging the "hunt" she invited more scrutiny. Going back and looking at her posts over the past few months was quite telling. Just a few months ago she joked about only swimming one loop on two different occasions and in two different threads. It became quite obvious that her plan to cheat was hatched long ago...again the attempted cover up made the whole thing worse.

I say bring on the piling on. If you results are legit then you'll be able to stand by them 100% and provide all the facts to back them up. If you cheat, you know you can't do that and you also know that you risk being exposed and publicly humiliated. Seems like a good deterrent to me.

Re: Why Cheating Matters [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 12 10:58

Post #22 of 168 (9046 views)

I understand that you rode additional miles, but did you cover the six-mile race course, too?

Re: Why Cheating Matters [Saundo] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 12 10:59

Post #23 of 168 (9035 views)

Saundo wrote:

OP - Absolutely

Now that I have kids, it also changes the optics of the situation. I couldn't imagine how I would feel if my kids found out that I cheated however small. I would rather dnf or finish last. Remembering that for everyone of those people there are thousands that don't. The Triathlon family is usually a very good place.

I will use this opportunity to reference my most recent race. As everyone prob. knows - the Rev3 events allows you to cross the line with your kids/family/whatever. I was only yards ahead of another person in my age group. He could have easily slipped by me at the finishers chute but I saw him ease off as i grabbed my kids to cross the line. Classy move. I didn't get a chance to give him a 'nod of recognition'

Rev3 Florida Bib 261. Cheers dude!

"what we do in life, echoes in eternity"

I Can't do a Rev3, ain't got no kids for the finish line. But hey, maybe some enterprising individual could rent race day kids to run down
the finish line chute with. Of course with me they'd need to be about 30 years old to be believable.

Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

Re: Why Cheating Matters [gregtryin] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 12 10:59

Post #24 of 168 (9035 views)

gregtryin wrote:

Agree with all of that, as a 55 YO riding with mostly 35-45 YO cyclists. I bust my ass hard to keep up with the younger guys and I do it strictly on nothing but training, although I get dropped regularly. Yet, I know there are some guys my age that are clearly doing 'something'. One season they are doing B/C no-drop rides and the next season they are climbing hills with the studs on the A ride. The rides I do are nothing but LBS rides, so there is nothing on the line per se, aside from pride. But, some of these guys race in local races. I have not had much interest in racing for that very reason. I know I would have to race against guys that are probably getting treated for 'Low T'.

I applaud that your integrity to ride clean, but I don't share your skepticism. There are a lot of people with natural talent who go years with haphazard training, nutrition and discipline. I've personally had a wide variance in ability over the years, mostly based on time commitments with a young family, but I would hate for someone to characterize my rapid regain of fitness as aided by drugs. I've known other people who are very trainable but from season to season they could either be in the laughing group or setting the tone of the race/ride at the front. The only way I would cast suspicion would be if someone has been training seriously for 3 or more years with gradual improvement and then they have a huge breakthrough, but even so I'm prone to give the benefit of the doubt.

Re: Why Cheating Matters [Bstulberg] [ In reply to ]

Nov 9, 12 11:05

Post #25 of 168 (9016 views)

And this is exactly why can not watch pro soccer anymore! At least in tri/cycling/running people *attempt* to be sneaky about the cheating but try watching a pro soccer game it's bloody tragic! They have 14,000 cameras with slow motion replay and they still dive all over the place and it is CHEATING! It drives me nucking futs because the governing body does nothing about it. In fact it is accepted as being "part of the game". Thankfully no form of cheating in tri is accepted here! Keep up the good fight ST.

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