I think that most in this thread forget that most mop and bop don't give a shit about any of this. They participate just to finish for themselves and just enjoy the sport. Now the fop and ST people on here participating are the ones that do pay attention to these facts and I would suggest are not as bad as most say here. These are the people getting fit by professionals and obsessing over the small details.
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Re: What slowtwitcher has the best long course bike position [jkhayc]
[ In reply to ]
Re: What slowtwitcher has the best long course bike position [jkhayc]
[ In reply to ]
You said 25w. Even then, it would be helmet dependent as some I've tested are near parity with and without a shrug.
You see 8w at 25mph, I see half that at 30mph.
I agree that position is key, but for many it's much easier to pick up the same savings with tyre or bar choice.
So you're happy with your position, great. Now grab the easy watts left on the table with new wheels and tyres. ;)
You see 8w at 25mph, I see half that at 30mph.
I agree that position is key, but for many it's much easier to pick up the same savings with tyre or bar choice.
So you're happy with your position, great. Now grab the easy watts left on the table with new wheels and tyres. ;)
Re: What slowtwitcher has the best long course bike position [Fishbum]
[ In reply to ]
Fishbum wrote:
Which one of us has the best bike position for either 70.3 or 140.6. narrowing it down to those two should help eliminate the TT guys.And below is a better side shot. I am sure it can be improved upon, but waiting to get in the tunnel or on the track to really tweak stuff, for now it goes pretty fast, and as the saying goes "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM
Re: What slowtwitcher has the best long course bike position [@BW_Tri]
[ In reply to ]
Thank you for getting back on topic. What is the rest of your fit information stack reach stem length Etc
Re: What slowtwitcher has the best long course bike position [kileyay]
[ In reply to ]
kileyay wrote:
Grill wrote:
kileyay wrote:
jkhayc wrote:
head position is probably the thing most left on the table by most athletes. with everything else being the same, i wouldn't be surprised if the delta from a bad head position to a really good one is ~15w.x1000
This really can't be overstated. When I'm riding 25+ miles per hour, I swear I can feel the drag go down from head popped up to head turtled and tucked. I have been meaning to Chung test this, but I'll bet it's more like 25 watts
More like <5w depending on helmet.
That may be true for you. But I would make a serious bet that my head popped up in the air vs. my best turtle is a much more meaningful difference.
In the tunnel, head full up to full turtle was 10w at 40kph/25mph for me.
Re: What slowtwitcher has the best long course bike position [Fishbum]
[ In reply to ]
Stack- 130mm
Reach (tip of ISM to rear of pads)- 510mm
Reach to tip of Extensions from tip of saddle- 865mm
Seat Height- 786mm (8cm behind nose to crank center)
Set Back- +14mm
Stem- Aduro bar, not sure what it is......
Anything else?
-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM
Reach (tip of ISM to rear of pads)- 510mm
Reach to tip of Extensions from tip of saddle- 865mm
Seat Height- 786mm (8cm behind nose to crank center)
Set Back- +14mm
Stem- Aduro bar, not sure what it is......
Anything else?
-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM
Re: What slowtwitcher has the best long course bike position [BMANX]
[ In reply to ]
That test was from 2013. What were fastest tires and wheels back then?
Also, please stop putting words in my mouth. 15w is a reasonable number, and that is what I suggested was on the table. You're welcome to go back and find where you first failed at reading comprehension.
Also, please stop putting words in my mouth. 15w is a reasonable number, and that is what I suggested was on the table. You're welcome to go back and find where you first failed at reading comprehension.
Re: What slowtwitcher has the best long course bike position [@BW_Tri]
[ In reply to ]
@BW_Tri wrote:
Stack- 130mm Reach (tip of ISM to rear of pads)- 510mm
Reach to tip of Extensions from tip of saddle- 865mm
Seat Height- 786mm (8cm behind nose to crank center)
Set Back- +14mm
Stem- Aduro bar, not sure what it is......
Anything else?
Your height and bike size
Re: What slowtwitcher has the best long course bike position [Fishbum]
[ In reply to ]
Fishbum wrote:
@BW_Tri wrote:
Stack- 130mm Reach (tip of ISM to rear of pads)- 510mm
Reach to tip of Extensions from tip of saddle- 865mm
Seat Height- 786mm (8cm behind nose to crank center)
Set Back- +14mm
Stem- Aduro bar, not sure what it is......
Anything else?
Your height and bike size
6'1" and 56. Could possibly go to a 58 and use the "lower" P5 bar rather than the V bar on the 56, but I like how I have it setup and I like having the drop from the pads to the base bar as well.
-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM
Re: What slowtwitcher has the best long course bike position [jkhayc]
[ In reply to ]
Wasn't those. ;)
You, Kiley, 15w, 25w, whatevs. Trying to get someone to try and hold a shrug for a long course in a penny-farthingesque position is a fool's errand.
You, Kiley, 15w, 25w, whatevs. Trying to get someone to try and hold a shrug for a long course in a penny-farthingesque position is a fool's errand.
Re: What slowtwitcher has the best long course bike position [jkhayc]
[ In reply to ]
Fix my head position. I might try and go a little lower on the front for my next full, but not sure. I rode 4:50 off of 196 watts at santa rosa and still ran pretty close to what I think my potential on the day was (3:06ish) so I'm not sure how much there is to improve on. The only thing I'm sure I'm changing is that kit and trying to stay in aero more consistently
Re: What slowtwitcher has the best long course bike position [peace242000]
[ In reply to ]
For those with super low head positions; I am getting better. I definitely have the turtle thing going on
But I find when I get really low and only look 10 ft in front of the tyre it feels a bit disorienting after a while
Its certainly not a natural position for me to be that low
But I find when I get really low and only look 10 ft in front of the tyre it feels a bit disorienting after a while
Its certainly not a natural position for me to be that low
Re: What slowtwitcher has the best long course bike position [jkhayc]
[ In reply to ]
jkhayc wrote:
but you and Grill are both ignoring the fact that MOST long course triathletes have - quite simply - abysmal head positions.A significant (maybe even majority?) chunk of my tunnel experience is with long course triathletes (ag'ers and pros) who had a cxa near, or over, 0.30 at beta=0. Their head positions were typical of what one would expect at that cxa.
My observation is that finding a position that enables a relaxed low head position with adequate vision is where it's at. If i can see your chin, you're leaving something aerodynamically on the table. I'd agree with others: head position=free speed.
=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================
Re: What slowtwitcher has the best long course bike position [devashish_paul]
[ In reply to ]
devashish_paul wrote:
Fleck and Stadler have proven those positions over 112 miles in Kona as has Mike Plumb (1989). I would say out of this thread, Fleck has the best one that was proven to be held over the course in Kona and he backed it up with a low 3 hour bike split. That's pretty well the gold standard on this thread that none of these guys have gotten to. If we get a position picture from Rob Gray from an Ultraman or Kona or Texas it will exceed Fleck's. These guys have proven to hold things in place for the duration and executed good runs after that too. Fleck has announced many races and watches people wheel their bikes into transition with theoretically great positions and then been out there at mile 80 on the course announcing/watching with the majority of the FOP racers sitting bolt upright in beach cruiser mode.
See if you can find a pic of Steve Johnson, Darkhorse Tri here on ST. The 2014 IMAZ pics are what I wish my bike position could be. His bike set up is exceptional, his bike splits rival the top amateurs, and he routinely lays down a 3:0X run to finish up his races. He must be doing something right. I hope he doesn't mind me nominating him for best long course bike position.
----------------------------
Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.
Re: What slowtwitcher has the best long course bike position [stevej]
[ In reply to ]
i got that comment a couple times. it's interesting, because the picture definitely agrees with your sentiment, but it's never been something i've felt, or had cause to believe during my days playing triathlon.
after further re-thinking of an event that happened 3+ years ago, i am reminded of the fact that the a2 guys calibrate the WT on every run - thus - this is a static photo, as confirmed by the logos on the wheels, lacking photo blur. so, this is me purposefully putting my left foot down as vertical at 6:00 as possible (and likely focusing on keeping my heel down), but not indicative of my pedal stroke, which factors in a toe-down pedal similar to most folks.
but yes, you're right, based on the picture.
----
@adamwfurlong
after further re-thinking of an event that happened 3+ years ago, i am reminded of the fact that the a2 guys calibrate the WT on every run - thus - this is a static photo, as confirmed by the logos on the wheels, lacking photo blur. so, this is me purposefully putting my left foot down as vertical at 6:00 as possible (and likely focusing on keeping my heel down), but not indicative of my pedal stroke, which factors in a toe-down pedal similar to most folks.
but yes, you're right, based on the picture.
----
@adamwfurlong
Re: What slowtwitcher has the best long course bike position [Fishbum]
[ In reply to ]
How many of these guys could hold that position for 55 or 110 miles
The picture of me is the position I rode in probably 80% - 90% of the time in triathlon races - even 112 miles of an IRONMAN bike leg. The time not in the aero position was steeper climbing, in and out of turns and more aggressive accelerating.
On the IRONMAN Hawaii course - you ride probably 90% or more in the aero position. The only time you really need to get out of the saddle is the climb up Palani, a couple of spots on the long climb up to Hawi, and then the climb back up to the Queen K from Kawihae. Even on these last two, it more just to change position and pull in some different muscle groups, and change the muscle loading a bit.
It was a comfortable position for me. It was optimized, by a bit of trial and error, and performance. We had no power-meters, and no access to wind tunnels!
Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
The picture of me is the position I rode in probably 80% - 90% of the time in triathlon races - even 112 miles of an IRONMAN bike leg. The time not in the aero position was steeper climbing, in and out of turns and more aggressive accelerating.
On the IRONMAN Hawaii course - you ride probably 90% or more in the aero position. The only time you really need to get out of the saddle is the climb up Palani, a couple of spots on the long climb up to Hawi, and then the climb back up to the Queen K from Kawihae. Even on these last two, it more just to change position and pull in some different muscle groups, and change the muscle loading a bit.
It was a comfortable position for me. It was optimized, by a bit of trial and error, and performance. We had no power-meters, and no access to wind tunnels!
Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Re: What slowtwitcher has the best long course bike position [Mike Plumb]
[ In reply to ]
Funny, in 1989 I hadn't even heard of "Kona" or the Hawaii Ironman--not for another 4 or 5 years until I heard of it. I had a buddy who was talking about this crazy race in Hawaii where they these stupid-arse long distances. Couldn't believe people had done stuff like that..little did I know I'd be on the starting line 2 years later doing that same stupid arse stuff he was talking about & he was my room mate for the race--where he met his wife while partying the week before the race.
Re: What slowtwitcher has the best long course bike position [wannabefaster]
[ In reply to ]
wannabefaster wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Fleck and Stadler have proven those positions over 112 miles in Kona as has Mike Plumb (1989). I would say out of this thread, Fleck has the best one that was proven to be held over the course in Kona and he backed it up with a low 3 hour bike split. That's pretty well the gold standard on this thread that none of these guys have gotten to. If we get a position picture from Rob Gray from an Ultraman or Kona or Texas it will exceed Fleck's. These guys have proven to hold things in place for the duration and executed good runs after that too. Fleck has announced many races and watches people wheel their bikes into transition with theoretically great positions and then been out there at mile 80 on the course announcing/watching with the majority of the FOP racers sitting bolt upright in beach cruiser mode.
See if you can find a pic of Steve Johnson, Darkhorse Tri here on ST. The 2014 IMAZ pics are what I wish my bike position could be. His bike set up is exceptional, his bike splits rival the top amateurs, and he routinely lays down a 3:0X run to finish up his races. He must be doing something right. I hope he doesn't mind me nominating him for best long course bike position.
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ce%20report#p6162799
The pics are missing but the thread supports my hypothesis ;-)
----------------------------
Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.
Re: What slowtwitcher has the best long course bike position [jkhayc]
[ In reply to ]
jkhayc wrote:
15w is conservative. 25w is generous.I'd like to pause for a moment to comment that watts is a meaningless metric for aero drag unless we have the speed. Is it 20mph, 25mph, 30mph? Or something else?
Why can't we just use CdA instead?
Re: What slowtwitcher has the best long course bike position [Sean H]
[ In reply to ]
So I have a super random question. You have a treadmill with russian labels on it?
Re: What slowtwitcher has the best long course bike position [mkserge]
[ In reply to ]
No, but the Radisson Blu at Moscow Sheremetyevo Airport does tho.
Re: What slowtwitcher has the best long course bike position [Sean H]
[ In reply to ]
Ok, that explains it :-)
Re: What slowtwitcher has the best long course bike position [mkserge]
[ In reply to ]
lol
Re: What slowtwitcher has the best long course bike position [Fishbum]
[ In reply to ]
Gonna try to get my ass to a velodrome before next season, I did some changes (less drop, narrower, tilted bars) that seamed to make me faster at home but slower race times this year has disappointed me.
Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede
Endurance coach | Physiotherapist (primary care) | Bikefitter | Swede
Re: What slowtwitcher has the best long course bike position [Fishbum]
[ In reply to ]
Fishbum wrote:
Which one of us has the best bike position for either 70.3 or 140.6. narrowing it down to those two should help eliminate the TT guys.A little late to the party. Not the best or fastest but its comfortable.
