So essentially what i'm saying is.....evolve. Whatever the best idea is, let's evolve the sport. But again that's really really hard when currently the ones that are feeding races (40+ year olds) are the ones that are likely to not want to accept the changes and thus cause even more trepidation by race companies to change.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Muted? Here is my prediction: all this youth participation and Gwen's win will not result in squat for increased participation.

Allowing drafting would not result in increased participation....like someone said, millennials aren't doing triathlons and drafting wont entice them. Hell, most of the local races I do people in the back of the pack (and mid pack) draft a bit on normal bikes and many of them don't know what drafting isn't and don't really understand what the rules are...nor do they care. They are just biking along after the swim and cant wait to get to the run. What you are proposing really already exists at the local sprint races and participation has not stopped dropping. You are missing the mark.

And I am tempted to pull out race results from the 80's since i kept many of them and I started in 1985 as a 28 year old...if memory serves, 25-29, and 30-34 were large age groups compared to others.

The U20 generation now is growing up to DL races. In 10 years they are the 25-29 and 30-34 AG that will have experienced it already and looking around and saying “why IM when I can do that”.

Like I said I’m not saying it is the answer. I’m just giving things to think about and no one else has brought up anything besides “we are losing numbers”.

We’ve already discussed the 30 year olds in 1985 being in large numbers. It’s also the generation that has resulted directly in their kids NOT picking up the sport. Not placing blame, just find it ironic the biggest numbers in the sport has resulted in the next generation not doing it.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

WTF does that even mean? Are you saying they don't count or you are forecasting in 7 years when they become "adults"?

ETA: I'll go ahead on record and say stick to talking AG participation numbers, because you are incorrect with the wave of youth/junior numbers in the US. And it's only going to increase with the structure USAT has created.

US has for the last 10 years had only a DL pathway for juniors. It's very competitive and has also created a high burnout rate from juniors advancing into ITU (they still do tris they just give up elite development pathway). You have to travel to select races, very demanding competition demands, etc. So the solution that was created was the "HS" pathway. It's a non-draft "team" oriented structure. It's the "age group" pathway for juniors. It will create far bigger numbers in the upcoming years then I imagine the junior elite/DL pathway because it's much less intense and the demands of competiion aren't there. You don't have to worry about getting lapped out, you can race for your "team" and you have a team atmosphere to race with and for. 2018 will be year 3 for the HS "championship". It's still mostly club level teams versus actual high school school teams, so if you live in an area you can form a team and race under 1 team. There are some private schools that have picked it up.

But again, that's not ST approved (most don't even know anything about). So it won't get taken into consideration. And will it cause overall numbers to improve? Of course not, this is probaly at most 15-20% of the population. And that's the funny thing. They get totally blown over yet in 10 years they are the ones that you will be looking for to grow the sport.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

The one thing you must give the sport credit for. They atleast are creating a pathway to get the next generation in the sport. It may fail, but it's going to give it one hell of a attempt to get more numbers.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I have been in triathlon since 1985 and I agree with Mark. As I remember 25-29 was large and there were many <30 participants. So I got out my old results and found some from 1991 and found a results book for a nice size local event the Tulsa Triathlon (I lived in Joplin Missouri at the time)

I think this Triathlon reflects typical numbers for a 1991 Triathlon.

Here are the facts

Total finishers 260

M 15-19 4
M 20-24 12
M 25-29 32
M 30-34 57
M 35-39 48
M 40-44 35
M 45-49 21
M 50-54 8
M 55-59 3
M 60+ 3

% of the field M <30 18.5%

And I picked a single event triathlon from 2017 The Minnetonka Triathlon

Total finishers 451

M 15-19 18
M 20-24 14
M 25-29 25
M 30-34 32
M 35-39 32
M 40-44 26
M 45-49 33
M 50-54 35
M 55-59 34
M 60-64 10
M 65 + 9

% of the field M <30 12.6%

actually the 30-39 year old are letting us down in participation more than they under 30's (even they they share some blame)

M 30-39 as a % of the field in 1991 40.4%
M 30-39 as a % of the field in 2017 14.2% !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And as you can see the older age groups grew huge!

And my reply was when your generation had kids and then didn’t get those kids (who are now the millennials we talk about) in the sport. You are the generation that raised the millennial generation now. So I’m not blaming you guys just stating that as you guys grew the sport, you never looked for the next generation. For whatever the reasons were, that generation that grew up with the sport from the 80’s is directly responsible for the millennial generation that we are now perplexed why they won’t do it.

hint hint- it has everything with the sport/athletes turning the sport into IM and LC focused as you guys "grew" the sport.


That to me is the most puzzling....the people seemingly most shocked by tri participation numbers are the same people who didn't do anything to keep new generations coming into the sport...that's head scratching.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

ha!....i didnt know i was responsible for "getting millennials in the sport". I dont remember anyone "getting me in the sport" I did it because i wanted to. I thought it was a cool challenge to try and be competent at three endurance sports....if you have to "get people in the sport" it assumes they arent internally motivated to do it....and likely wont stick with it. They best situation is you do it because YOU want to do it. Millennials don't and I don't see that changing. Despite all the your USAT and College teams of draftathletes that are small in total numbers anyway....

by the way, I have completed 389 triathlons and only 2 were Ironman, (LC) never my cup of tea, Vast majority of my finishes are sprint triathlons that I have always loved....

You are proving my entire point. Your celebrating you've done hundreds of triathlons....How many triathlons have your son or daughters done, why aren't you celebrating that? You made a point...."you do it because you want to do it"...That's exactly my point, for whatever reason your generation's kids who are now the millennials want nothing to do with the sport. Your generation who's basically been among the largest age groups from the 80's to now, has created the sport that younger generations want nothing to do with. It's a sport that is filled with old people. And then you wonder why the sport isn't growing?

ETA: Which is my point...to make a change you need to evolve. And as I said a few pages ago, some of the changes are considered far to radical for your generation. The biggest reason for pro drafting you completely missed....cost. Draft legal races are cheaper for equipment purchases for the overwhelming majority of people. No longer would it be an aero arms race to "buy" speed that it is now...just look at the prices of an average tri bike; almost $3k? You have far better choices of road bikes at cheaper price points than you do for tri bikes. You simply get back to the more basics of show up with what you got, and get after it.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

What i see in general is the baby boomers was all about me rather than give back. I always wondered why there nevet were any other grandparents pushing their grandkids in stroller 5k races. Oh yea our sport now is only about the bike

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

My generation doesn't even want to race 5k's. It's not about long course. It's about people not wanting to do competitive sport in any form. Look at all the "fun runs" and the obstacle course races that aren't timed. It's about the experience and the Instagram photo. Plus you have to actually train for triathlon and that's too hard.

Which is the biggest point he missed for why athletes would benefit from draft races....Financial side of the sport. But for that generation, you guys have always been able to afford the price changes in the sport, because you are the RICH PEOPLE who make up this sport. TRI is the perfect mid life crisis sport for the lawyer/doctor/engineer/self employee because it's a great challenge and it's niche enough that it makes it special and "cool". ETA: It was "the" sport to do for the 40 something who needed a challenge, because all the other 40 something's were doing it. So it was inviting to that generation. Steve-oh just showed 13% of a race in 2017 was 30 and under.....and the solution to getting more millennials is what? Why would a 28 year old want to get into a sport that is filled with people that are nothing like them. Who wants to get into a sport where your racing a bunch of 45 year olds? But past generations always had many like them, so they could relate.




I just did a quick search of one of the biggest cervelo dealers....

They have 8 bikes in the under $3k for road bikes (3 different models)

They have 4 bikes in the same price point for tri bikes (the same model)

Again if you don't think draft legal races are the thing to bring them in, fine. I just want Steve-oh to tell me what it is. What's the solution? Because this is a sport for old, settled in life people. Now in the last 10 years and specifically in the last 5 years, the U19 category has really been plugged in. It of course will take 5-10 years for them to filter into adulthood to see if they stick. But we are a sport that is old, and when those old people die off, what then?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Wish i was one of those rich folk but..

It is not just tri. Look at golf. How many baby boomers play let alone young folk.

Lots of sports are asking how to get more young. Even hobbies. I play with toy trains. Who are the old folks going to sell their collections to. Or old car buffs?

Young kids are smart. They do not need the stuff their parents slaved for and then got laid off from their jobs by their kids.

Bottom line is most young folks do not have the killer work ethics. Whether work or hobby. They saw their parents get screwed by the company's they made. So why do the same

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

So then you either evolve and figure a way to make it work or you continue to have 25% of your fields 39 and younger....ie old man races. And when those old men die out and races die off because they lose people from the 75% category....you create even a bigger void because less options for new people to come into the sport.

And I'm only suggesting one avenue to evolve...I dont know if that's the right or wrong way, but I'm asking for more suggestions, and no one seems to have them. It also likely is a thing where the people I'm asking suggestions for also don't care if the sport dies off (I'd wager most people in this thread are older....i think very few are younger than 35....i'm 35). They've had their cup of tea and celebrations with the sport. They have no incentive to see the sport evolve.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I am old and want the sport to evolve. Reason why i support short course racing, dl racing and just get rid of the drafting rules

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Well I am one one of those younger people, as long as I've been racing I've thought it's ridiculous that there are so few people in my age group. I think formats like super league are far more attractive to my generation to watch. The question is participation, and I don't know how to do that. I'm in the process of starting my second collegiate triathlon club. The first year of the first one, we were sitting in a booth at the activity fair, I had at least 50 people seem interested in joining. When it came time for the first practice, maybe 10 showed up and I think we had 4 or 5 who actually stuck around. I am proud of the fact that two years later that club seems to be thriving with lots of new members. New university and I'm going to do something similar next week, it'll be interesting to see what happens. There are more races in the conference I'm in now so I hope that helps.

Draft legal racing has some promise becaude its a bit more exciting, but the problem with that format is that the swim is so critical. Most people in the clubs I've been in struggle with swimming, so it's not really a good option for them.

I honestly don't know what the answer is. I don't want the sport to die; haven't even hit my prime yet. If anyone has any ideas as far as clubs go, I'd love any suggestions for gaining/retaining members.

I ran some numbers on the AG DL world tri qualifier in 2017 (i rounded accordingly for each %)

Male vs Female numbers:

Female 70 racers

Female U-30: 19%

Female 30-40: 20%

Male 122 racers

Male U-30: 19%

Male 30-40: 8% (30-34 was smallest AG of any gender category)


Here's the breakdown of DL duathlon nationals:

Male 133 racers

Male U-30: 16%

Male 30-40: 10%

Female U-30: 17%

Female 30-40: 20%




13% non-draft vs 19% DL within the U-30 numbers. What's surprising is that the 30-40 numbers had seemingly the lowest AG numbers within the whole AG ranks (not counting like the 85-89 AG, etc). Now I wanted to use both tri and duathlon DL races to try and show numbers. I don't know of any other well known AG DL race beyond the EDR races that are pretty much U-25 and only (clermont EDR races). I guess I could go back and look at the Rev 3 Rush numbers a few years back (that race died after 2 years). But that race had a very sparse crowd and my junior team and the local junior team took a good number of athletes to it, so it would be skewed.

So again, I'm not saying it's the answer. All I'm saying is that what is the other options.......

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

And to show you why USAT is pushing for more females to get into triathlon......

At the same event I just put numbers on, from the worlds tri qualifier they put on a "free" sprint race. It was free event because it was a give back to the community in Sarasota a month after being hit by a hurricane. I was at this race for the weekend.

AG Sprint "free entry" race.

Female U-30 category- 38%

Male U-30 category- 19%

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Swim in DL is only important for FOP people because AG DL races don't have a lap out rule. But let's go with that premise that you do need to swim more. That's evolution. Your trading in $$$$ spent on geeking out on aero bikes for hard work in the pool. It may not be the answer, but that's what it takes. It takes changing, it takes understand you have to change. You don't get to sit back and think/hope it'll change. You have to accept that what you think of tri now, may not be what tri is in 10-15 years. And like I said, that's mighty hard for people to accept when you've been sitting in the cat bird's seat for pretty much the entirety of your tri career. But I get it, why the hell would a 55 year old want to change how they've race for the last 20 years, when if they just kinda hold out for a few more years, they'll be out anyways.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I agree that this really did nothing for triathlon.

In order for it to have an impact on Americans it would need to be sustained and at least moderately visible over a period of time. I don't think that her win even had moderate visibility in the US, and certainly was not sustained. The last example I can think of leading to a change in participation of americans in an endurance sport was Lance Armstrong in cycling, sustained presence, fairly visible to the broad population of Americans.

Gwens performance while totally admirable has passed in the wind at this point. Totally wishful thinking if you think that would make an impact on triathlon.

 
Here is my prediction: all this youth participation and Gwen's win will not result in squat for increased participation.


The Gwen-Factor and opportunity came and went quickly.

I think as I previously noted, the U.S. wins a lot of gold medals, and triathlon is not one of those marquee or sexy events in the Olympic games like the 100m final in Track & Field or Gymnastics (which NBC is obsessed by). Consequently Gwen's win, get's lost in the mix. And then for completely personal and totally understandable reasons she steps away from triathlon to have a baby, and then when she does decide to, "come-back" from the pregnancy-leave, she comes back not to triathlon, but to running - so the opportunity for triathlon is not just lost, it's dead!*

As for the youth/junior programs - we don't know if this is going to be a "winner". That will only tell over time - a 5 - 10 year period. So you'll have to have some patience for that. In classic sport development, you want to have high numbers of youth participating at the bottome of the sports development pyramid. You know that not all will go on to higher levels of competition, but you know that you will have more coming out the top of the pyramid, if you have more at the bottom!

*It was a different time and era, but Simon Whitfield's Gold medal win in the first Olympic Men's triathlon in Canada, led to a large surge in triathlon participation here. Several factors contributed to that growth - but Canada does not win a lot of Gold medals, so Whitfield instantly became a celebrity and household name across the country! That profile, and exposure certainly helps. By the time we had reached the Beijing Olympic Games (when Whitfield won a silver medal), the Olympic Men's triathlon live TV coverage, was the most watched event on the CBC for the whole of the Olympic Games in Canada!!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I signed up yesterday to do the indoor tri organized by the triathlon club at Ohio State where I work. I've done it for the past 10 years. It's fun to race with college kids at age 58. I'm thinking about going to draft legal nationals this year and am excited about doing another draft legal tri (I did a draft legal duathlon in the late '80s and there used to be a draft legal race in the TTT). I'm thinking about racing on my road bike in all tris (draft legal or not) when my 2000 Cervelo tri bike frame finally cracks. I haven't done a WTC event or a long course tri in a decade.

So I'm willing to evolve. That being said I agree with Steve:



Steve, maybe next year you shouldn't start a thread about triathlon participation being down another year since you write that you don't see it changing.

I think as long as athletes want to do a race combining SBR they will find a way to race. If the bubble bursts on professionally-organized tris in this country, maybe it will evolve (devolve?) to low-key events organized by local tri clubs. I'm guessing those tris would not be draft legal, but instead rely on racers to police themselves regarding positioning rules.

I didn't do a search, but has anyone suggested that us rich old folks with lots of bikes and equipment organize a way to donate our old stuff to tri-eager young adults (post college) who feel they don't have the $ to buy the needed equipment to compete in triathlon? I would suggest we ask in the application how much $ the applicant spends per month on his/her phone bill and other entertainment streaming services. :)

I think you are maybe not seeing the scale of triathlon and what an impact would look like. Do you think there are 1,000 kids who are runners/swimmers that saw Gwen win and now plan to start triathlon? Maybe 10,000? I’m sure no one is talking about a massive groundswell of participation that hits the mainstream levels like soccer or football.

fyi, as a manufacturer, we've seen a spike in demand for swimsuit-style racing gear since she raised to fame.
now does this translates in participation increase? not sure, granted.
but we should be careful in dismissing completely her impact.

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