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Re: Where is the outcry over Vinokourov racing Kona [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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I do think there it is interesting how some athletes that were caught doping are vilified more than others. Some become persona non grata within cycling or sport that major teams will not touch , others are pretty much forgiven such Valverde, and some it almost makes their legend greater e.g. Pantani by showing their human side.

Froome & team Sky gets urine thrown, spat at and young female team staff set on, while Movistar and Valverde don't seem to suffer the same fate yet arguably have more to answer about their pasts.
I can understand that Lance is forgiven less because of how aggressively he acted to others, however from what I have read Vinrenque didnt behave much differently yet still seems to he a hero to many that is welcome at most races.

Cycling obviously has a long history of doping, but of course all sports involve cheaters at some level and many have no appetite to tackle doping and risk stirring a hornets nest that could kill sponsorship cash cows.

It is worrying how much this is moving into amateur sports. Course cutters, anti-aging hormone replacement or put and out doping all seem to crop up. I have heard the European Gran Fondo scene has some big problems with this and there have been some recent cases in the UK TT scene.

I guess human nature will always create cheats - we have a company step challenge to encourage people to get active, but you end up with people putting their pedometers on their desk fans and all sorts of other cheats to get their steps up to win a cheap water bottle and t shirt.

I guess all we can do is continue to try and weed out cheats and punish them accordingly. We do though perhaps need to be more consistent with how we treat them though this quite difficult given the spectrums of cheating that occur and that some times it is not do black and white.
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Re: Where is the outcry over Vinokourov racing Kona [aerobike] [ In reply to ]
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I sure hope I'm the one he pays off to get a win. It's a gamble, but that's my strategy.
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Re: Where is the outcry over Vinokourov racing Kona [boing] [ In reply to ]
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boing wrote:
I guess human nature will always create cheats -


Yes, but I see a new generation rising in the US.

In my grandparent's days, there were cheats also, but back then the "self made man" and people who achieved through actual hard work was more respected.

I feel we're seeing generations now of "at any cost". And generations raising kids to be "winners" instead of raising kids to be "hard working men and women with a backbone".

The Talladega Nights movie scene with the sons talking smack and being told they can because "they're winners" is kind of what I'm getting at. You have kids growing up like that in all walks of life. Not at that level of crazy, but crazy enough. Then those kids become adults. Cheating adults with no backbone.

This:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfLtst6mC0Q
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Re: Where is the outcry over Vinokourov racing Kona [T-wrecks] [ In reply to ]
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are you going to look the other way coming down Ali'i Drive as he attacks to the finish?

T-wrecks wrote:
I sure hope I'm the one he pays off to get a win. It's a gamble, but that's my strategy.

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Re: Where is the outcry over Vinokourov racing Kona [aerobike] [ In reply to ]
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aerobike wrote:
Crickets....

Kinele's answer on the ST front page in his interview I think carries some weight. It's just hidden a bit, but I am sure its how many feel.
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Re: Where is the outcry over Vinokourov racing Kona [boing] [ In reply to ]
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I do think there it is interesting how some athletes that were caught doping are vilified more than others. Some become persona non grata within cycling or sport that major teams will not touch , others are pretty much forgiven such Valverde, and some it almost makes their legend greater e.g. Pantani by showing their human side.


It is interesting and most would assume Lance got preferred treatment because of his recovery and his Foundation but I think that speaks more for Lances personality than anything else. If he was quiet and humble, the anger towards him would be a fraction of what it is now. His constant legal and personal attacks against anyone who spoke out against him and what appeared to be his using the good of his Foundation to mask his true personality disturb a lot of people. It was the arrogance and bully that people don't like. There are lots of other high profile athletes that shun the spotlight and at least publicly appear humble that have done similar things in terms of drugs but I don't think it's only about drugs.

Lance represented all that was bad about not only sports but people. So much so that even his incredible ability, recovery and charitable work couldn't provide a shield. It's quite remarkable but those same reasons are why he rose so high in the first place so its a double edged sword. What made him great destroyed him.



I think it's similar everywhere. As mentioned, A-Rod has been provided a great job after his drug use while others like Barry Bonds are kept at a distance. Ben Johnson in Canada was treated like a pariah. Pete Rose was shunned because of gambling which in terms of performance on the field is a non-issue. It seems that for one reason or other, the media portrays some as sympathetic and others not and there are likely a lot of reasons for that.

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Re: Where is the outcry over Vinokourov racing Kona [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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ericMPro wrote:
are you going to look the other way coming down Ali'i Drive as he attacks to the finish?

T-wrecks wrote:
I sure hope I'm the one he pays off to get a win. It's a gamble, but that's my strategy.

We'll work that out in the moment, but I was planning an emergency potty break.

Funny, but knowing what we know now about Uran, I wonder if Vino paid him off with bananas.
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Re: Where is the outcry over Vinokourov racing Kona [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
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The Guardian wrote:
Why do you call it "faux" outrage? I am actually outraged. I hate doping. I hate cheaters. I hate double standards. This isn't "faux", it is actually how I feel.

I don't care that all sports do it, I don't care that cycling is really hard, I don't care that some people get banned and others don't. I don't care that it is close to impossible to eradicate doping. Doping is wrong, and is a big deal (for context - wrong like cheating on one's taxes, not as bad as, say, killing a guy).

I don't have any workable solutions to solve the doping problem but that does not mean doping is not cheating and isn't wrong enough to care about.
I don't want to speak for the person you are questioning, but I've always considered it to be a bit "faux" outrage. And the reason is that a lot of this "outrage" comes from a crowd that worshiped Lance's ball while he was winning 7 TdF. The boasting among triathlon community, "well you know he got his start in triathlon, blah blah." Yippee, and then everyone acts like he personally let them down. Lance was a monster dick long before he was finally nailed for doping. There were so many questions around performance you'd have to be willingly putting your head up your ass to not think there was a real good chance he was doping. The number of people in the local triathlon club who were all, "he never tested positive" and now trash Lance is nauseating. If you liked him you liked him, who cares that he got caught - he didn't let you down.. if you had that much stock in your feelings about Lance's performance than you need to re-evaluate things.

Disclaimer: I liked him, rooted for him, enjoyed his comeback while figuring he wasn't clean all along. Not shocked or dismayed when he was finally nailed, and still would root for him. I don't know if it's the foundation - lot of people say it was fake persona and all for $ - yeah? Oh well.. he also did a lot of good whether it benefited him or not. Dual personality? Who knows. I can't get all worked up about Lance and would gladly shake his hand if I got the chance to meet him.
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Re: Where is the outcry over Vinokourov racing Kona [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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Exactly what I was going to say. Every sport, even curling, has PED users and at every level. Pros to amateurs.

Because someone used PED’s, or more like because someone got caught using PED’s, should not disqualify them from ever competing in a sport again.

The best would still be the best on an equal playing field. So, if everyone was clean the same people would be on top.
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Re: Where is the outcry over Vinokourov racing Kona [trail] [ In reply to ]
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I would actually love to see a division in all sports called ‘the all drug league.’ With unlimited use of PED’s. And also the ‘all drug Olympics.’
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Re: Where is the outcry over Vinokourov racing Kona [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
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Oh ffs. The tdf has been around for 115 years and since day one people have used every edge to get ahead

Bradley and chris get TUE's and it's fine. Use a steroid for a saddle sore and it's fine. Use your inhaler and it's fine. Use either without and it's doping. The very same MD who approve the need for it is paid by the same people who pay the cyclists who get paid by the sponsors........

The racing has been every bit as exciting in every single era and at no point do we look back and say that the last 30 years of racing has been rubbish or they should all be scrubbed from the record books

Lance cheated no one. Not his sponsors. Not the public. The only people who thought no one was doping were those naive enough to think that in fields loaded with people who'd be caught or suspected of doping he was somehow clean

Did it reduce anyone's enjoyment of the racing. Watching lance / Jan or lance / pantani?

If you are really outraged you need to stop watching it.
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Re: Where is the outcry over Vinokourov racing Kona [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
I gave a little clarity to your post and the possible source of the hypocrisy.
I think Euro-centrism is certainly part of it, but it's not quite that simple when you've got plenty of counter examples like Vaughters, Danielson, Hincapie, Leipheimer etc, etc that have skated by and are still involved in the sport in varying degrees. Again, I think Tygart forced the UCI's hand where European anti-doping agencies were perfectly willing to keep their mouths shut.
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Re: Where is the outcry over Vinokourov racing Kona [jacked] [ In reply to ]
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jacked wrote:
I would actually love to see a division in all sports called ‘the all drug league.’ With unlimited use of PED’s. And also the ‘all drug Olympics.’

That's just called the plain old "Olympics". The all drug part is implied and implicit.
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Re: Where is the outcry over Vinokourov racing Kona [aerobike] [ In reply to ]
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He is my AG so yes it pisses me off

And don’t forget Jalabert

Difference with these guys is that I know they doped

I can only suspect others so just have to get on with it and hope that they all get a flat
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Re: Where is the outcry over Vinokourov racing Kona [aerobike] [ In reply to ]
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aerobike wrote:
Crickets....

I'll always be gutted that my wife went into labour with our first daughter the night of the Olympic Road Race. She hung on like a good'un so we could watch the end of the race before driving the 40 minutes to hospital.......just to watch that c@nt win.

A bitter / sweet day ;)

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Twitter: @sweat7coaching
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Re: Where is the outcry over Vinokourov racing Kona [jacked] [ In reply to ]
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jacked wrote:
I would actually love to see a division in all sports called ‘the all drug league.’ With unlimited use of PED’s. And also the ‘all drug Olympics.’

I'd be down with that.
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Re: Where is the outcry over Vinokourov racing Kona [aerobike] [ In reply to ]
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4:18:06 bike split
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Re: Where is the outcry over Vinokourov racing Kona [jacked] [ In reply to ]
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Would it be ok if you had a family member in it?
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Re: Where is the outcry over Vinokourov racing Kona [Spoon] [ In reply to ]
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Spoon wrote:
4:18:06 bike split

he did aerotest :-)
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Re: Where is the outcry over Vinokourov racing Kona [UKINNY] [ In reply to ]
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UKINNY wrote:
Difference with these guys is that I know they doped

I'm doubtful that any of the AG dopers at Kona do anything like Vino was known to do (e.g. blood transfusions).

Dimond Bikes Superfan
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Re: Where is the outcry over Vinokourov racing Kona [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]
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http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vinokourov-denies-he-bought-2010-liege-bastogne-liege-win/
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Re: Where is the outcry over Vinokourov racing Kona [aerobike] [ In reply to ]
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So Vino is your concern? What is about 90% of AG cheaters (drafters) which we observed today? Is it any better than what Vino/Lance committed? But Vino served DQ for 4 years while only about 10% of AG cheaters are sent to penalty box. For 5 minutes (feel free to repeat)
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Re: Where is the outcry over Vinokourov racing Kona [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Sean H wrote:
Just merely pointing out that your sport doesn't hold itself to a higher standard than those other sports. And if you want me to tie it all together for you, Vande Velde is on TV too. ;)

Sure cycling holds itself to a higher standard than some other sports. Travis Tygart, like his methods or not, is a sincerely anti-doping crusader. He, at some point, made the decision that if he couldn't get Lance, arguably the highest-profile blatant dopers of those under the umbrella of USADA, that USADA might as well pack up and go home. So he spent a lot of resources and got him.

He offered Lance the same deal that Vande Velde got. Lance turned down that deal. That was his decision.

I'll point out here, nowhere in this thread have I stated that Vino et al, should be turned away. I'm just surprised at all the vitriol directed at those who try to make the sport cleaner.

What he is not is an anti child sexual abuse crusader as evidenced by his time with USA swimming. Maybe he should have been more interested in that than catching drug cheats to make a name for himself.
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Re: Where is the outcry over Vinokourov racing Kona [trivadim] [ In reply to ]
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trivadim wrote:
So Vino is your concern? What is about 90% of AG cheaters (drafters) which we observed today? Is it any better than what Vino/Lance committed? But Vino served DQ for 4 years while only about 10% of AG cheaters are sent to penalty box. For 5 minutes (feel free to repeat)
What about whataboutism?
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Re: Where is the outcry over Vinokourov racing Kona [HomerJSimpson] [ In reply to ]
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HomerJSimpson wrote:

What he is not is an anti child sexual abuse crusader as evidenced by his time with USA swimming. Maybe he should have been more interested in that than catching drug cheats to make a name for himself.


I'm trying to have breakfast here, I don't need to throw up in my mouth.

(I didn't know about that, read the article, ugh.)
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