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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
You are proving my entire point. Your celebrating you've done hundreds of triathlons....How many triathlons have your son or daughters done, why aren't you celebrating that? You made a point...."you do it because you want to do it"...That's exactly my point, for whatever reason your generation's kids who are now the millennials want nothing to do with the sport. Your generation who's basically been among the largest age groups from the 80's to now, has created the sport that younger generations want nothing to do with. It's a sport that is filled with old people. And then you wonder why the sport isn't growing?

ETA: Which is my point...to make a change you need to evolve. And as I said a few pages ago, some of the changes are considered far to radical for your generation. The biggest reason for pro drafting you completely missed....cost. Draft legal races are cheaper for equipment purchases for the overwhelming majority of people. No longer would it be an aero arms race to "buy" speed that it is now...just look at the prices of an average tri bike; almost $3k? You have far better choices of road bikes at cheaper price points than you do for tri bikes. You simply get back to the more basics of show up with what you got, and get after it.


There are a lot of routes to triathlon and you are making the assumption that us old people doing triathlons are part of the group doing them regularly since way back when. I'm only a data point of one, but I did 2 triathlons in 1980 several years before USAT existed, before rules existed (i.e., all races in 1980 were draft legal), before gear existed, etc. Then I went right back to running because triathlon was EXPENSIVE and time consuming. I paid $15 for a half-iron in 1980 and thought that was really steep. I thought about doing another tri in the late 80s but by then lock step pedals and aerobars were on the scene, helmets were now required and I didn't have the money for that. On a lark, I competed in a sprint triathlon in 1994...only my 3rd triathlon in 14 years, and that was that. Finally, I came back to the sport full-timein 2006 just before I turned 49, because I simply could no longer withstand the mileage I needed (wanted) to run to stay competitive in single sport. So now I've been at triathlon for a little over 11 years.

My influence has led three of my four kids to have done triathlons. Two have done 70.3s and one has completed an ironman. But none are in the sport now for the same reason I didn't stay with it in my 20s...too expensive and too time consuming. You can change the rules all you want but you cannot change this one fundamental nature of the sport...even if you go draft legal. Equipment requirements (even with a good road bike) plus entry fees are just so much more expensive than other options.

Meanwhile, the sport is evolving. XTreme triathlons have proliferated as Ironman became Everyman, the IM70.3 circuit and associated WC was created and is extremely popular while Olympic distance has shriveled, Duathlon is nearly dead, and SwimRuns are exploding. I look around and I do not see stasis. However, I am not against change at all. I am merely a consumer of sports experiences; and as a consumer I look at the market offerings and select those that provide the most value for me; just as my adult children look around and do the same...and they have all chosen the same sport I did at that age ... running. It is classic, simple, and inexpensive. My point is that triathlon will never be mainstream and the fact that the sport is retrenching back from a short-lived stretch of extreme popularity represents a return to normalcy and nothing more.
Last edited by: HuffNPuff: Jan 4, 18 8:27
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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Except draft legal racing creates far cheaper equipment options. Like I’m not sure how that is debatable. Road bikes on average are far cheaper option than a tri bike. And let’s not forget a road bike isn’t really an aero arms race that led to the price of bikes like they are. Sure there are aero bikes vs non aero frames but a road bike isn’t designed to buy “speed” like tri bikes have become.

But if your telling me price of tri vs running is reason why tri won’t gain appeal, that’s not even a debate worth happening; of course that’s the case. But if your asking me ways to make the sport cheaper and still competitive- take away the tri bike and relax on the rules....

So I’ll ask this.....what other options can you suggest to make the sport cheaper that can be real world applicable. DL races are becoming a thing so what option can the sport do? Cheaper races....ok where is this happening at?

So I’m just asking how do you actually make changes beyond saying DL isn’t going to help. If it doesn’t help, ok cool. But is that all you can say to help?

We are on 180 replies and not one single thing has been suggested except my DL theory.

ETA: I’m cool with DL not being the thing that brings it back. I’m not cool with saying it won’t work or won’t make it cheaper and come up with no ideas. That’s sorta pointless to tell me x won’t work but not come up with Y, when the reasons why x can work are things that help with the issue- financial cost.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Jan 4, 18 9:10
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Except draft legal racing creates far cheaper equipment options. Like I’m not sure how that is debatable. Road bikes on average are far cheaper option than a tri bike. And let’s not forget a road bike isn’t really an aero arms race that led to the price of bikes like they are. Sure there are aero bikes vs non aero frames but a road bike isn’t designed to buy “speed” like tri bikes have become.

But if your telling me price of tri vs running is reason why tri won’t gain appeal, that’s not even a debate worth happening; of course that’s the case. But if your asking me ways to make the sport cheaper and still competitive- take away the tri bike and relax on the rules....

So I’ll ask this.....what other options can you suggest to make the sport cheaper that can be real world applicable. DL races are becoming a thing so what option can the sport do? Cheaper races....ok where is this happening at?

So I’m just asking how do you actually make changes beyond saying DL isn’t going to help. If it doesn’t help, ok cool. But is that all you can say to help?

We are on 180 replies and not one single thing has been suggested except my DL theory.

Just a few comments:

1. The aero arms race is over. We are at peak aero which has been noted on thread after thread.
2. I don't think a change to road bikes would make any dent in tri participation. Most folks ride tri bikes like road bikes anyway.
3. I cannot suggest any options that makes triathlon cheaper that doesn't change the nature of the sport.

Triathlon is what it is. Just as yachting is what it is. Hi cost, niche sports that aren't for everyone.
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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You point is key running is simple let alone cheap and easy.

Swimming is a pain. Takes too much time. Too much effort to find a pool. And when i did masters not friendly unless you had swim genetics. Swim with a wetsuit, swimmers that we are a joke and have problem telling us non swimmers this.

Most folks who ask why will never get it. As posted only folks with top genetics are asking the question.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:


We are on 180 replies and not one single thing has been suggested except my DL theory.


Excellent idea from another recent thread - http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ur_help._P6503881-2/. Definitely something different. Probably too boring, however, for all but the hardcore. I'd consider doing, but I'd have to buy a more expensive device than the Timex IM watch I currently use to track my training. :)

strtezbckoff wrote:
A close friend and I have been discussing something similar. Our idea would be a Strava type triathlon. Build your course, and challenge the crowd. Transitions don’t matter, as you might be the only one at the parking lot that particular day. Only segment times count. This way you could swim at lake A, bike route B, and run route C with more variety. Keep,the course open 30 days. Participants meet at the local watering spot, where the winner receives a free beer, or whatever. Challenging, local, grassroots, social.
Done.


A variation would be to do a time-trial start tri with a club or group of friends. Ride at your own risk. No entry fee. Just for bragging. Not glamorous for sure, but it is cheap racing.
Last edited by: Mark Lemmon: Jan 4, 18 9:52
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Except draft legal racing creates far cheaper equipment options. Like I’m not sure how that is debatable. Road bikes on average are far cheaper option than a tri bike. And let’s not forget a road bike isn’t really an aero arms race that led to the price of bikes like they are. Sure there are aero bikes vs non aero frames but a road bike isn’t designed to buy “speed” like tri bikes have become.

But if your telling me price of tri vs running is reason why tri won’t gain appeal, that’s not even a debate worth happening; of course that’s the case. But if your asking me ways to make the sport cheaper and still competitive- take away the tri bike and relax on the rules....

So I’ll ask this.....what other options can you suggest to make the sport cheaper that can be real world applicable. DL races are becoming a thing so what option can the sport do? Cheaper races....ok where is this happening at?

So I’m just asking how do you actually make changes beyond saying DL isn’t going to help. If it doesn’t help, ok cool. But is that all you can say to help?

We are on 180 replies and not one single thing has been suggested except my DL theory.

ETA: I’m cool with DL not being the thing that brings it back. I’m not cool with saying it won’t work or won’t make it cheaper and come up with no ideas. That’s sorta pointless to tell me x won’t work but not come up with Y, when the reasons why x can work are things that help with the issue- financial cost.

DL races are becoming a thing so what option can the sport do?
Where? Not in New England. There are no RDs in the area planning to put on DL races. I've done seven in the states since 2015. Five were USAT races and two were ITU.

Back to the point: A question to ask is where are we going get new participants from (or said another way, what s the target age pool). I started my athletic "career" in 1993 at age 31. I did a 5K road race in June and a sprint triathlon in September. I honestly don't know how I found out about that race. Should we target high schoolers? Collegiate? 20-somethings? 30-somethings? The older groups are already reasonably well represented (in a lot of races the 45-59 AG is a majority of the men's pool). I suspect a lot of respondents to this thread fall into this (and the 60-64) group.

My 16 year old son is not interested. Tennis is his "thing". He's done 5K road races but they are "too hard". I have two teenage nephews and a teenage niece who are on their HS cross country/track team and one even swims. None have any interest in triathlon (even though they know about the sport). They prefer Spartan races.
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
Except draft legal racing creates far cheaper equipment options. Like I’m not sure how that is debatable. Road bikes on average are far cheaper option than a tri bike. And let’s not forget a road bike isn’t really an aero arms race that led to the price of bikes like they are. Sure there are aero bikes vs non aero frames but a road bike isn’t designed to buy “speed” like tri bikes have become.

But if your telling me price of tri vs running is reason why tri won’t gain appeal, that’s not even a debate worth happening; of course that’s the case. But if your asking me ways to make the sport cheaper and still competitive- take away the tri bike and relax on the rules....

So I’ll ask this.....what other options can you suggest to make the sport cheaper that can be real world applicable. DL races are becoming a thing so what option can the sport do? Cheaper races....ok where is this happening at?

So I’m just asking how do you actually make changes beyond saying DL isn’t going to help. If it doesn’t help, ok cool. But is that all you can say to help?

We are on 180 replies and not one single thing has been suggested except my DL theory.

Just a few comments:

1. The aero arms race is over. We are at peak aero which has been noted on thread after thread.
2. I don't think a change to road bikes would make any dent in tri participation. Most folks ride tri bikes like road bikes anyway.
3. I cannot suggest any options that makes triathlon cheaper that doesn't change the nature of the sport.

Triathlon is what it is. Just as yachting is what it is. Hi cost, niche sports that aren't for everyone.

On point 2... Forcing people to use DL style bikes equals the playing field, so people don't feel the need to buy a tri bike. Road bikes are everywhere. The races need not DL. Just ban TT bikes
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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There's a lot of equipment that you could ban and save folks a lot of money. I'm not holding my breath that USAT will take that step and thus put a lot of companies out of business.
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Jctriguy wrote:
endosch2 wrote:
Steve-oH! wrote:
Can you admit now that Gwen Jorgensens Gold Medal did nothing for Triathlon participation?


I agree that this really did nothing for triathlon.

In order for it to have an impact on Americans it would need to be sustained and at least moderately visible over a period of time. I don't think that her win even had moderate visibility in the US, and certainly was not sustained. The last example I can think of leading to a change in participation of americans in an endurance sport was Lance Armstrong in cycling, sustained presence, fairly visible to the broad population of Americans.

Gwens performance while totally admirable has passed in the wind at this point. Totally wishful thinking if you think that would make an impact on triathlon.


I think you are maybe not seeing the scale of triathlon and what an impact would look like. Do you think there are 1,000 kids who are runners/swimmers that saw Gwen win and now plan to start triathlon? Maybe 10,000? I’m sure no one is talking about a massive groundswell of participation that hits the mainstream levels like soccer or football.

I think you should move the decimal 3-4 places to the left and you will have an accurate measurement of the effect.
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [endosch2] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, I think maybe 10 is the right answer.
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [HandHeartCrown] [ In reply to ]
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They aren’t in a lot of places but the fact that you have done 5 DL races in US in 3 race seasons and 2 itu (I’m assuming worlds) sorta is my point. DL racing is a thing much more than any other discussion point. While it may not be in many locations and they aren’t, they are atleast at a starting point.

So my point was DL is not this imaginary thing that Brooks on ST is pushing on my own island. You may not think it is going to help and that’s fine but to simply say DL won’t work.....cool. Just give me something to discuss to actual solving the problem.


I think the next starting point is women. Which is what the federation is pushing (women and short course focused racing). Get more women in races and you’ll bring the full family into the sport potentially.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
They aren’t in a lot of places but the fact that you have done 5 DL races in US in 3 race seasons and 2 itu (I’m assuming worlds) sorta is my point. DL racing is a thing much more than any other discussion point. While it may not be in many locations and they aren’t, they are atleast at a starting point.

So my point was DL is not this imaginary thing that Brooks on ST is pushing on my own island. You may not think it is going to help and that’s fine but to simply say DL won’t work.....cool. Just give me something to discuss to actual solving the problem.


I think the next starting point is women. Which is what the federation is pushing (women and short course focused racing). Get more women in races and you’ll bring the full family into the sport potentially.

I think you mis-understood my point. I'm all game for DL racing. I love it and would love to see it expand. My point was that currently, it's primarily USAT putting on DL races (although there may be one in San Diego and another in FL). Based on my chats, the RDs in New England aren't really interested in putting on DL races because of insurance and course availability (they need to close or more tightly control the bike course).

Which age group women are you targeting? USAT has their big collegiate push, which is good. There are several women only races in NE that are very well attended. They provide a LOT of support on the swim, though, for those who are weak swimmers. Swim is the biggest impediment. My brother is a strong cyclist and a decent runner but swims like a brick. He does Spartan races, not triathlon.
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [HandHeartCrown] [ In reply to ]
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Right but what I think will happen is this. Let’s say in 2020 or 2023 every region suddenly has an RD/Race that puts on DL. I’m guessing suddenly those same RD’s who say no now, *may* change their mind. No way in hell do I think races become DL in 5 years, it’s a process. I just think it’s a format that will become more popular.

I mean I get it, DL right now has to be an RD with balls. But usually it’s when those with balls go for it and then suddenly people jump on the idea as well. So do I think it’ll only be USAT races in 3-4 years, no. Clermont usually puts on an AG race with their EDR race weekend in March. I like that venue a lot.

The thing with those venues are that it’s setup for lap races because it itu course. But for AG racing you can do 1 lap venues if it is easier on RD’s...that will allow race timeline to go faster then waiting around for each race to finish.

Collegiate numbers are increasing a lot. Like I said pre Rio 2016 I think there were 7 schools. Since then it’s up to 25ish schools. I’m not saying it’s directly correlated to GJ, but if some want to say she’s not had an impact cus numbers still suck, I can showcase that the numbers in that age group are this. Was it GJ? Is it free money? Combo? So this whole GJ has failed to increase numbers is too simple of a statement when there are layers you have to look at.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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It's not a RD with balls that's the problem. Draft legal courses will require closed roads. Permits for these races just won't be approved in many areas. This is also a large part of the problem with race entry costs. Cities make it prohibitively expensive to hold a race. At the same time, if the race is somewhere far away, people have to pay for travel and won't go.
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with you on DL racing. That's why I ask the "ballsy" RDs in the area every year about their DL game plan. I'm trying to do my very small part to move the needle.

But, this won't help the non-swimmers. If they had more duathlons in the area, I wouldn't do triathlons. But I like competing so I struggle through the swim to get to the run.
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [endosch2] [ In reply to ]
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You are without doubt 100% incorrect. Just as a question, how much contact do you have with youth sport participants? Are you a high school/college coach? Do you run a club? Are you a race director for youth events? Just curious to add some context to your replies.
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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DL not tri or du imo has nothing to help the decline

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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DL races are going to be venue specific as to the needs. If you want to do an urbanish venue, the solution to a closed course? Lapped bike course. Go look at the Sarasota race course. It's located just outside the mall and a 4 lane road goes around the lake. So they simply shut down 1 of the lanes and leave 3 lanes for traffic. Clermont venue closes off the beach section of the state park. A course that is done at the IM Raleigh 70.3 swim venue could be done with "rolling" closures similiar to what bike road race events do. Atleast the races here in NC, they have rolling closure with cops leading front and back of the packs, and if you fall out of that "closed" area you are simply on your own...ie- ride to the right. So it's simply going to be very venue specific to the needs, and you can work the needs in a few different ways. The New Orleans course last year was I think 1 or 2 laps, so there are all kinds of different courses they can use that addresses the permit type of issues.

And I also said early in this thread, the biggest headache for DL events if for RD's dealing with these added permit issues and what that does to the cost. The RD's in the NE who aren't doing it, I can also guess why- because there is no demand for DL events still. 3 out of 100 want really care to do DL events, so of course it's easy to use the excuse of permits, etc for why you aren't doing DL events. To them, it's a solution to something that isn't currently a problem for them. Which is why I said, it just takes others who want to take on the headache and maybe the succeed and maybe they fail. But if they succeed and demand increases, you bet there will be a race in the NE....

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Jctriguy wrote:
You are without doubt 100% incorrect. Just as a question, how much contact do you have with youth sport participants? Are you a high school/college coach? Do you run a club? Are you a race director for youth events? Just curious to add some context to your replies.

I have no idea how you could entertain the notion that Gwen Jorgenson has brought 1000 -10000 young women into the sport - to me that seems delusional. She does not get any exposure outside of our universe. More than that at this point it is a year in the past.

I am a member of a tri club. I have teenage daughters. One has raced Xterra and other tris. The younger 15 year old does road and mountain bike races. There is a massive high school mountain bike league in New England that has 600 racers spread across 40 or so private and public schools. Mountain biking is growing at high school ages around 20%. The 18 year old who races tris has never once had a competitor in a local or regional triathlon. She qualified for Nationals in Omaha but decided not to go.

Different sport - same concept - Both of my daughters are also high level nordic skiers. The US Womens Nordic team (Jesse Diggins, Sadie Bjornsen, Sophie Caldwell, Kikkan Randall) is the best it has ever been in world cup rankings and podiums in history but I would not believe for a minute that has effected even 200 young girls positively in a way to make them join the sport.
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
There's a lot of equipment that you could ban and save folks a lot of money. I'm not holding my breath that USAT will take that step and thus put a lot of companies out of business.

Most tri bikes can be converted to road bikes. Also they can be phased out, perhaps a points system awarding more for those who use road bikes. Hmm maybe we can throw wetsuits into this game
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [endosch2] [ In reply to ]
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I'm looking up numbers for her scholarship which was started in 2014.

2014- "over 100 applicants"....cant find exact number.

2015- 111 apply for her scholarship.

2016- 223 applied for the scholarship.

2017- not sure how many applied, i can only find the winners just not total applicants. They also made applicants send in videos for their application, so that was a cool social media savy move on instagram (my juniors who applied were so nervous applying for it on "camera", lol). I would also wagger it kept some people from applying as the scholarships were for race directors/coaches/athletes. I had applied twice when it was a paper email entry, before but didn't want to send in a video blog, so our juniors sent in individual applications.


Like I said earlier with NCAA schools. Before Rio NCAA schools were at 7 or 8. Since Rio, it's gone up to 25 schools. Is it because of GJ? Free money has been there for the schools since the start. Is it because of budget and schools being initially afraid? Better marketing campaign to schools from usat staff? Could be a number of things, but I can just tell you that from when she won in Rio, suddenly NCAA schools tripled. She has likely a larger reach then some are suggesting and maybe not as big as the biggest number mentioned. Irregardless of whether it's her directly or not, but youth numbers are improving. HS numbers are growing as it's HS club/school racing is now going to be in it's 3rd year.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
HuffNPuff wrote:
There's a lot of equipment that you could ban and save folks a lot of money. I'm not holding my breath that USAT will take that step and thus put a lot of companies out of business.


Most tri bikes can be converted to road bikes. Also they can be phased out, perhaps a points system awarding more for those who use road bikes. Hmm maybe we can throw wetsuits into this game

There are time trial races where they have an "Eddy Merckx" segment - those who race regular road bikes.

I think USAT is pushing draft legal so that road bike owners could have a equal standing in a race. If you do draft legal tri bikes are dead, so are the costs associated with them. Too bad road riding is dying too so that pool of road bikes out there will shrink....
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [endosch2] [ In reply to ]
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Usat is only doing dl because the itu forced them. If a choice usat would never do. No real value just issues.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
HuffNPuff wrote:
There's a lot of equipment that you could ban and save folks a lot of money. I'm not holding my breath that USAT will take that step and thus put a lot of companies out of business.


Most tri bikes can be converted to road bikes. Also they can be phased out, perhaps a points system awarding more for those who use road bikes. Hmm maybe we can throw wetsuits into this game

Let's run with this. To keep the arms race from simply shifting over from tri bikes to road bikes we need to also ban clip-on aerobars, tri-cockpits on a road bike, reversible seat posts, Red Shift seat posts, power meters, any cycling computers on the road bike, disc wheels, wheel covers, and any deep dish wheels. Road bike frames must be entirely aluminum with box rim aluminum wheels, and mechanical shifting only with nothing better than Shimano 105. All road bikes must compete with Gatorskins and bike must weigh at least 18 lbs. Hybrid bikes get 3 mins deducted from their split and mountain bikes get a 5 min advantage. USAT refs need to be retrained to ensure to focus on maintaining lowest common denominator equipment.

But before we get to this stage, please tell me when you realistically expect USAT to ban tri-bikes.
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know anyone who bailed on tri because they couldn't afford a nice bike. People my age get that they don't need one to compete, at least the ones who will actually stick around anyway. Also, the used market is generally fairly good if you shop around. People who leave tri do so because they don't like swimming, too busy, expensive races, they're not good at swimming, or they leave for a single sport. Those kinds of things.

It amazes me that duathlon isn't more popular, considering most triathletes don't like swimming and/or they're not very good at it.
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