I believe that he is actually better off leaving the message boards to the consumers, meaning that he should let those who use his product speak up for it, most consumers will not believe everything a manufacturer tells them anyhow. I agree that if PC's do work then they will sell. For now all there is are ancedotes and there has been no factual improvement data.

Once, and if, the data becomes available then his sales will either skyrocket or, if the data proves otherswise, PC's will make a good addition to your running tools and 1 leg drills days.

I know that data testing can be done, Rotor Cranks has done a recent scientific study on their cranks to show gains. Frank can set something up as well and shut us all up. Especially me.

I do know that I talked to Alan Lin (sp?) the Phd student at CU on a ride 2 weeks ago, we talked about PC's and Powertap and SRM and he believes that they are beneficial. I believe he has a little more credibility than you given his choice of PHd and thesis subject....

I dont have any credibility in this area, I'm not a sports physician, coach or trainer. My problem with them is the lack of testing that HE CAN DO and the claims made by his company that have no foundation. I would hate to see some cyclist plunk down $800 and suffer theough months of training only to get burned because they did not have all the facts before they purchased the PC's.

All I'm saying is that he should be more up front about them.

I do know that if a company wants to sell me a product that claims to improve my speed by 40% they better have the numbers to prove it.

The 60 day guarantee is fine and dandy ... but in general improvements of 40% will not show up in that time frame, most people on this board have problems converting to adjustability in those 60 days.

All I'm saying is that Frank change his marketing to:

1. Remove the 40% improvement statement and put in "some riders have shown improvement over time".

2. Remove the statements that PowerCranks will help athletes to break every world cycling record. There is no foundation for that statement.

3. Put in place: "for PowerCranks to show the benefits that we promise the cranks must be used on every training ride, for them to work you must train your brain and cannot use standard cranks except while racing"

4. Put in place: "the adaptation period varies from user to user, however in general for the first 60 days you will not be able to ride your bicycle for periods of over 30-60 minutes nor find it comfortable to ride in the aerobars"

Give him a break. With the thousands of things you see advertised everyday why do pick on Frank Day for sensational advertising. When was the last time you called Proctor & Gamble and asked to see the studies that showed how tide made your clothes %40 whiter. I did not purchase my PC's with the thought that I will acheive the ad improvements. But the ads did initialy catch my eye. But if the ad had read "Expensive tortous device design to reduce HF's to rubbery like substance" I would not have given them another look. In the end it was people like ttn that convinced me to try them, and not the advertising claims.

I hope you guys do watch infomercials.

Joe

he could not buy publicity like you continue to give him.

That said, I notice you are not all over Dan E sh*t about the Wipperman chain add with the 10 watt improvement? dont seem to be all over Tom D for his review of the Hed 3 Bars the supposed time savings they would give you supported by JS in terms of quantifiable evidence.

I think that we can safely assume that both Bompha (sp?) and Lydiard had skeptics such as you when they put forth their ideas, I can also safely say that their concepts were not adapted or refined in 2 or 3 years.

I am not saying that PCs are as revolutionary as either of the above but I'm also not saying they areny, I'm saying you dont know.

I know that I wont stop using them, I dont care whether you do or dont, I dont feel any need to defend FD, I just find it more interesting that you choose to pick this battle when there are plenty of other people making equally unfounded claims by your own standards but you are not taking them to task..........

gary. i got on them and rode 100 miles. i am a 40 something nobody. they improved my cycling inside of 2 months more than anything i have ever encounted. etc. i was a hostile skeptic and mr day's predictions for me came true to the letter. as a fellow cyclist i think it is too bad you couldn't stick it out.

guess what - you need to check your facts:

no mention of 10 watts advantages on the Wipperman web site,

HED does not (from the web site) claim that their bar is more aero than any other,

on the other hand, PowerCranks state on their web site that they GUARANTEE A 40% power improvement ... now, I find that a bit different

I could stick it out but it was not part of the deal, I had to send them back as per our agreement, I was led to believe that I could still ride my non PC equipped bike 1x per week and see the 40% gains, so I sent them back - I dont regret it. I am concentrating my trianing on building my extensors and getting real power to the downstroke ... as per my TT mentors who are big mashers.

Gary, in general I agree that Day's hyperbole is offputting and that his marketing might be more effective with less controversial claims. I do disagree with one of your recommendations for revising his claims, however.

I have had the PC's on since January 26, and I'm well past the 30-60 minute level, and it only took me a couple of weeks to get there. I'm not one of The Converted yet, so I will tell you that I'm riding slower, at a higher heart rate and getting sore in places I never did before when riding (and not just the hip flexors), but going past 60 minutes is not a big deal at this point.

D, can you read? you see that might be where you are having this problem. I wrote one thing, you responded to something I never brought up.

The % was there on the Wipperman add I guess until Dan removed it, either way I did not see your name up on the posts questioning it's validity, nor on the posts questioning Tom D's claims about the Hed bar.

That said the only way you would have known these things is if you READ what was written not what you thought was written.

Check your facts Gary.

We guarantee satisfaction for 2 months. We expect that most won't be satisfied unless they see speed improvement or expect to see speed improvement after using them for awhile.

I "expect" to see a 40% power improvement in MOST new users in 6 to 9 months. I don't guarantee it! Such a guarantee for everyone would be impossible as i can't know the level the the user is starting at and I can't control how they will use them (as you well know), an important element as to what results I expect the user to see. Please show me where i make that guarantee and I will change it.

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

written it is clearly what Gary reads and the two are very obviously not the same thing at all.

Gary,

You wrote "I do know that if a company wants to sell me a product that claims to improve my speed by 40% they better have the numbers to prove it."

I don't claim PC's increase speed 40%. You are confusing speed and power. I claim a 40% increase in POWER. this is correlates to just under a 12% increase in speed. So, I would expect to be able to get someone who can now ride 20 mph up to 22.4 mph FOR REASONABLE DISANCES (40 k or so) in 6 to nine months, IF THEY USE THEM RIGHT. That is the claim.

While the "proof" I have (that caused me to make the claim) does not satisfy you, it is enough for me to feel comfortable making the claim and the feedback I have received from users has not given me pause that might make we want to change the claim as to what new users can expect. Feedback and criticisms regarding the claims from non users doesn't have much influence with me.

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

A 40 per cent power increase but where does this power come from.

If on a turbo trainer with locked wheels and cranks at 3 and 9 o'clock,you were to apply maximum power to the chainwheel by using the two

cranks, would the power generated by the downward pressure of the

3 o'clock pedal be increased by 40 per cent by the pulling up of the

leg on the 9 o'clock pedal?



Anquetil's technique will increase power but I doubt if it would be

40 per cent, but his style uses combined arm and hip/thigh generated

power and applies almost maximum power through the dead spot area.

He used a linear V shaped pedaling style and if one attempted the

above experiment, the power that his technique could generate

would be so strong that something would have to give, although once

cadence increases it is not necessary or would not be possible to use

this extreme power.

Perfection,

I don't have the pressure plate pedal analysis to be able to state exactly where it comes from. I surmise it is a combination of three things.

1. Improved efficiency from simply getting the recovery leg out of the way.
2. Improved efficiency from better pedal force direction along the tangent (less mashing)
3. Increased muscle mass being utilized in the pedal stroke.

All are probably a little bit involved but the relative amount of each component is unknown to me. I look forward to someone doing this work to answer the question. i do not know Anquetil's technique so cannot comment on any potential comparison.

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

You are correct, it is I, N Crowley, I did get the CT and have learned a

lot. Even though one can apply continuous generated muscle power to

the pedals, there will be extra pressure on the pedal in the 2 to 4 o'clock area due to the weight of the leg. I have spent over 5 years

perfecting this technique, the main advantage of which is for me the

complete elimination of even the worst cycling related lower back pain.

You shortly will see a letter in Cyclingnews seeking about 6 of the worst

lower back pain victims, though it will probably have to go into

magazines as well. If they are prepared to travel to Dublin, all will

be pedaling completely back pain free (Anquetil style) within one day

and apart from covering their own travelling and subsistance expenses

Anquetil's technique with all its other advantages is free. The only

two conditions to be met are, they must be able to walk back pain free

and must already have a reasonable round pedaling style and that is

for synchronization and timing purposes.

As Frank said, to get a true genuine idea of the power application

you would need some type of instant one chainwheel revolution torque

recorder.

I have Anquetil's technique ok, would you be prepared to bet against it.

Hey Fred -
Please ignore Noel, and maybe he'll go away.

I guess it was only a matter of time before he found this group - he seems to have made an appearence on most of the good roadie groups already...

MH

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Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
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