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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [Mark Lemmon] [ In reply to ]
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I think that's the point though....your talking about an time period with the infancy of the sport, talking about events that happened 30+ years ago. How Mark Lemmon got into the sport at age 23 in 1983 and how Mark Lemmon at age 23 would get into the sport in 2017 would be completely different people. The 2 wouldn't even be able to co-exist, the sport/world/life is that different.

ETA: So whether the U-30 category was the category or not 30 years ago is irrelevant. Because the sport has long moved past where the U-30 can even thrive....it's been completely run over by corporate capitalism that is really only afforded by the middled aged people you mention that it is full of now. The Mark Lemmon of 1983 likely wouldnt even give tri a shot in 2017, and if your as poor as you stated, you'd be lucky to do many races.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Dec 25, 17 20:00
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [Mark Lemmon] [ In reply to ]
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Mark Lemmon wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
I also would argue the U-30 category has never been big in the sport. It really won't ever be because the finances of triathlon.


I wouldn't be surprised if <30 year olds were the largest AGs in tris in the '80s. 1957 had the record for highest no. of births in the U.S. until 2007. Does anyone have full results from any of the early Bud Light Triathlon Series events to confirm that? When I did my first tri in '83 as a recent college grad with little money, I was mainly racing with guys like me, not wealthy middle-aged married men with super bikes and coaches.

That's my recollection too.

Younger AG were at least as strong as older AGs.

It is just that we have aged, and nothing came after us.
There was no concerted effort by the Fed to keep younger kids interested in the Sport.
What has USAT done during the last 20 years to get students interested and introduced to the sport, except recruiting already outstanding individual sports athletes?
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
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I think the thing is, you didn't just age. You aged and changed the central focus of the sport to an LC viewpoint. As the other gentleman said on the last page, sprints/olympics were out, and IM was in. And so it wasn't just that you guys aged. You grew the sport to where every endurance company wanted a piece of the pie, and thus it became what it is now......a sport only really afforded by the upper middle class and that is mostly made up of people that have established themselves in careers/families, etc., and are able to "afford" this hobby.

And I'm not even blaming or saying that's bad. What I think is interesting is that the 30 and under crowd who dominated the numbers in triathlon in the 1980's are basically now the parents of the kids who we are saying aren't doing the sport now, but need to be in the sport.....go figure.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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No disagreement with you Brooks. Just pointing out that young people did set the tone for tri at one point and have the opportunity to do so again in the future.
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [Mark Lemmon] [ In reply to ]
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I hear ya on that. That’s why I find it most ironic,

The very generation of u-30 athletes who grew the sport up from the 80’s are basically now the parents of a generation of young people who DON’T want to do the sport.


Actually not ironic, kinda scary (scary in that this is my profession) and wondering how will it change?

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
I hear ya on that. That’s why I find it most ironic,

The very generation of u-30 athletes who grew the sport up from the 80’s are basically now the parents of a generation of young people who DON’T want to do the sport.


Actually not ironic, kinda scary (scary in that this is my profession) and wondering how will it change?

I agree (with your latter point) that it's not ironic: lots of things are cyclical, and those that aren't cyclical always change. Older generations have always complained about the next generations being spoiled and ruining everything, as synthetic did, and waterboy does. As alluded to, the price for any level of equipment has exploded far past inflation, and the young cohort is poorer than ever before for a variety of structural reasons. At the same time, working the low-level jobs most do for more or irregular hours makes training harder. I literally had a nightmare last night about being told to do two long runs on a day when I discovered I had a doctor's appointment and lots of work, and I'm 36 and have one of the most flexible jobs of ever.

But come on, running had boom years. Cycling had boom years. Kids like to feel they're different from their parents; look at music and how it's changed over the decades (and before anyone gets snotty, your music, whatever it is, was considered trash by the people who were older when it arrived). Triathlon was in an unsustainable red-hot growth period for a while and is now cooling off. The sport is what, almost half a century old? It'll survive. The competitors will be fewer and faster, with better equipment and skills, with fewer races and tighter fields. At some point, probably in twenty years, there will be another growth period, once there are fewer boomers in it and it feels less like your parents' hobby.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [Toby] [ In reply to ]
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The only counter I’ll say to that...and no I’m not predicting the sport evaporates....at some point in order to trend back up, something has to change.

Price of bikes/races etc has to change or else no your not going to have boom years because there will be no incentive to do it. IE- if the young generation is going through harder “times” (less money to spend) and tri was already “down” when it was in their early adult life, triathlon won’t suddenly come into their radar when they are now 45, and settled into a career.

Because I think these older guys are showing, the people who are 50’s now have essentially grown with the sport. So what they did in their 20’s and was affordable suddenly stayed with them and tri has always been an option for them. That essentially Mark Lemmon’s Generation has been the top generation of participants almost since tri started. Maybe they put their goggles away for a period, but tri was in their DNA. Tri has always been an successsful option for them. And then those who hit 40 and did tri as a “mid life” crisis, great they can because it was so popular, you had choices to race. But if races become fewer and fewer those under 30 year olds in 10 years will have far fewer options to choose from to “trend” back up. So then when they have fewer options, they decline to give it a tri when it’s their “mid life” crisis moment.

But right now, under 30 something’s find tri boring/unrelateable and its now on a decline. That’s not a recipe for success down the road. That’s recipe for a sport for the few and fast only who are into it.


So I’m not predicting doomsday, I’m more suggesting tri is going to become even more exclusive unless something drastic causes it to change. Generation of athletes isn’t going to skip the sport and then suddenly come back to a dying sport and revive it. By then the options will be so limiting, that there won’t be ability for an upward trend.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I am just 5 years out of U30 crew but do associate with them. One thing also to mention is the path to prize money. Open it up to armatures, no pro license needed. Many oly tris such as lifetime did have prize money. I see participation very good in Mexico for races as they even give out cash to age groupers. The Ocr/xfit events are offering money ... That is what will bring competition back
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
The only counter I’ll say to that...and no I’m not predicting the sport evaporates....at some point in order to trend back up, something has to change.

Price of bikes/races etc has to change or else no your not going to have boom years because there will be no incentive to do it. IE- if the young generation is going through harder “times” (less money to spend) and tri was already “down” when it was in their early adult life, triathlon won’t suddenly come into their radar when they are now 45, and settled into a career.

Because I think these older guys are showing, the people who are 50’s now have essentially grown with the sport. So what they did in their 20’s and was affordable suddenly stayed with them and tri has always been an option for them. That essentially Mark Lemmon’s Generation has been the top generation of participants almost since tri started. Maybe they put their goggles away for a period, but tri was in their DNA. Tri has always been an successsful option for them. And then those who hit 40 and did tri as a “mid life” crisis, great they can because it was so popular, you had choices to race. But if races become fewer and fewer those under 30 year olds in 10 years will have far fewer options to choose from to “trend” back up. So then when they have fewer options, they decline to give it a tri when it’s their “mid life” crisis moment.

But right now, under 30 something’s find tri boring/unrelateable and its now on a decline. That’s not a recipe for success down the road. That’s recipe for a sport for the few and fast only who are into it.


So I’m not predicting doomsday, I’m more suggesting tri is going to become even more exclusive unless something drastic causes it to change. Generation of athletes isn’t going to skip the sport and then suddenly come back to a dying sport and revive it. By then the options will be so limiting, that there won’t be ability for an upward trend.

Something will have to change for another boom, I agree. My point is that something probably will - the market will shrink until some players dissolve or radically shift, some new ones appear (maybe a revitalization of the shorter distances, and/ or gravel, or whatever), and new life is given. That's what happens when sports (or any market) booms - there's a catalyst that triggers it; it's not just random spontaneity, even if it appears so at first.

I will say you misunderstood me when you talked about the current Millennials (god I hate this generations crap and naming them) not taking it up when they're 45; you're absolutely right. The boom, likely, would be the next generation down. Not their kids, for the most part, but maybe their nieces and nephews. And they'll think that our version of it, now, looks as goofy as the '70s racers with Scott aerobars and Speedos and all that.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:

Population demographics haven't changed that much. Don't know about Tri, but 30 years ago there were lots of Juniors in cycling. Basically none now. Most racers are in their 40s and 50s.


Coming from a cycling perspective here, I've seen declines across all ages groups over about the last 10 years with all field sizes shrinking about equally. In my local district, at least, there are a lot of guys who were racing 35+ 10 years ago who aren't showing up in 45+ today.

As you yourself point out the changes we're seeing are too broad and happening too quickly to be primarily generational issues.


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I blame it on the fact that far fewer kids ride bikes, or are allowed to do anything unsupervised.


I don't know about that. One of the healthier areas of cycling for the younger generations is fixie crits, and that sure ain't for the risk averse. I'm actually excited this year to get my old track bike into a fixie crit this year. My 44 y.o. GenX ass is going to be sliding smoking-tires-sideways through turns at 35 MPH while taunting the kids with self-aggrandizing "millennial" jokes in the boorish style of h2ofun.

Kids gonna rebel against whatever their parents want since the beginning of time.
Last edited by: trail: Dec 26, 17 11:55
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [Toby] [ In reply to ]
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The u20 crowd is the generation that will likely shift the new sport of tri. People think I’m crazy when I say, but to me the big boom will come when legalized drafting (Mexican racing scene) takes over and it’s simply “go race and whatever you want to do, you do”. It makes it far more simpler (really no need for officials on bike) style and also the u-20 generation is racing that pretty much regularly now.

Of course that’s going to get a “wow wow wow calm down young fella” response from the old generation because it’s such a drastic change.

But tjay I see a reality in 10 years. Much easier on racers in terms of equipment purchases. What I think will be hardest on is the RD who has to figure out road closures and/or quieter routes, etc.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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http://
B_Doughtie wrote:
The u20 crowd is the generation that will likely shift the new sport of tri. People think I’m crazy when I say, but to me the big boom will come when legalized drafting (Mexican racing scene) takes over and it’s simply “go race and whatever you want to do, you do”. It makes it far more simpler (really no need for officials on bike) style and also the u-20 generation is racing that pretty much regularly now.

Of course that’s going to get a “wow wow wow calm down young fella” response from the old generation because it’s such a drastic change.

But tjay I see a reality in 10 years. Much easier on racers in terms of equipment purchases. What I think will be hardest on is the RD who has to figure out road closures and/or quieter routes, etc.

I agree. It would be nice for aquathlons to get a push too, they are low cost. None of the swim run style kind (stupid teammate rules). SD tried club, UCSD puts on aquathlons here and they have very good attendance. Now if someone started a series offering prize money, there will be a good reason for people to put themselves in the pain cave
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
http://
B_Doughtie wrote:
The u20 crowd is the generation that will likely shift the new sport of tri. People think I’m crazy when I say, but to me the big boom will come when legalized drafting (Mexican racing scene) takes over and it’s simply “go race and whatever you want to do, you do”. It makes it far more simpler (really no need for officials on bike) style and also the u-20 generation is racing that pretty much regularly now.

Of course that’s going to get a “wow wow wow calm down young fella” response from the old generation because it’s such a drastic change.

But tjay I see a reality in 10 years. Much easier on racers in terms of equipment purchases. What I think will be hardest on is the RD who has to figure out road closures and/or quieter routes, etc.


I agree. It would be nice for aquathlons to get a push too, they are low cost. None of the swim run style kind (stupid teammate rules). SD tried club, UCSD puts on aquathlons here and they have very good attendance. Now if someone started a series offering prize money, there will be a good reason for people to put themselves in the pain cave

Penny puts on I believe the largest Aquathlons on the west coast. She had USAT nationals last year. Great race. Have done a few and plan to do more next year.

http://www.finishlineproduction.com/...AquathlonEvents.html

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Can you admit now that Gwen Jorgensens Gold Medal did nothing for Triathlon participation?
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [Steve-oH!] [ In reply to ]
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Are we talking immediate or long term?

I've said all along the impact she has and is much more behind the scenes with numbers that you can't put a direct number on, and it hardly fills up USAT quota numbers....youth participation....NCAA numbers.....Before Rio i think they had 7 ncaa schools....since Aug of 2016 they've added 18 schools. That's 1 school a month, but no one on ST talks about that. No one on ST talks about the HS numbers that are growing and the number of HS teams that are popping up.

ETA: The impact that GJ has is not ST friendly, so no one cares about the parts that she's having an impact. They see that she didn't turn the tidal wave around and suggest that it's not helped. But I think that you were foolish if you thought she was going to turn AG racing around. Her impact is more grassroots style versus AG participant numbers based. If that means she hasn't had an "impact" from her gold medal, then fair enough. But youth and JE racing is exploding in the US. We have the best junior program in the world. We are sending more juniors to international competitions then we've ever had, and coming away with podium spots. Yes she's having a very good impact on ITU. Now of course that's not as fun and no one really cares for that on ST, and I get that. But let those 16 years old filter through the system a little bit and just see if they don't stay in the sport and grow it. HS numbers (non-draft) are growing and each of the last few years the youth nationals has sold out. 5 years ago, that wasn't even a thought.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Dec 26, 17 20:32
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
http://
B_Doughtie wrote:
The u20 crowd is the generation that will likely shift the new sport of tri. People think I’m crazy when I say, but to me the big boom will come when legalized drafting (Mexican racing scene) takes over and it’s simply “go race and whatever you want to do, you do”. It makes it far more simpler (really no need for officials on bike) style and also the u-20 generation is racing that pretty much regularly now.

Of course that’s going to get a “wow wow wow calm down young fella” response from the old generation because it’s such a drastic change.

But tjay I see a reality in 10 years. Much easier on racers in terms of equipment purchases. What I think will be hardest on is the RD who has to figure out road closures and/or quieter routes, etc.


I agree. It would be nice for aquathlons to get a push too, they are low cost. None of the swim run style kind (stupid teammate rules). SD tried club, UCSD puts on aquathlons here and they have very good attendance. Now if someone started a series offering prize money, there will be a good reason for people to put themselves in the pain cave

Aquathlons are cool races, even though I can't swim for crap. When I was living in San Diego, I would love doing the TCSD races at LaJolla Cove. Great race and great post-race party.

To tie this into the U20 group, the USAT Aquathlon Nationals in Austin TX this past October were ruled by the U20. The first two female finishers were 15 and 16, respectively. The first male finisher was 19 and there were 5 U20 in the top eight.
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [HandHeartCrown] [ In reply to ]
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HandHeartCrown wrote:
synthetic wrote:
http://
B_Doughtie wrote:
The u20 crowd is the generation that will likely shift the new sport of tri. People think I’m crazy when I say, but to me the big boom will come when legalized drafting (Mexican racing scene) takes over and it’s simply “go race and whatever you want to do, you do”. It makes it far more simpler (really no need for officials on bike) style and also the u-20 generation is racing that pretty much regularly now.

Of course that’s going to get a “wow wow wow calm down young fella” response from the old generation because it’s such a drastic change.

But tjay I see a reality in 10 years. Much easier on racers in terms of equipment purchases. What I think will be hardest on is the RD who has to figure out road closures and/or quieter routes, etc.


I agree. It would be nice for aquathlons to get a push too, they are low cost. None of the swim run style kind (stupid teammate rules). SD tried club, UCSD puts on aquathlons here and they have very good attendance. Now if someone started a series offering prize money, there will be a good reason for people to put themselves in the pain cave


Aquathlons are cool races, even though I can't swim for crap. When I was living in San Diego, I would love doing the TCSD races at LaJolla Cove. Great race and great post-race party.

To tie this into the U20 group, the USAT Aquathlon Nationals in Austin TX this past October were ruled by the U20. The first two female finishers were 15 and 16, respectively. The first male finisher was 19 and there were 5 U20 in the top eight.

My experience has been in Sprint distance Aquathlons, in most cases, who ever can swim the best, usually can out last anyone who can run well.
Now when you make the races Olympic distance, then things become more balanced.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
I think the thing is, you didn't just age. You aged and changed the central focus of the sport to an LC viewpoint. As the other gentleman said on the last page, sprints/olympics were out, and IM was in. And so it wasn't just that you guys aged. You grew the sport to where every endurance company wanted a piece of the pie, and thus it became what it is now......a sport only really afforded by the upper middle class and that is mostly made up of people that have established themselves in careers/families, etc., and are able to "afford" this hobby.

And I'm not even blaming or saying that's bad. What I think is interesting is that the 30 and under crowd who dominated the numbers in triathlon in the 1980's are basically now the parents of the kids who we are saying aren't doing the sport now, but need to be in the sport.....go figure.


I agree. Tri was the perfect sport for those of us who loved to train to grow up with in the '80s. I'm sure there are young people today who need an athletic challenge the same way we did. If they have found something other than tri I'm totally cool with that. If I was in my 20s now I may have ended up focusing on trail ultras instead of tris. If the % of young people who need an athletic challenge the same way we did has dropped, that is sad and I hope our generation didn't contribute to that.
Last edited by: Mark Lemmon: Dec 27, 17 9:57
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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The very generation of u-30 athletes who grew the sport up from the 80’s are basically now the parents of a generation of young people who DON’T want to do the sport.

Brooks,

There is definitively a pattern there. I do see that.


The question is, how can we change that? How can we turn triathlon around and present it as a sport that the younger generation WILL find attractive?






Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [rhys] [ In reply to ]
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John, it helps you put on world class level races!


Rhys,

Full disclosure as you, know, Multisport Canada and John Salt are clients of mine and you are right, they do put on world class events. Why? They look after those small details that REALLY do matter these days in the endurance sports race business. It's startling to me that many in the race business think they are still putting on a race, and that's all they need to do. They seem to NOT realize that their participatory customers are a VERY sophisticated bunch and they expect more when they spend their money.

Some things are going to cost a business/race more money to up the experience quotient - others will cost you nothing - the latter need to be well thought out for good impact. They will be different for every race. One thing I know that Multisport Canada does is just past the finish line, John Salt (Founder & President) is standing there personally greeting EVERY finisher who comes across the finish line with a hand shake and a personal, "Thank you for racing with us today". I'm sure that many don't even know who John is - it does not matter - there has been that one-on-one reach out and connection with each racer. And for the ones that do know, John, that is a DIRECT connection to the race/event!

Obviously you could NOT do this with a 2,000 person 5K race - that race/event would have to come up with a whole bunch of other things to make it unique, to make the day-of experience memorable.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I've said all along the impact she has and is much more behind the scenes with numbers that you can't put a direct number on, and it hardly fills up USAT quota numbers....youth participation....NCAA numbers.....Before Rio i think they had 7 ncaa schools....since Aug of 2016 they've added 18 schools. That's 1 school a month, but no one on ST talks about that. No one on ST talks about the HS numbers that are growing and the number of HS teams that are popping up.


Brooks,

This is great news, and yes, it does not get the exposure that it does. Reason - here, and elsewhere in the triathlon media its all Ironman all the time!!

As for Gwen - I think there was some hope that her Gold medal win would help boost interest and numbers of youth/junior athletes. That is a typical Olympic pattern - an indirect connection between success (Gold Medal) in a sport and participation numbers in that same sport. I know that we see that in Canada - but we don't win a lot of Gold Medals - so those Gold Medalists really get the full VIP treatment in the media. The U.S. by contrast, wins a lot of Gold Medals - so that dynamic may be more muted in the U.S.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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FWIW a few people I either work with or casually know have openly complained about price of events.

If you're kind of thinking about it, it can be a deciding factor. If the market moves just enough, a lot of those "maybe" participants turns to decided "no's".
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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Price and fees as well. There's only so many times you will let Active.com screw you over. Races are expensive and registration fees often make signing up a rather negative experience because you didn't expect there would be a fee or how high the fee would be.
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
The question is, how can we change that? How can we turn triathlon around and present it as a sport that the younger generation WILL find attractive?

I don't know. But I know that triathlon has lost whatever cool factor it used to have. I remember back in the 80's-90's, it was something a little counter-culture. Triathletes were giving the middle finger to organized mainstream sports. Just a little subversive. Even sponsored by Bud Light or whatever.

That's gone. The current top triathletes have no whiff of being "different." Great people, and great athletes. But not any more counter-culture than golfers. Back when TRS was funny he nailed a parody of modern triathletes being super boring.

Not helped that one of the biggest players in race production has become a high-end resort vacation company that happens to hold a catered get-outdoors day for an extra $1000.
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Re: What was Triathlon participation this year....another down year? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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The hard part in all of it is that is that it's going to take some balls by race companies to push for a change. Currently IM is the end all be all. Everything in our sport is geared towards IM. Even beginners are doing the sprints and then running to coaches "ok coach i've done the 2 sprints this year, can i move up to an IM in the next year or 2". So what that is going to mean is that race companies are going to have to see "big picture" and push for something that will go against what is currently feeding them. And that's a really really hard sell. To tell someone to make a radical change and potentially upset the 50 year old dudes that are filling what's left of races now.....some people would rather dig their feet in cement and ride out this dying wave, then go completely opposite AND IT MAY NOT WORK.

I know my idea is going to come off as hooky and "oh you always beat that drum", but I think the sport needs to relax on the rules. Relax on the sport having to spend $3000 on a "basic" tri bike. Cut out all the BS of finding aero gains here/aero gains there and simply let racers race. You want to draft, go draft. You don't want to draft, then you don't draft. Cuts out the arms race for equipment (people will still be buying road bikes), and get back to basics. Of course this is very very different especially for Americans. We clutch to this idea of "individuality" like it's their last dying breath, yet that same guy wouldn't care if he was caught on a ST IM draftfest photo "oh man you can't tell if im drafting, that's a bad camera angle....that's only 1s of time.....but i couldnt do anything about.....I was only doing what everyone else was doing....."

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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