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When to retest FTP after bailing?
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Tried holding holding 315w (291w FTP) for the 20 min effort and stopped at the 8 minute mark. Mentally, I just couldn't go deep enough. I then sat on the bike for 5 minutes, felt pretty ashamed, and tried TR's Ramp Test. Stopped right at the 130% FTP mark (So, no improvements).

Question: Do I retest? If so, when? This afternoon? Tomorrow? A week from now?

Today is the start of a final 8 week build for a 70.3. I'm nowhere near how fast I was going into my last half iron and it's incredibly demotivating. I spent the last 8 weeks hitting every TR workout to perfection, yet no increase in FTP.

@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri
Last edited by: cloy: Mar 20, 18 5:39
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Re: When to retest FTP after bailing? [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know abut when to retest or anything like that, but it seems to me that you only took 5 minutes between 1 test and the next test, and are now letting that define all of your efforts over the past several months (hopefully just temporarily). 1 test does not a season make, you could've been having a bad day, maybe you didn't get as much sleep as you needed, maybe you are fatigued. If you are "nailing" all of your workouts, that is a distinct possibility.


I was listening to this on the trainer last night, kinda long (which is perfect for trainer rides), but it seemed to fit the situation. TL:DL version, the result is what the result is. Focus on what you can control, not what you can't.




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Re: When to retest FTP after bailing? [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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If you only did an 8 minute session and then the TR ramp test, which is about 16 minutes you should be good to go after 24 hours.
As always the key to the 20' test is to go out for the first 5 below or just on target , on target for the second 5, dig in and push a little on the 3rd quarter and then give it everything for the last 5. Easier said than done I know.

And boy do you feel annoyed with yourself when you bail out on a test.

My foray into time trialling at the age of 60
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Re: When to retest FTP after bailing? [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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For 20min? Next day is fine with me, but depends on your overall training load. If you didn't go into the test building a little bit of form that might be why it bonked.

I usually take a day off at least before a try. If I fail or bail, next day is fine there as it's only a few min of work that day before.

Shoot, Graeme Obree did back to back hour record attempts.......and succeeded.

Mentally, for me, the 8 min mark is critical. If I can get to that point and "rally" mentally a bit, I can make it. I usually know right what to shoot for from doing my 3x12min under/over workouts within 5w.

For me, some killer music and great fan flow are key. I pretty much have a 20min test playlist. Lol. I also jack the volume up the further into it I get.
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Re: When to retest FTP after bailing? [Johnnybike] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed... I've had more than a couple times where I've finished the 20, been unhappy and retested 2 days later ... better mindset... learned from my "practice" test and did better by several points
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Re: When to retest FTP after bailing? [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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I would get some rest. 2+ days before I tried again. Testing inside on the trainer is both mentally and physically rough. If you were too tired to hit the target, I would take it as a sign that you a bit fatigued and need some more rest, especially if you getting ready to start another 8 weeks of training.
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Re: When to retest FTP after bailing? [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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Sometimes you have a bad day. Don't let that hurt your confidence.
Also, like Jason said, you may be fatigued from your recent training. I'm guessing you weren't well rested starting the test?
Some of my best performances have come a few weeks after feeling really dull. Last year I "lost" 4W from my FTP from half way through the off season to the start of my A event taper. I'm absolutely certain that had I done an FTP test at the end of my taper, I would have easily beaten my previous best. I also know I performed far better in the event than I could have at the point when I did the superior FTP test.

Another possibility is just you mental state approaching and performing the FTP test. Perhaps you had big hopes and when you were really suffering early in the 20mins and started doubting you'd achieve what you'd expected it made it that much harder to subject yourself to the discomfort of the FTP test. I know I can take a lot more pain when I'm winning than when I'm losing. That can be against another rider or against the clock or powermeter. You're body is not a simple machine. It's a complex one and your head is a big big part of it.

It's too late to make up for any shortcomings in training. You are where you are. The FTP test might have been a nice confidence boost had it gone well, but the fact it didn't means relatively little. Forget about the test and be confident instead that you've done the training and you'll be ready when the day comes. Strength comes AFTER the training.
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Re: When to retest FTP after bailing? [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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I have typically waited around 24 hours though with nothing to back-up that 'rest' period - marks around rest as there would typically be a hard swim session in the middle of that time.


I could have the training phases wrong, but I am pretty sure the TR guys have mentioned on the podcast previously that one of the three phases (and I am sure it's not base), doesn't make much difference to FTP as you are working not on growing the ceiling but being able to get closer to that ceiling for the correct race style efforts. I would have assumed that this refers to the specialty phase but without the reference in front of me I wouldn't like to confirm that.

If only we could 'tag' users in posts like this and ask Bryce and the TR guys directly.

What would you target output have resulted in in terms of % improvement (291W/current). Did you just overestimate ability? Have you made any other changes such as transitioning from road bike to race bike position etc?

Practise doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent. Only perfect practice makes perfect!
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Re: When to retest FTP after bailing? [PrimalSteve] [ In reply to ]
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It would have landed me right at 300 watts.

The results of the test were disappointing mostly because I held 350w for 20 minutes (at sea level) back in September 2017, going into my final 8 week block before my last half iron. (So roughly a 325w FTP). So now I'm looking at a 290w FTP---a 35 watt difference.

One factor I should consider is that I moved from sea level to 5,200 ft. in January. Tested in January at 291w FTP, and rough estimates, after acclimation, would put that at a ~5% decrease in power. So at a 290w FTP at 5,200 ft. would translate to a 305w FTP at sea level.

No other changes. I have a bike fitting scheduled for this Friday and I'll be switching to the Tririg Alpha X, so maybe I should wait to test until I get the new fit?

@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri
Last edited by: cloy: Mar 20, 18 7:56
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Re: When to retest FTP after bailing? [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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7-10d to see the results of that test in your next test.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: When to retest FTP after bailing? [cloy] [ In reply to ]
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I don't like to do FTP tests because of this. The test itself is a race like effort which requires 100% focus, and you risk disappointment. Just keep training hard, every now and then do a VO2 max or threshold workout at your original PR FTP test, and try to bump it up a couple of watts. If you can survive that, then you are improving.

The FTP test itself drains a ton of mental reserve, which may spill over to the swim/run, which you may find yourself lacking that extra motivation to get through the final interval.
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Re: When to retest FTP after bailing? [Rest] [ In reply to ]
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Rest wrote:
I don't like to do FTP tests because of this. The test itself is a race like effort which requires 100% focus...

The FTP test itself drains a ton of mental reserve.

Ditto, there's only so often in a year I can *really* bury myself & I'd prefer to save that for races rather than testing.

Having said that I've been thinking about trying out the TrainerRoad ramp test, far less demanding than the 20 min & if it get's a good read on FTP then it's a useful data point.
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Re: When to retest FTP after bailing? [SteveM] [ In reply to ]
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X3.

Why can’t you just “manually” bump up your FTP? I think people put on much stock in the test and otherwise ignore other data for which they have a much bigger sampling anyway. If you know your numbers are higher than what is reflected in the test, ignore the test results and set your FTP to where you think it should be and then see how those numbers work in the next few workouts.
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Re: When to retest FTP after bailing? [Rest] [ In reply to ]
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Rest wrote:
I don't like to do FTP tests because of this. The test itself is a race like effort which requires 100% focus, and you risk disappointment. Just keep training hard, every now and then do a VO2 max or threshold workout at your original PR FTP test, and try to bump it up a couple of watts. If you can survive that, then you are improving.

The FTP test itself drains a ton of mental reserve, which may spill over to the swim/run, which you may find yourself lacking that extra motivation to get through the final interval.

I agree.

Though if testing, I prefer not to bail unless there's some mechanical malfunction or genuinely sick (or 2#$#% Windows decides to reboot after a self-update).

Because a test is to see where are you right then. If you struggle then finish as gracefully as you can, and that's your test result.

I consider re-trying until you find some mental sweet spot to be "gaming the test." No point, because you can't game races. Go time is go time. If preparation was an issue, take the lesson-learned for the next test.
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Re: When to retest FTP after bailing? [Rest] [ In reply to ]
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Rest wrote:
I don't like to do FTP tests because of this. The test itself is a race like effort which requires 100% focus, and you risk disappointment. Just keep training hard, every now and then do a VO2 max or threshold workout at your original PR FTP test, and try to bump it up a couple of watts. If you can survive that, then you are improving.

The FTP test itself drains a ton of mental reserve, which may spill over to the swim/run, which you may find yourself lacking that extra motivation to get through the final interval.

Agreed. I've got 410 sessions logged on Trainerroad, and have done a 20 min test three times...last one being about 2 1/2 years ago. After awhile, you know when your FTP is too low, or too high. you know if you are having an "off" or "weak" day(or a "strong" day), and you alter the intensity on your workout accordingly.

Some workouts are good barometers of FTP without actually being an FTP test. I swear that Carillon is a good test to see where I'm at. By the same token, if you can do Mary Austin easily...your FTP is too low. hell, if you finish it without cheating, your FTP might be a little low.

I'm not a pro, just a 47 year old amateur. I'm still seeing gains with each passing month. maybe I'm shortchanging my progress, but no 20 min tests for me anymore.

Not everything is as it seems -Mr. Miyagi
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Re: When to retest FTP after bailing? [ In reply to ]
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I always bang my head on the desk when people say doing an FTP test requires the mental focus of doing a race.

Just go out bang out the 5 min effort, ride easy for 10 min then go bang out the 20 min effort. Wait......you did do the 5 min effort didn't you?

Just do them to the best of you ability on that day.

Combine those results with the rest of your data and you're going to be inside 5w.

You guys crack me up at times.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: When to retest FTP after bailing? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Slightly rhetorical question here, is the goal of the FTP test to get the highest possible number, or is it to get a reasonably accurate benchmark to use to guide your training for the next 4-8 weeks, so that workouts can be tailored to target the adaptations you want out of the workout. i.e. an FTP test that is inflated is as bad or worse than an FTP test that is too low.

desert dude wrote:
I always bang my head on the desk when people say doing an FTP test requires the mental focus of doing a race.

Just go out bang out the 5 min effort, ride easy for 10 min then go bang out the 20 min effort. Wait......you did do the 5 min effort didn't you?

Just do them to the best of you ability on that day.

Combine those results with the rest of your data and you're going to be inside 5w.

You guys crack me up at times.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: When to retest FTP after bailing? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Slightly rhetorical answer then.

If you did 3 FTP tests on days 1,3,6, you'd probably get 3 different yet very close numbers. Call is X85 X87 X84. What's your FTP?

What if you did 2 and got X87 and X84? or X84 and X87? (although I'd bet $10 that if a lot of you did x84 then x87 you'd call it x87!)

more importantly how is getting x87 going to change our training vs x83?

You're not training a number you're training for adaptations. 4-6-8 weeks later if you're training right that test you did 4-6-8 weeks ago is already wrong (hopefully)

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: When to retest FTP after bailing? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
I always bang my head on the desk when people say doing an FTP test requires the mental focus of doing a race.


Going as hard as you can possibly go for 20 minutes is really hard. Going 95% or FTP for 20 minutes isn't that bad. But if you're legitimately going at 100% it means you're flirting with the edges of your pain tolerance for 20 minutes. That's never easy. It's extremely hard for me to do without the mental distraction of an actual race where having to focus on the other competitors, etc, tends to make it more manageable.
Last edited by: trail: Mar 20, 18 18:22
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