What HRM are you using that works in the water?

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

You are right!!!


Sleeveless is never faster. If the water is too warm for a full sleeve wetsuit it is probably too warm for sleeveless.

I am still amazed there is a debate of sleeveless vs sleeved. (sorry this is a little pet hate). To those that say that sleeves can be restrictive my suggestion is try the TYR Cat 5. If your prepared to fork out the big money for a bike I would do the same for the wetsuit. It will help your bike time (you will be noticeably less fatigued in a well fitted top-end wetsuit as you will not waste as much energy battling with a restrictive cheaper one, my own personal experience I will admit). The longer the distance the more important having a good wetsuit it, as the issue of restriction causing shoulder fatigue will get more prevalent over time.

One time I did a race with the water right at the cut-off (I think it was 23.5 celcius). The 2k swim was a little warm, every now and then I pulled my at the neoprene around the neck to let a tiny bit of water in, that did the trick. Still I wouldve been much faster doing this than going for a sleevless option.

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Thanks for your response. I thought we were discussing a full suit versus a sleeveless suit. I am not questioning the buoyancy effect provided by any suit. I firmly accept, beyond any doubt, that swimming with a wetsuit is faster than without.

So, let's go through a thought experiment. We have 2 suits that are identical in all fashions (thickness, material, density, coating, etc). Wetsuit 1 has sleeves. Wetsuit 2 does not. In the argument pro-sleeves, people oft cite that the sleeves add more buoyancy versus a sleeveless. I doubt that the level of additional buoyancy created by one arm during the reach phase is significant compared with the overall effect created by the rest of the body (even at the banned 8mm thickness of the DeSoto Rover). When I recover, the arm is out of the water. When I reach, the arm is under the water by about 2-4 inches in a vertical plane. When I try to keep it on top, I catch a lot of air which is detrimental to the stroke. I just don't see how the added buoyancy of the sleeve helps me here. Just curious is all.

As I just learned from other posters, and accept, it may not be the buoyancy in the sleeves but the additional surface area. Also, many sleeves have a drag feature on the forearm to increase catch resistance, so that counts too.

FWIW, I have both sleeves and sleeveless. My fastest IM swim was in a sleeveless wetsuit. But, I am crediting better training for that success and not the lack of neoprene in the arms.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

I accept too that the full sleeve wetsuit has more buoyancy during the reach phase and should be faster. Aside from a few Ironmans in the mid 90's which were all done before I busted my shoulder (now have reduced shoulder mobility), all of my fastest half and full Ironman swims have come with no sleeves. Perhaps for me, the full sleeve also hurts some of my "already reduced" mobility. Generally though, I keep using the full sleeve suits, because it is too cold around here for all but 1 month to use anything else, and I like to believe that guys like Desertdude who have done fairly controlled tests, have the data to back things up....perhaps my fastest times have come in sleeveless suits, because those races were later in the year, and I'm just in better swim shape, given that I stop swimming every winter...in a good year I start up swimming in March, in a bad year, I start up in mid April...so that might be the biggest culprit. I'm just pointing out that there are many factors at play that we probably should not overlook when making statements that we are faster in no sleeves. As you can see in my case, there are a ton of variables at play. Perhaps I need to go swim on a marked course that is 400m in length with no current, and alternate between suits, and wear a heart rate monitor (yikes....is taht even approved on ST?) to keep the effort the same!

While you might think that Emilio would totally disagree. If you read his posts about the water rover it is the thick sleeves that have a greater impact than the body panels in making the water rover faster. Counterintuitive, maybe, but that is what makes the distinction between a philosopher and a scientist. We can all agree that science works, right?

Not to you specifically but what suits do you have that restrict arm movement?

I would submit that sleeveless is never faster. Can't be. Not if the suit fits properly anyhow but that is a whole other issue. A poor fitting suit could theoretically be slower than no suit.

Check this old thread

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...;;page=unread#unread

This post kinda covers it.

Re: Is a full westuit faster than a sleeveless? [Dreadnought] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

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"Would you recommend a sleeveless or full seeve wetsuit for St. Anthony's?"

i would recommend a full sleeve wetsuit for st anthony's, st peter's, st matthew's, anthony's fish grotto, anthony and cleopatra's, and any other race for which triathlons are legal.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

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Train safe & smart
Bob

The place you are really going to notice a huge difference is in sighting. With a full suit, the neoprene on the arms really helps to hold up your front end in excellent alignment when sighting.

Never faster. Have you ever seen a pro in a sleeveless in recent years? The buoyancy and grip of the best full suits is unbeatable fast. Plus now chance of water going down the sleeve

My apologies for the bad analogy. Basically what I'm saying is that with a full sleeve wetsuit you receive a better glide on the long part of your stroke than you will with bare arms. For some in open water swimming a longer stroke is more efficient.

That being said, an ill fitting, or thick in the shoulders, or not flexible wetsuit will likely cause some early fatigue over a longer swim. Swimming purists refuse to wear wetsuits, but when given the option most of them would select sleeveless. This is because of the feel you get with a sleeveless suit, plus freedom of your shoulders and likely more room for bigger upper back and shoulder muscles. Will this be the case and work well for everybody? Probably not. One swimmer might have a greater swim result with the full sleeve and the next swim one with a sleeveless.

The bottom line is that the full sleeve suit, proper fitting, flexible, and worn correctly will be faster. It's not going to take you from swimming 1:45 pace to 1:10, but it will make your stroke more efficient through greater water moved each pull, a longer glide (rest phase), less drag, and warmer (if that is your concern).

If you chose an aero helmet over a regular helmet, then perhaps a full sleeve suit would have a similar effect on your race.

jake

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Get outside!