Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: When is an amateur not an amateur? [tessar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
tessar wrote:
snackchair wrote:
There's almost no incentive to race pro in triathlon, so there's always going to be sandbaggers.

The fact that its so much easier to get to Kona (or 70.3 worlds) as ager than as a pro just exacerbates that effect.


Which is, as usual, twice as obvious in the women's ranks. F35-45 is littered with ex-pros, could've-been-pros, and others who finish top-10 at regional championships (IM Frankfurt, for example) and maintain a website full of sponsors, race results and images from their winter camps in Mallorca. They're pro in everything but the official status.

But it's the same way in every sport. Cycling has categories, but there's a guy who's racing in my category who trains as many hours as he likes (which is more than 20 a week), is now on a two-week altitude camp in the Alps, fully sponsored head to toe and even if he weren't, he has enough money to buy top-end equipment - and he's as powerful as some local Elite category riders, but because he doesn't race often he doesn't want to upgrade. Meanwhile, I'm a university student with a three-digit account balance, an alu frame and have to think twice about whether I can afford two gels on this ride. Tough, but nothing to be done about it.

Can I just suggest that there is never a reason to spend money on gels in training, whether you are a starving university student or rolling in an 7-8 figure bank account after you took your startup to a NASDAQ IPO. It makes no sense to spend money on pre packaged foods as there are cheaper ways to get 10x the calories at 1/10th the price from the local grocery store.

As for the topic at hand realistically everyone under 45 is racing artificial age groups. The best guys in your age group all race pro. The top 40-44 year old in the world is Cam Brown. Frodo and Kienle in the 30's and so on. Only after you get to 45-49 are all the top guys in the world actually racing in your age group (provided they are racing). In my age group, we have guys like Ken Glah and Jurgen Zack, the one above me has Scott Molina. In the W45-49, the fastest women in the world is still racing pro too so the top age grouper is not the fastest either.

As H2OFun said, the age groups are there to keep us all entertained. I know it truly sucks that some people have better genetics or more money or more flexibility or all of the above, but that's just life. It works the same way in other domains of professional life too. The faster we all figure that out the better. The only one we can control is ourselves and what we get out of our own circumstances.

WRT to being a university student and having a 3 digit account balance, it is just money. Your acccount balance will get bigger in due course. This is the time in life to enjoy a bunch of things that you will not be able to do later in life. You can have money later, but you can have youth only once (and I know that the guys in 70-74 will tell me that I can only be 50-54 once, so just go do stuff that I can and don't worry about what goes on around me and what others may or may not be able to do). In my age group there are plenty of guys who are retired/semi retired and also sport tans in March from their 6 weeks camps in Florida or Lanzarote, while I get it done on the trainer around work obligations. Plenty of guys with big bank balances with freedom to train even better than most pros because they have no financial constraints. I say "more power to you boys.....you worked hard and earned it". Life is not fair. Just about to get on the bike for my commute to work. That's generally going to be my training against the guys training all day in Thanyapura with Macca, but that's fine.

Hopefully I will see you in Austria this year!
Quote Reply
Re: When is an amateur not an amateur? [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Andrewmc wrote:
I think there individuals racing as amateurs - guy that finished 4th i think at IM France was 30-34, he's previously won his AG at the worlds - I'm not sure how "amateurish" anyone in any AG is that is at the pointy end of one of these fields

I'm not sure that it takes materially less effort, time or dedication to train yourself to finish 4th as an AG'er in a IM as opposed to win it (though I think he was just shy of 20 minutes off the winning time)

I would say that aside from the extremely genetically gifted, pretty well anyone getting a Kona slot or near miss is training close to as much as a pro would at least in some key weeks of the year. Many age groupers train more than pros. The main difference is genetics and recovery time and in fairness, pros don't sit around on the couch all day after training....well at least the smart ones are not. They are hussling in the business world trying to monetize their speed into biz relationships and sponsor revenue. Well, at least the smart ones are. Most of the others hold down a full time job or run a business. Pro triathlon does not pay enough to live off race winnings and support a family, so all the amateurs whining about pros is misplaced....most have to work as hard outside sport as pros.

Or as Scott Molina once said on this topic of ex pros racing age grouper, "How about I'll stop racing triathlon if you guys hand in your MBAs and medical degrees and I get to work in your profession just for fun." That kind of puts it in perspective. Let's not take the knife out towards guys with better tri genetics because ours are inferior. Elsewhere in life, others don't get to compete with us at what we are pros in that easily.
Quote Reply
Re: When is an amateur not an amateur? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
devashish_paul wrote:
[

Can I just suggest that there is never a reason to spend money on gels in training, whether you are a starving university student or rolling in an 7-8 figure bank account after you took your startup to a NASDAQ IPO. It makes no sense to spend money on pre packaged foods as there are cheaper ways to get 10x the calories at 1/10th the price from the local grocery store.


WRT to being a university student and having a 3 digit account balance, it is just money. Your acccount balance will get bigger in due course. This is the time in life to enjoy a bunch of things that you will not be able to do later in life. You can have money later, but you can have youth only once

Totally agreed. I was a cat 1 college student who slept 6-8 to a hotel room racing for primes for gas money who would smuggle bagels out of the cafeteria to use on training rides (and weekend race breakfasts). It's crazy to waste money on gels on training rides. I would only ever use a gel for the last 10 miles of a road race and even then would evaluate whether or not I needed it! Even now I get boxes of gels from a sponsor and I will only ever carry them on group training rides to give to other people. Bang for the buck: poptarts. 400 calories x 4 for $1-2 dollars. And delicious.

Enjoy the time now, worry about the money later (but don't waste money on silly things like gels on training rides when there are higher-priority things).
Quote Reply
Re: When is an amateur not an amateur? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hey, hey, that was just a comparison thing! I'd never use a gel on a training ride, except for once-twice in key sessions before a big race to make sure it agrees with me. Usually I carry rice-cakes or other home-made food that's cheaper. That specific guy I compared to, however, gets a crate of those things shipped to him monthly.

I accept this situation and I'm not bitter about it. On top of that, I think the amount of age-groups is getting a bit ridiculous, and 5-year intervals are a bit much especially in local races where you can have only a handful of competitors in an age group. Every disadvantage is relative, and I know one day I'll be racing M40-44 and there's going to be a guy complaining that 20 years in sports is an unfair advantage over him, or that I chose a partner that competes herself instead of one that resents the sport and restricts his resources. The paths our lives take are down to our decisions, and I consciously made the decision to chase a more challenging and interesting degree, and opted for a top-notch training environment over an opportunity to get some free equipment that won't make a difference in five year's time.

My path will lead me to Austria in about a month's time, so see you there!

ZONE3 - We Last Longer
Quote Reply
Re: When is an amateur not an amateur? [tessar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
tessar wrote:
snackchair wrote:
There's almost no incentive to race pro in triathlon, so there's always going to be sandbaggers.

The fact that its so much easier to get to Kona (or 70.3 worlds) as ager than as a pro just exacerbates that effect.


Which is, as usual, twice as obvious in the women's ranks. F35-45 is littered with ex-pros, could've-been-pros, and others who finish top-10 at regional championships (IM Frankfurt, for example) and maintain a website full of sponsors, race results and images from their winter camps in Mallorca. They're pro in everything but the official status.

But it's the same way in every sport. Cycling has categories, but there's a guy who's racing in my category who trains as many hours as he likes (which is more than 20 a week), is now on a two-week altitude camp in the Alps, fully sponsored head to toe and even if he weren't, he has enough money to buy top-end equipment - and he's as powerful as some local Elite category riders, but because he doesn't race often he doesn't want to upgrade. Meanwhile, I'm a university student with a three-digit account balance, an alu frame and have to think twice about whether I can afford two gels on this ride. Tough, but nothing to be done about it.

Yeah but you can't really blame them, they're just making the best of this idiotic system we have in place.

As far as I'm concerned, there should only be open and masters with x qualifying spots or x dollars x deep - basically the way running works. Distinguishing between pros and amateurs, and allowing more folks to qualify for Kona/70.3 worlds through their age groups and making it virtually impossible for many of the fastest folks to qualify is absurd.

___________________
Twitter | Kancman | Blog
Quote Reply
Post deleted by Administrator [ In reply to ]
Re: When is an amateur not an amateur? [Ironmanager] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
This whole thread is ridiculous.

Pro - you race for money.

Amateur - you don't race for money

Kona slots are not money.

It doesn't matter if you previously raced for money, or you are fast enough to race for money in the future. Whatever race category you enter today is your status.
Quote Reply
Re: When is an amateur not an amateur? [Ironmanager] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In every sport, there are people who the best combination of being younger, more talented, more adequately trained and have better equipment. In every race, of any kind, in any sport, everyone gets beat except for one guy.

Anyone who is in favor of gaming the system to manufacture a way so they, with less of any or all of those factors, can "win" is a true amateur ;-) Pros just want to race and are not afraid to lose.
Last edited by: STP: Jul 29, 15 8:28
Quote Reply
Re: When is an amateur not an amateur? [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
So you're a pro if you win 50$ at some Podunk tri or 5k? Running is nice because there's no pros, just elites. If you run fast enough you are never excluded from money or the OA win.
Last edited by: npage148: Jul 29, 15 11:15
Quote Reply
Re: When is an amateur not an amateur? [npage148] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
npage148 wrote:
So you're a pro if you win 50$ at some Podunk tri or 5k? Running is nice because there's no pros, just elites. If you run fast enough you are never excluded from money or the OA win.

Well there are pros in running. Unless you are speaking of outside of track and field and the Olympics.
Quote Reply
Re: When is an amateur not an amateur? [champy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yeah, I'm thinking about road racing. T&F is a lot like ITU in the handling of progression and development. The Olympic marathon is a great example of the one field idea in road running, run an OTQ time, get top 3 at the trials and go represent the usa
Last edited by: npage148: Jul 29, 15 11:36
Quote Reply
Re: When is an amateur not an amateur? [Ironmanager] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Living in Boulder, I completely understand this topic. There are tons of Age Groupers who are as good if not better than Pros. A number of Age groupers stay as AGs so they can go to Kona. They would not be able to qualify for Kona as a Pro, but can win their age group.

I think, if you meet the criteria to qualify as a Pro per USAT rules, then you should have to get a pro card and be considered Pro.

On the flip side, I think that prize money should just be Top 7 overall. If an AG is sixth, just cause they are not a Pro doesnt mean they arent due the money. Of course then they probably qualify and should have to become a Pro.

Jeff Abbott - @run1fast
jabbott@headsweats.com
Headsweats - Custom Team singlets $8 / Cycling Jerseys $25
Abbott Event Solutions - Brand Rep and Event Manager
Quote Reply
Re: When is an amateur not an amateur? [abbottj123] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
you mean something like a foreced "cat up?"

Pactimo brand ambassador, ask me about promo codes
Quote Reply
Re: When is an amateur not an amateur? [MTBSully] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
MTBSully wrote:
you mean something like a foreced "cat up?"

Yes. Otherwise you have age groupers taking the top spots. Maybe this is only an issue you see in So Cal or Boulder or a few other hotbeds of triathletes. I know people that wont turn Pro because they like going to Kona and know they can only get there as an Age Grouper winning their slot.

Maybe that needs to be more fuel to my fire to train harder.

Jeff Abbott - @run1fast
jabbott@headsweats.com
Headsweats - Custom Team singlets $8 / Cycling Jerseys $25
Abbott Event Solutions - Brand Rep and Event Manager
Quote Reply
Re: When is an amateur not an amateur? [abbottj123] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
This isn't limited to IMs it is at every distance of triathlon. In the sprint distance race I did last weekend the winner of my AG (M25-29) beat second by 2 minutes, the gap to third from second was 7 minutes, that is a wide margin over a 1.25 hour race. In amateur mountain biking (cat 3 to Cat1/pro) they say Cat 2 is the bread and butter of amateur racing. It is full of people dedicated to the sport but still have a life. Cat 3s are testing the waters and Cat1/pro are guys that are genetically gifted with some real time to train.

You could plot finish times and end up with a bell curve, fastest 25% are cat 1, middle 50% are cat 2 and the slowest 25% are cat 3. Winning or doing really well as a cat 3 incentivizes people staying in the sport vs getting pummeled on you first go round and saying, nope never gunna be competitive at that. If you were a college swimmer, runner or cyclist you could self cat up to cat 2 and try racing a more competitive class.

In the race this weekend here are the AGs for the top 10, distances were 400m, 22 miles, 5k
1st - M25-29, finished in 1:16:04
2nd - M40-44
3rd - M25-29
4th - M35-39
5th - M45-49
6th - M35-39
7th - M45-49
8th - F25-29
9th - M40-44
10th - M30-34, finished in 1:21:44.4

This shows breaking things up by AG is dumb and having real classes. Everyone on this list is an amateur, you are an amateur until you are racing elite ITU level.

This thread really demonstrates the participant driven aspect of triathlon. It astonishes me that so many people are fine with just racing themselves. Break this damn sport up and let me compete in a field of equally talented people. Not people that were born within a few years of me.

Pactimo brand ambassador, ask me about promo codes
Quote Reply
Re: When is an amateur not an amateur? [MTBSully] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
MTBSully wrote:
This shows breaking things up by AG is dumb and having real classes. Everyone on this list is an amateur, you are an amateur until you are racing elite ITU level.

I think it more shows that AG distinctions don't necessarily have to be in discrete 5 year buckets. While there is a substantive difference between a 50 year old and a 65 year old, there's no reason that everyone under 40 or 45 of the same gender couldn't just be lumped into one large category.
Quote Reply
Re: When is an amateur not an amateur? [npage148] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
npage148 wrote:
So you're a pro if you win 50$ at some Podunk tri or 5k? Running is nice because there's no pros, just elites. If you run fast enough you are never excluded from money or the OA win.

There is a difference between competing FOR money, and competing and winning money.

The real issue here is people getting pissed that some ex-pro is taking their KQ slot. That ex-pro wasn't eligible for prize money in the same race.
Quote Reply
Re: When is an amateur not an amateur? [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yeah. I see the flip side of being upset by being beaten by a sandbagger (which is the ultimate complaint here) , but that's gonna be an issue that is not easily mediated in any sport. Which is why i take the road racing stance where there's one field and you're gonna have to race whomever showed. The best way to beat a sandbagger is to be a good cherry picker. But splitting the field so you don't get beat by a former pro is in the everyone gets a throphy realm of thinking.
Quote Reply
Re: When is an amateur not an amateur? [npage148] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
No, finisher medals for a sprint tri is everyone gets a trophy realm.

Pactimo brand ambassador, ask me about promo codes
Quote Reply
Re: When is an amateur not an amateur? [Ironmanager] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Perhaps we should get rid of age groups all together. Sort like other sports, e.g. USATF, and have Elite, Masters, and Grand Masters . . . that's it. Kind of sad for me at a recent race I was a bit old to be competitive in Grand Masters :-)!

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
Quote Reply
Re: When is an amateur not an amateur? [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Why would we stop at 2? There should be 22 winners, when you count ag wins........ There is only 1 REAL winner, and that's who crosses the finish line first
Quote Reply
Re: When is an amateur not an amateur? [friesen] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Men and women are in a seperate race.
Quote Reply
Re: When is an amateur not an amateur? [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Same race, different division
Quote Reply
Re: When is an amateur not an amateur? [abbottj123] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
[quote abbottj123There are tons of Age Groupers who are as good if not better than Pros.[/quote]

Familiar with Steve, but can you provide some other names for me. I try to research my peers if they are within +-8% of my ability level, I feel this can be important if racing paths ever cross regardless of whether they hold an elite card or not.


Save: $50 on Speed Hound Recovery Boots | $20 on Air Relax| $100 on Normatec| 15% on Most Absorbable Magnesium

Blogs: Best CHEAP Zwift / Bike Trainer Desk | Theragun G3 vs $140 Bivi Percussive Massager | Normatec Pulse 2.0 vs Normatec Pulse | Speed Hound vs Normatec | Air Relax vs Normatec | Q1 2018 Blood Test Results | | Why HED JET+ Is The BEST value wheelset
Last edited by: Thomas Gerlach: Jul 29, 15 15:55
Quote Reply
Re: When is an amateur not an amateur? [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You're a hypocrite. First, you called a guy a sexist prick for saying there was only one winner of a race. You claimed there were 2 winners. Now you say they are in separate races. If they are separate races, wouldn't there only be one winner per race?

Mic drop
Quote Reply

Prev Next