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What is deemed "outside" assistance in a race?
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I'll start by saying this is a loaded question...but i watched the Coeur d'Alene 70.3 run on the weekend and witnessed no less than a dozen or so people handing out hats, sunscreen, gels and salt tablets to competitors. I said to the first person that handed over a hat and a gel to runner that its not allowed and was told "but its hot and she needs a hat". Maybe because i pulled out of the race due to illness i was already mad as hell but it really grated me to see this happening throughout the run. I will note that it was all with AG'ers with Men, Woman and over all age's.

If i am wrong and this is allowed then i will eat humble pie and delete this post but my understanding when i'm competing is not to take anything unless its from an aid station. Am i wrong? Perhaps another example of no marshals on course to police this.

Fan Boy moment -This was the first 70.3 i have spectated and it was great! I had myself at the 1/7 mile spot on the run and was sitting 2 feet away from the runners. The top 3 men were a class above and woman run leg was great to watch too. All seemed to appreciate the support.
Last edited by: sjc166: Jun 25, 18 19:30
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Re: What is deemed "outside" assistance in a race? [sjc166] [ In reply to ]
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I asked this question to an official a few months ago, and he told me that the spirit of the rule is intended to disallow assistance that singles out a particular individual. So, if your spouse handed you, and only you, a hat, then it would be a violation. If they handed everyone (that wanted one) a hat, it's not.

That's why you sometimes see spectators that have set up their own stands and offering water, etc. They make it available to everyone.

This is just hearsay from an official but it makes sense based on my experience.

Strava
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Re: What is deemed "outside" assistance in a race? [sjc166] [ In reply to ]
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Yes it's outside assistance but as long as they're not getting in the way and holding up other racers I have to say it really doesn't bother me. I put it more in the category of saving MOP and BOPers from having a potential DNF rather than people actively trying to gain an advantage, would much rather race marshals focused on drafting and on more cynical outside assistance like pacing.
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Re: What is deemed "outside" assistance in a race? [sjc166] [ In reply to ]
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Nobody seems to worry about the pro's being given time splits to other competitors, but to me that seems like a HUGE assistance that actually would have an affect on the outcome of the race. I think incidental stuff like hats and sunscreen are fine. I bet they had no impact on the podium result for any age group.
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Re: What is deemed "outside" assistance in a race? [trialex] [ In reply to ]
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Ha, good question!
Thought about it at a half yesterday too, what is actually outside assistance.
ANd i agree with above posters that as long as it is for everyone it is fine. But i have also wondered about people yelling out splits, is that okay?

Also my race was local and people living along the running route were spraying us with cold water (which was awesome!), but some kids also offered water, had i drank that, i guess that would be outside assistance too?
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Post deleted by windschatten [ In reply to ]
Last edited by: windschatten: Jun 25, 18 23:52
Re: What is deemed "outside" assistance in a race? [sjc166] [ In reply to ]
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I think this is a clear violation of rules, and they can be happy no race marshal saw it. But at the end of the day, does it really matter and is it worth being mad about it? If a woman who will place around 1500th in the event has for some stupid reason forgotten her hat, and she will reach the finish line more healthy and safely, whats there to bother? I did the same on my first long distance race, I forgot the hat because I was too inexperienced with hot events, and then I stole the hat from my girlfriend who was cheering at the street (was I actually breaking the rules, I cant find any passage saying you cant steal during the race? =)) I don't think I did wrong to anyone out on the course, my 11:51 finish was nowhere near interesting enough.

I think we have to consider what the rule is for (but this is just my personal opinion):
1) it would be chaos on the racetrack if everyone could receive aid from anyone on the road. Especially on the bike. If every couple of minutes somebody would break and move over to the right to receive aid anywhere on the course, accidents would be guaranteed. When you come up to an official aid station you know what will happen and everybody is careful
2) it shouldn't give a competitive edge to people competing. Give number two specialized nutrition on the course so he can win the race is different than giving number 1500 a hat because its better for her health.

Rules are rules and we should all follow them, if its drafting or assistance from outside. But no need to get mad at somebody in the middle pack for getting a hat or sunscreen.
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Re: What is deemed "outside" assistance in a race? [sjc166] [ In reply to ]
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sjc166 wrote:
I'll start by saying this is a loaded question...but i watched the Coeur d'Alene 70.3 run on the weekend and witnessed no less than a dozen or so people handing out hats, sunscreen, gels and salt tablets to competitors. I said to the first person that handed over a hat and a gel to runner that its not allowed and was told "but its hot and she needs a hat". Maybe because i pulled out of the race due to illness i was already mad as hell but it really grated me to see this happening throughout the run. I will note that it was all with AG'ers with Men, Woman and over all age's.

If i am wrong and this is allowed then i will eat humble pie and delete this post but my understanding when i'm competing is not to take anything unless its from an aid station. Am i wrong? Perhaps another example of no marshals on course to police this.

Fan Boy moment -This was the first 70.3 i have spectated and it was great! I had myself at the 1/7 mile spot on the run and was sitting 2 feet away from the runners. The top 3 men were a class above and woman run leg was great to watch too. All seemed to appreciate the support.

Hello mad at hell person. You need to chill.

It's all about the spirit vs the letter of the law. General stuff being handed out to general competitors is fine, don't sweat it. Sure if two AGs are racing for 1st place and one says to their coach 'shit I'm out of gels, get me a gel' and the coach goes and gets them their gel then that's cheating.
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Re: What is deemed "outside" assistance in a race? [sjc166] [ In reply to ]
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This is outside assistance and it's not allowed. Is it a big issue maybe not, but it is what it is. It's an advantage compared to having to carry your stuff for the whole race. I has to provide some kind of benefit to the athlete, or else why would they be doing it?

A few years ago Marcel Zamora was disqualified from the Embrunman (which he has won multiple times) for handing a jersey to a spectator (I believe it was his mom, not sure now, but it was a relative) after the descent from the Izoard, and refusing to go get it back when (rightfully) asked by a marshal. Some people were outraged by the decision, but why would he be allowed to discard a jersey while the others either have to endure the cold during the descent, or carry the jersey for the rest of the ride?
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Re: What is deemed "outside" assistance in a race? [nchristi] [ In reply to ]
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It's not pacing if there's a gorilla next to every runner

There was a safety concern with the heat so it's kind of an extra aid station, plus offering to all means no advantage gained
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Re: What is deemed "outside" assistance in a race? [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
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I'd say it sucks. Salt tablets? That's crossing the line.

My race site: https://racesandplaces.wixsite.com/racesandplaces
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Re: What is deemed "outside" assistance in a race? [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
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lacticturkey wrote:
It's not pacing if there's a gorilla next to every runner

There was a safety concern with the heat so it's kind of an extra aid station, plus offering to all means no advantage gained
That's not what we're talking about here.
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Re: What is deemed "outside" assistance in a race? [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
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windschatten wrote:
lassekk wrote:
Ha, good question!
Thought about it at a half yesterday too, what is actually outside assistance.
ANd i agree with above posters that as long as it is for everyone it is fine. But i have also wondered about people yelling out splits, is that okay?

Also my race was local and people living along the running route were spraying us with cold water (which was awesome!), but some kids also offered water, had i drank that, i guess that would be outside assistance too?


There is a difference in providing physical assistance (technology, clothing, nutrition, transportation, draft) and the non-physical assistance (yelling encouragement and gasp....splits).

Sorry you fail to see that difference.

And regarding taking open beverages from non-race support...are you willing to take that tummy bet?

.

I don't care about splits but wondered about having a spouse say "you're 30 seconds behind the guy in first" as that is assistance that can impact your race.
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Re: What is deemed "outside" assistance in a race? [mickison] [ In reply to ]
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I know it's apples to oranges, but why would pacing to competitors info not be allowed in tri in the rules? It's pretty common in lots of other sports.

They totally do that in pro bike racing, amateur bike racing, indoor track racing they even have schedules and pacing vs the competitor.

This was a big thing with when Lemond took on Fignon in the TT final. One accepted the splits and gaps, the other didn't want to know.
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Re: What is deemed "outside" assistance in a race? [mickison] [ In reply to ]
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mickison wrote:
I don't care about splits but wondered about having a spouse say "you're 30 seconds behind the guy in first" as that is assistance that can impact your race.

I think we all understand your argument, but I don't think everyone would agree with the premise. It would be incredibly difficult to enforce and even then is wide open to interpretation. Imagine my 68 year old mother, who knows nothing about the sport and comes to watch me (and gets very excited about these sorts of things), sees a guy 30 seconds ahead of me with a "35" on his calf and she yells to me that I am right behind him. Are the officials going to give me a 5 minute penalty for that and feel justified in doing so?

It's not currently part of the rule book as well (not that the rules are a proxy for morality - I would normally argue against that) so I think you would be fighting an uphill battle here. It would most likely stifle the crowd's enthusiasm and lead to a decline in participation.

I have had coaches/friends yell splits/place at me and I have benefited from it in the past (i.e. modified my pace accordingly). Even if my competitors had that advantage at a race I didn't, I still wouldn't suggest a rule change.

Strava
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Re: What is deemed "outside" assistance in a race? [sch340] [ In reply to ]
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sch340 wrote:
mickison wrote:

I don't care about splits but wondered about having a spouse say "you're 30 seconds behind the guy in first" as that is assistance that can impact your race.


I think we all understand your argument, but I don't think everyone would agree with the premise. It would be incredibly difficult to enforce and even then is wide open to interpretation. Imagine my 68 year old mother, who knows nothing about the sport and comes to watch me (and gets very excited about these sorts of things), sees a guy 30 seconds ahead of me with a "35" on his calf and she yells to me that I am right behind him. Are the officials going to give me a 5 minute penalty for that and feel justified in doing so?

It's not currently part of the rule book as well (not that the rules are a proxy for morality - I would normally argue against that) so I think you would be fighting an uphill battle here. It would most likely stifle the crowd's enthusiasm and lead to a decline in participation.

I have had coaches/friends yell splits/place at me and I have benefited from it in the past (i.e. modified my pace accordingly). Even if my competitors had that advantage at a race I didn't, I still wouldn't suggest a rule change.

I agree. Enforcing it would be next to impossible. I think many spectators certainly don't know the rules either. If they're yelling splits/place they probably do. My watch died in IM Chattanooga last year. Being a two lap run I told my friend's my watch was dead. 2nd lap they were offering me their run watch but I told them I couldn't. But obviously if they were yelling out splits/place I couldn't do anything about that.
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Re: What is deemed "outside" assistance in a race? [sjc166] [ In reply to ]
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I have a pet peeve about pacers during the Ironman run. I don't think it is fair to us that are in a really dark place around mile 14-23 to see other persons getting a "lift" from their friend or loved one running along side them, for however long, and encouraging them to push on and finish. This is suppose to be an individual effort. Battling and conquering your negative thoughts by yourself is what you signed up for, right?.
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Re: What is deemed "outside" assistance in a race? [TJ56] [ In reply to ]
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I assume outside means provided outside of the organisation and not available to all

Pros get wheels, there are people that help you get your suit off, you can throw someone a pump or squeezey, people to guide swimmers with boats, people that pass you water, people that hand out glow sticks, people that rack your bike... It's not perfectly unassisted... The key is an unimpeded day without advantages

making sure everyone is hydrated, salted and safe in the sun is just responsible
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Re: What is deemed "outside" assistance in a race? [sjc166] [ In reply to ]
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So this happened to me at 70.3 Worlds last year.

https://www.slowtwitch.com/...hattanooga_6562.html

If I had received a tube or a mountain bike from the volunteer and spectators I certainly would have been in violation of the rule. As it was, race support was finally able to get me going again and within the rules.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
Last edited by: Bryancd: Jun 26, 18 8:07
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Re: What is deemed "outside" assistance in a race? [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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Hello mad at hell person. You need to chill.

It's all about the spirit vs the letter of the law. General stuff being handed out to general competitors is fine, don't sweat it. Sure if two AGs are racing for 1st place and one says to their coach 'shit I'm out of gels, get me a gel' and the coach goes and gets them their gel then that's cheating.[/quote]
Believe me, I’m chilled. It was just an observation of the race which had me thinking. I’ve also been sprayed be people with their garden hose which was great.....that too could be deemed as help, I guess.
Also I’m not buying into the spirit vs letter of the law. It’s either outside assistance or not....especially gels and salt tablets.

Anyway good debate, carry on
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Re: What is deemed "outside" assistance in a race? [trialex] [ In reply to ]
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trialex wrote:
Nobody seems to worry about the pro's being given time splits to other competitors, but to me that seems like a HUGE assistance that actually would have an affect on the outcome of the race. I think incidental stuff like hats and sunscreen are fine. I bet they had no impact on the podium result for any age group.
You're complaining about time splits? Perhaps you would prefer they all compete naked, oiled, and in silence like the good old days in Greece?
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Re: What is deemed "outside" assistance in a race? [sjc166] [ In reply to ]
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I'm relatively new to the triathlon world, and have done a few and am in the bottom 10% of finishers. However I'm a race director for an ultramarathon, and a slow distance runner as well so I'm coming at this from other viewpoints:

In the case of "outside assistance" - I'm a little more laid back. Someone who sets up their own rogue aid station and gives out snacks to everyone is ok. I'm not going to be that jerk who tells a group of people who dropped a good amount of money and time to give snacks to athletes. There's nothing that will poison the well faster with community relations than yelling at locals who are helping everyone. When the outside assistance is more targeted (tri club, a race spouse, etc.) then it gets a little odd. Yelling something, like splits, don't seem to be a big deal. Knowing that I'm 30 seconds behind the person in front of me. But if it's a physical object (bottles, spare tubes, clothing) then that's where I draw the line because it's for a specific person or group. Conversely, supporting kisses from spouses kisses are totally ok when it's just you and just odd when they're for everyone.

As for pacers... I'm not a fan of them because it should be just you running and battling yourself, but if it's done on a public path, I can't stop it and thus, don't care. And when I don't care about what happens to others because I can't control it, I run a more effective race plan.
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Re: What is deemed "outside" assistance in a race? [handsomeloser] [ In reply to ]
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handsomeloser wrote:
...Someone who sets up their own rogue aid station and gives out snacks to everyone is ok. I'm not going to be that jerk who tells a group of people who dropped a good amount of money and time to give snacks to athletes.

I'm with this. What about a race like Eagleman? It's usually other-worldly hot and there's a huge amount of support from the people who live along the course. In addition to vocal cheering, at least a few have sprinklers to run through and, the more enthusiastic have garden hoses and will spray down anyone who asks.

Is this outside assistance? Within the letter of the law it is. But 1) because it's available to everyone and 2) it's pretty cool that the town gets so involved, I'm good with it.
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Re: What is deemed "outside" assistance in a race? [sjc166] [ In reply to ]
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Been following this thread and am surprised nobody has referenced this yet:
https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/denver-area-triathlete-qualifies-for-ironman-championships-then-dqed-because-of-chapstick


2016 IM Chatt - the hot one - when a finished KQ'd but was then DQ'd bc his wife had given him Chapstick on the run.


I will agree with the person who said it irritates them to see people receiv aid in the form of "extreme moral support" on the toughest part - the middle - of an IM run. It's is technically illegal to have someone ride beside you on bike or otherwise pace you on IM run and somehow I feel like I see this in IM and 70.3 too often. Aside from being against the rules, it's also against the spirit of the event. The only reason I ever want to take on IM is to see how hard I (emphasis on "I") can push myself and push through the physical and mental duress. If you think you can't do it without moral support and ask people to give that to help you reach your goal, you're kind of robbing yourself of a big part of the experience and cheating yourself on what you could get out of it. Plus, it sucks to be that spectator with the pressure of saying just the right thing at mile 15 [or from 15 - 18] or whatever.
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Re: What is deemed "outside" assistance in a race? [milkmaid1982] [ In reply to ]
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milkmaid1982 wrote:
Been following this thread and am surprised nobody has referenced this yet:
https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/denver-area-triathlete-qualifies-for-ironman-championships-then-dqed-because-of-chapstick


2016 IM Chatt - the hot one - when a finished KQ'd but was then DQ'd bc his wife had given him Chapstick on the run.


I will agree with the person who said it irritates them to see people receiv aid in the form of "extreme moral support" on the toughest part - the middle - of an IM run. It's is technically illegal to have someone ride beside you on bike or otherwise pace you on IM run and somehow I feel like I see this in IM and 70.3 too often. Aside from being against the rules, it's also against the spirit of the event. The only reason I ever want to take on IM is to see how hard I (emphasis on "I") can push myself and push through the physical and mental duress. If you think you can't do it without moral support and ask people to give that to help you reach your goal, you're kind of robbing yourself of a big part of the experience and cheating yourself on what you could get out of it. Plus, it sucks to be that spectator with the pressure of saying just the right thing at mile 15 [or from 15 - 18] or whatever.

The chapstick one was because the athlete continued to receive assistance even after being penalized and told why he was penalized.
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