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Which training response?
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On the menu is standard 5x5min Vo2max bike intervals in Erg mode. My normal cadence is around 85.

This is what happens: I start out happy and excited with cadence 90+, HR reaches Vo2max range after about 1-1.5m, start feeling the burn in legs. Last minute(s) the cadence drops to sub 70 but HR and power is high and constant (92%+)

What exactly is happening here from a training adaptation, I train the vo2max (as confirmed through high HR and power) but what is the physical impact of the lower cadence at this point of the interval? Do I improve the lactate transportation / utilization (Vlamax) while maintaining the Vo2max benefit (leg burn is massive)

To me it would make limited sense to lower the power just to maintain the cadence if that would lead to lower HR (since the purpose of the session is Vo2max development).

Appreciate input!
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Re: Which training response? [Financier] [ In reply to ]
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Financier wrote:
On the menu is standard 5x5min Vo2max bike intervals in Erg mode. My normal cadence is around 85.

This is what happens: I start out happy and excited with cadence 90+, HR reaches Vo2max range after about 1-1.5m, start feeling the burn in legs. Last minute(s) the cadence drops to sub 70 but HR and power is high and constant (92%+)

What exactly is happening here from a training adaptation, I train the vo2max (as confirmed through high HR and power) but what is the physical impact of the lower cadence at this point of the interval? Do I improve the lactate transportation / utilization (Vlamax) while maintaining the Vo2max benefit (leg burn is massive)

To me it would make limited sense to lower the power just to maintain the cadence if that would lead to lower HR (since the purpose of the session is Vo2max development).

Appreciate input!

No idea, but I can ask a question that might help the others........do you successfully finish each rep and all sets? Do you just 'almost' finish the last set but fail, which is OK as it means a good target. Or do you bonk out and can't finish reps and don't finish at least 4 of the sets?
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Re: Which training response? [Financier] [ In reply to ]
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Financier wrote:
On the menu is standard 5x5min Vo2max bike intervals in Erg mode. My normal cadence is around 85.

This is what happens: I start out happy and excited with cadence 90+, HR reaches Vo2max range after about 1-1.5m, start feeling the burn in legs. Last minute(s) the cadence drops to sub 70 but HR and power is high and constant (92%+)

What exactly is happening here from a training adaptation, I train the vo2max (as confirmed through high HR and power) but what is the physical impact of the lower cadence at this point of the interval? Do I improve the lactate transportation / utilization (Vlamax) while maintaining the Vo2max benefit (leg burn is massive)

When you say high HR how high?

Just bc you're in VO2max power doesn't mean you're getting a vo2max response

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Which training response? [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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Yes indeed I finish off the reps but with significantly lower cadence, it literally comes to a grind in the end. So yes I feel satisfied but then started to think that I might not be doing it correct.
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Re: Which training response? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Yes Brian, as mentioned I am easily in Vo2max range of 92%+of HR max (and I do finish of all of the planned reps) but the grind is real towards the end. How do you interpret this?
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Re: Which training response? [Financier] [ In reply to ]
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Have you tried repeating the session out of erg mode, where you are able to control cadence to more where you would like it, and still hit target hr and power?
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Re: Which training response? [philg] [ In reply to ]
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one thing to remember about erg mode is that it is power feedback, so if the cadence drops then the pedal force must increase to maintain the same power, whereas higher cadence means lower pedal force. Also heart rate to this sort of thing is a strange brew. Typically the higher your cadence the higher your heart rate in response because you are taxing that system, where when lower cadence you are using your muscular system more. I am no expert but Chris Carmichael described this with respect to high cadence climbing using the different energy systems. Power was the same but high cadence vs low cadence stressed different systems. One of the physiologists on here may be able to fill in my gaps.
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Re: Which training response? [philg] [ In reply to ]
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Yes Phil I have tried with similar result, just somehow “easier” in erg mode to hang on the pedals. How does this impact your question? If result was different?
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Re: Which training response? [s5100e] [ In reply to ]
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This is another way of putting my question - maintained hr and power but low vs high cadence. What is the different training adaptation/response?

As stated the purpose of the session is to develop Vo2max.
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Re: Which training response? [Financier] [ In reply to ]
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I was just wondering if you found it easier to keep on top of it out of erg mode.
My way of thinking, rightly or wrongly, is if your cadence is dropping by quite a significant amount during the interval is that it’s not been done as intended.
5 mins at v02max isn’t or shouldn’t be massively difficult (focussed definitely!!) that you’re pegging by the end, yet your recovery time between each rep sounds like that’s enough.
Maybe try 4 min intervals, without dropping recovery time, but do an extra 1 and see if that’s enough to allow you to do it without resorting to a mallfest. Then use it as a bridge to the 5*5.

Or try holding the lower rpm for all and see what happens?

Personally I don’t use erg, I prefer to make myself work to the “zwift terrain”.
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Re: Which training response? [philg] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks interesting thought.

The problem with 4 min intervals is that I will get less total time at or above what gives a Vo2max response given it always takes at least a minute to reach the Vo2max level. Maybe a solution would be to do a 4 minute but to start way higher (reach Vo2max quicker) then go below what I would for a 5 minute and then hold on. Like an “over” “under” approach.

Oh, I would not be able to do more than 1 full interval with 55 cadence at those power levels :)
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Re: Which training response? [Financier] [ In reply to ]
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Learn to pedal your bike yourself and not have the workout pushed to you. A big part of generating power is the neuromuscular coordination, you lose that when you use ergo. Don't use ergo from any effort above Sweet Spot is my recommendation. The burning of the legs suggest you were generating Lactate. The aerobic system uptakes that lactate and uses it for aerobic energy. A higher cadence use more Slowtwitch muscle fiber which will use more of the lactate as energy. I like my athletes to learn to do Vo2 efforts at 90 rpms and higher. There is a lot more to this than described above but this is short version of how I apply it.

BoulderCyclingCoach.com
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Re: Which training response? [rockdude] [ In reply to ]
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Yes there is valid debate to be had erg vs not but not the topic of this thread.

I am using erg and for sure I was generating lactate (which is not bad per se). From a physiological point of view what training adaptation (or not) do I get by gradually reducing the cadence but still maintaining hr and power (well into the Vo2max range)?
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Re: Which training response? [Financier] [ In reply to ]
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Financier wrote:
I am easily in Vo2max range of 92%+of HR max (and I do finish of all of the planned reps)........How do you interpret this?

are you getting > 92-93% hr response?

how much total time out of your 25min at intensity do you think you're actually getting at >92%?


that should be enough info for you (or anyone) to evaluate if their vo2max intervals are really vo2max intervals or just really hard intervals and/or they need to change their really hard intervals to actual vo2max intervals

(

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Mar 26, 21 7:20
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Re: Which training response? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Since it takes a minute to reach vo2max I would say around 20min in total at or above 92%.

Cadence is irrelevant and changes as described does not impact the Vo2max session? I just suspect that this lactate flood through low cadence must mean something compared to spinning at 90 cadence, no?
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Re: Which training response? [Financier] [ In reply to ]
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Let me ask you this (and yes cadence can mean/impact different things and if you can not sustain your cadence that's another issue we can chat about.) (also there is a time to erg and a time to not erg which can be debated in a different thread)

what's the most important thing you're looking to get out of your vo2max intervals?

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: Which training response? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Objective is clear: increase the maximal oxygen uptake as proxied through Vo2max/ml/kg

If I get other adaptations through my intervals as described I am curious to find out and also why.

Thanks for your engagement
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Re: Which training response? [Financier] [ In reply to ]
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All work creates adaptations, the question is are those the adaptations that you desire. If you do low cadence vo2 intervals means you will adapt to doing low cadence vo2 intervals. The kind of work you do is what you adapt to and become better at. It follows the principle of specificity that states that Training should be relevant and appropriate to the event for which the individual is training in order to produce the desired effect. There is a time an place for low cadence work, and I have believes in how ergo should and should not be used. All of this folds into the athletes physiology, they goals, strengths and weakness. How you use this and how it creates the desires you want gets complicated and ventures into the coaching realm.

BoulderCyclingCoach.com
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Re: Which training response? [Financier] [ In reply to ]
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My thought is:

You are taxing 2 systems that work together, respiratory and muscular. Generally, lower cadences tax the muscles more and higher cadences tax the respiratory more. What I think is happening is you are maxing out your respiratory system, so to continue the rep at that wattage, your cadence lowers to shift the stress more to the muscles and relieves the respiratory system a bit.

Now you might say "Well my HR never maxed out." While we all have max HR's, fatigue and other stresses can limit us physically reaching max HR. So, you could have been pretty close to your max HR for that day, which is why this happens.

If you are switching like this, I would say you are too fatigued or the wattage is too high

Just my 0.02. Also, I ride inside 98% of all my training and all my inside riding is in ERG mode. I love it and find it to be an extremely useful tool.
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Re: Which training response? [Financier] [ In reply to ]
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Financier wrote:
Objective is clear: increase the maximal oxygen uptake as proxied through Vo2max/ml/kg

If I get other adaptations through my intervals as described I am curious to find out and also why.

Thanks for your engagement

I think what DD is getting at is what is the ultimate training objective of training your VO2max at this point? Is VO2max relevant to the types of events you will be doing, or is it currently limiting you in some way?

Oh, and VO2max isn't a proxy for maximal oxygen uptake. It's literally the definition of it. HR would be a proxy.

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Re: Which training response? [rockdude] [ In reply to ]
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Yes that’s all clear but I want to dig a bit deeper as to understand what physiological adaptations do I get from this profile? Still Vo2max? Something else? Vlamax?

The intervals are not exclusively low cadence but from normal to low over time (no failure from a power/hr perspective but a “failure” from a cadence perspective).
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Re: Which training response? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Ultimate objective is to increase my maximum oxygen uptake (which is limiting me at this point) to then gradually work on threshold and closer to race race pace efforts.

I know the definition of vo2max and regularly testing it, hr and power intervals derived from last testing.
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Re: Which training response? [Conky] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks interesting thoughts. Intuitively i would say the opposite though, I.e it is the muscular system giving in (through accumulated lactate) whereas the respiratory system is stable (proxied by high hr).

Even if fatigued it would make less sense to reduce power since that would reduce the hr (no longer in vo2max range), no?
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Re: Which training response? [Financier] [ In reply to ]
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HR can be depressed by fatigue, lactic buildup is not only due to muscular system fatigue (how does lactic acid get removed?), just bc HR is stable does not mean is isn't maxed out.

The point of Vo2 is to increase cardio output. If you're switching primarily from one system to the other (cardio to muscular with decrease in RPM) because you get tired, now you are not getting the primary training stimulus you're after. Doesn't mean you aren't getting fitter though.
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Re: Which training response? [Financier] [ In reply to ]
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Financier wrote:
Objective is clear: increase the maximal oxygen uptake as proxied through Vo2max/ml/kg

Here is a fun little test to help understand cadence vs oxygen uptake.

Do two 7 minute intervals at 80-85%

1st interval- do it at 50-60 rpm
2nd interval -do it at 110-115 rpm

From this test you should be able to tell which interval makes you breath harder and raises you HR them most.
.
You will find one to be more vo2 max orientated and one with be more vlamax orientated. Your questions will be answered.

BoulderCyclingCoach.com
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