I'd call the factory and try to get in touch with someone who does fittings there. Tell them exactly what you told us. Why you think the fit isn't great, and also why you're talking to them rather than bad mouthing the fit right to the customer first. I'd approach it not from the "Hey, you guys f'ed up" perspective, but from the "based on my experience, this customer will not have a good experience with his purchase" approach. They may tell you to pound sand and do nothing about it. They may do something to make it right. Either way it puts the ball in their court. If they blow you off, then I think that gives you the green light to tell the customer how you feel. If they bitch at you for doing so, hey, you tried to get them involved.

Pooks: You're hired. DAmn, I went to all these schools. Why the hell didn't I think of that? DUUDYDYYYUYYYYYYY!!!:(
Excellent suggestion.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I would send the guy back to the factory with a recommendation to discuss with them the bike fit. You don’t need to be confrontational. You can argue that, in your point of view, the frame is too large for him, but the frame factory is right people to check this out, since they measured him and built the frame. If the guy went to you besides of having bought a customized bike I assume he feels uncomfortable while riding it. He has to contact the factory and report them what is going on. If you don’t tell him the truth, he may go to bike shop next door and someone is going to ask him: “Didn’t Tom tell you this frame is too large for you?” Once you’ve detected the problem, in my opinion, you’re responsible for it too.

Good observation. I was discussing it in here with a friend of mine and he said "If you were a doctor and detected cancer in one of your friends would you tell them? You have an obligation to tell them." Yup, damn. I'm going to call the factory. Man, I'm telling you guys- never underestimate someone's ability to sell the wrong bike or f@#$-up someone's fit. For God's sake- be careful where you get your bike. I'm glad this happened. It's time to give the troops another of my many "Our sacred trust" speeches. If we did this, I would be embarrassed. I wish you could have seen this in person....

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

The figure you used is exactly what I thought about.

When I posted my reply I haven't read Pooks one. Definitively, you contact them is the best way to go.

Tom,

Taking a broader, long term view, perhaps you can incorporate an indirect method using visual aids to help. Specifically, Henry James offers a rudimentary poster of sorts on his web site that depicts varying degrees of rider posture/positioning and how they relate to fit, performance and comfort. You do much the same with your tri bike fit primer on your website (and, FWIW, I think yours is far more sophisticated). Perhaps you can generate larger copies of selected photos from that and post them in your store with a banner titled "Proper Bike Fit" or something like that. IOW, you would have something that you can not only point to as a rudimentary but visually impacting example, but you will also have something that customers can look at as well.

If you've already got something like this, I apologize. I've never been there. Having lived in San Diego for many years and having witnessed the blank looks on a lot of faces as folks at Nytro or B & L tried to explain bike fit, I often thought that visual aids of this sort would help the generally uninformed consumer.

Scott

We actually do have some graphics that depict the finer points of fit. But, I think it would be a good idea to take that up a notch or two.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

The thing is, I think that fit can be an intimidating experience. Spending that sort of money doesn't come easy to most folks, and not all LBSs offer a warm, inviting atmosphere. For instance, I'm perfectly at ease walking into Nytro and telling whomever helps me what I want. I can ask intelligent questions and use their expertise to make informed decisions. But, then again, I've been doing this for a number of years and I'm something of a geek/weirdo/disciple of yours, Dan's and Cobb's. I read and re-read the same information over and over again in an effort to learn more (reference your "extreme" suggestions in the other posts). Not so for everyone else, though.

For a newbie, this can be a hard nut to crack, and it's easy to either get saturated by information overload or get intimidated by a perceived attitude of technical elitism. By the same token, it's also easy--far too easy--to get snookered into buying the wrong bike, whether it be by an LBS looking to get rid of older inventory or by a good-intentioned but uninformed salesperson.

Honestly, how many of us on this board have bought the wrong sized bike at one time or another? I bet most have. I certainly did when I first delved into triathlon. I even went to a so-called tri-specialty store (which is no longer in business in Solana Beach I might add), where I was provided with the old "2 inches under your crotch and a fistfull of seatpost" horse poo for my fit criteria. That was 10 years ago and I didn't know any better. Also, there wasn't an readily accessible body of work to learn from available on the internet back then.

That's where a chart or poster might have helped. Again, look at it from the perspective of a tri newbie walking into your store for the first time. He/she approaches you and timidly announced his/her intention to get into tri or road biking. You, no doubt, take the time to discuss, explain and assess as required. I have no doubt that the customer is put at ease by your demeanor, but they still might be a little skeptical. That's where the visual aids help--they lend a tangible visual representation of what things like "torso angle" and "saddle to bar drop" mean.

Unfortunately, not all LBSs are created equal and yes, it's very important to select a good one.

Thanks for listening,

Scott

If you do not tell the truth to a customer, you have no business being in retail, imo. If you refit the guy, and then somebody tells him that the bike is way too big, it will bite you in the ass. Always do the right thing.

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"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC

That is the consensus. He gets the bad news one way or another tomorrow (we're calling him).

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Tom, I didn't know you were hiring. I might have to take you up on it!! ;)

Tom, This of course falls into that age old ethical dilemma about doing the right thing. As a bike retailer your job (I'd even call it duty, but that's my military background speaking) is to make sure this customer has a good bike experience. While you can't be responsible for the factory's poor fitting advice to this customer, you obviously feel some responsiblity to make it right.

You've got to do two things: First, tell the emperor he has no clothes. Call the factory and talk to them, in as non-confrontational tone as possible as others have already advised. Take your problem as high as you have to on their end to make your point. Don't settle for some underling telling you to pound sand. Politely ask to speak to his/her boss. If that person won't help, go higher until you get action. The customer, and your reputation as a dealer deserve this extra attention.

Second, advise the customer about your issues with the fit, and also tell them that you have talked with the company also. If the manufacturer offered to make things right somehow, offer to help facilitate the transaction. If not, just advise the customer concerning the fit issues and your recommendations.

At that point, the ball is back in the customer and/or the manufacturer's court.... You've done all you can. You gotta rock the boat once in a while just to make sure you're still afloat.

Tom,

I think thats a great Idea about contacting the factory. A LBS with experienced and knowlegable people is worth its weight in titanium. This guy will learn that, and you will reep more than just the 5k he spent on the bike.

Tom-You are in a difficult position, but I think if you handle it right, you may be able to not only make a customer happy, but also impress the company that sold them the bike in the first place.

The first thing I would do is figure out if there is any reason why he may have been told to buy this size. Is there a comfort/fit/other reason? By calling the factory, and by bringing up to the customer that this may not be his optimal size, you may find out why it was recommended.

Next, you have to make sure that the customer knows you are not doing this for your own selfish reasons. If I went into a bike shop after spending $5000 at the factory, and was told the bike didn’t fit, I would think one of two things. One, the guy at the bike shop is just trying to sell me another bike so he can make some money. Or, the shop owner is mad because I didn’t buy the bike from him, so he wants to make my bike look like it doesn’t fit me. Either way, you come out a loser.

If there is no reason why the customer should have the large bike, and there is no way to make it fit, I would use that passion you say you have for making people fit on their bikes, and demand the company send you a new frame. Then make the company pay you to switch out the components. If you explain to them that the customer is never going to be happy on the bike, and it doesn’t fit him, and he’s probably going to crash and sue them and…well, you get the picture.

Not only will the customer be happy and appreciative, I would think the company themselves will be impressed that you are indeed that passionate about perfection

Hope this helps!!!.

Tom,

You got tons of great advice but allow me to give you the other perspective. I've been that guy who was poorly sized and fitted by the original seller of the bike. When I eventually lost faith in the bike shop (for several reasons), I got re-fitted somewhere else. This guy was faced with the same dilemma as you were. He was gentle but blunt and told me that he felt the bike was too big for me and, more importantly, explained why. I can't tell how appreciative I was and it turned out to be a great learning experience for me. I also can't tell you how irritating it is when I find out later that some fitter or bike dude didn't give me his honest opinion or noticed that I did something stupid but didn't want to call me on it.

All I know is that the only way I'm going to learn more about this sport is by listening to the people who might be telling me something I don't want to hear as well as I listen to the people who do tell me what I want to hear. Thanks, Chris

Tom,

I mean no disrespect at all here, but....



...on your stores web site, in the review of the the P2K, you talk a bit about QR, and I quote:

"To this day, Quintana Roo retains that heritage with shorter top tubes than anyone in the industry per frame seat tube size. This makes them an invaluable sizing tool for people (male or female) with a shortish torso, but a compromise fit for others. As a result, to some degree Quintana Roo has "sized themselves into a corner"- the corner of short torso, 78 dewgree seat angle long legged athletes- in both genders. That's a big corner, but if you aren't one of them, QR may be off your short list. "

Elsewhere here on the slowtwitch site, DE includes the QR bikes for Longbody Roddy and his son, Longbody Roddy Jr. You can't both be right. Or can you?

So how do I explain this???



Paul M

Tom,

What's the score? You made any calls yet?

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"Language most shows a man: Speak, that I may see thee. It springs out of the most retired and inmost parts of us, and is the image of the parents of it, the mind. No glass so mirrors a man's form or likeness so true as his speech." - Ben Jonson, Timber, or Discoveries made upon Men and Matter.