ps I have no idea how to post the actual pic in my message, sorry.

This thread is becoming worrisome for me. I have wondered for years how erg rowing has not become a major cross training tool for triathlon. I cannot think of a more grueling aerobic/ anaerobic training device than a concept 2 ergometer.
Rowers are beasts who consistently train to complete anaerobic failure.
Princeton rowers who also rowed at Oxford ? are some of the best.
Marty is one of these guys.
I was very sad a few years back when I was having a decent NJ State Tri and saw Marty kicking ass. He was/ is in my age group and my chances of a podium are reduced when he races. Listen to his advice.

I like the duration of the 1000m and 2000m on the erg. Roughly speaking these are in the range of my 200 IM and 400IM which I am trying to improve in swimming this year. Those also have that same aerobic duration with some anaerobic component. I think for now, I just need to figure out how to do this activity properly.

I found myself looking at the classified locally to see if there is one I can pick up for cheap, but I think using the units at the gym will suffice as I have city of Ottawa gyms that i can use for free with my pool pass one being 3 min drive from my company office, the other being 7 min from home and I am trying to spend zero $$$ for now while I invest in my tech startup.

Dev

The inside track to a concept 2 erg is through your local high school . If you are close to a high school or college that is looking for a new one, they will gladly unload an old one to a friend of the program. In my case that is an alumni of St. Joseph’s Prep. Go Hawklets

Also, keep an eye on Craigslist and even Facebook Marketplace. I managed to snag a Model C recently for $100 from FB, mostly due to lucky timing and being able to get to the seller with cash within a couple of hours of him posting it. Not sure if he knew how far under market he was asking, although he did say he'd been bombarded with messages including higher offers.
I'm planning on replacing the PM2 it came with with a PM5 but even at Concept 2's MSRP, figure I still come out ahead. Will probably replace the chain and upgrade the handle too.

It's a footplate.


What kind of cadence are you doing for those 1500m efforts? Definitely sounds like you're still missing the catch which is why you're not really feeling it in the legs.

One exercise that might be useful is doing "power strokes" where you put the resistance to 10 and then do sets of 10 strokes at a time with a very low cadence. Like about 12 strokes per minute. Aim is pull as hard as you can while still maintaining technique. Slowing it down and jacking up the gearing gives you a decent resistance to work against so can help you get the feel of engaging the legs early and helps teach your body the right muscle activation sequence. Do 5 sets of those with 60 second recoveries (the work is supposed to be muscular not aerobic, hence the low cadence). Then move resistance back down to a more normal 3-5 and try to replicate that same feeling with more normal rowing.

Great to hear! The Canadians are great rowers! One would think with all that cold, water sports would not be there thing, but they would be wrong.

'Foot stretchers' are the general term for the place where your feet go and the platform. As in "hey adjust those foot stretcher up to improve your catch"

At 1:50 you are entering into some real power. Setting at 1 is too light, and you would have to be crazy quick to get a strong catch, choose 3.5 - 6 range would be my suggestion for now. It's good you came off the seat! There is no better way to know the limit without crossing over it. The X-fitters won't be laughing when they see the splits you are pulling.

There is a narrow band between 1) coming off the seat, and 2) opening with the back too soon and being inefficient, very much a 'feeling'. You are doing the right things by experimenting with the feeling (backstroke start is a good example)

Regarding your 3 X 1500m's, you are getting advanced here. Nothing wrong with this, but the 2:XX range can help muscle memory and aerobic capacity. Once you are going into 1:50 range, just be aware your form may start to go when you try to keep your splits down (and the L-acid causes you to not feel parts of your body).

Next to X-country skiing, Rowing is a close 'self inflicted pain', and I've raced both. In time, you can do lactic threshold workout of 2' on 1' off X 3 (5 min active rest in between sets). My guess now, I would say 1:55 to 1:53 pace would be a good place to start for 2 min intervals if you were to try this.

Note: rowing is a unique sport in that you face backward from direction of travel. So the leader can see the whole race. This develops the painful strategy of: 1) Starting like a bat out of hell and creating L-acid, 2) switch to aerobic level (because you can't hold your breath for 6 min, approx. 2000M time), and then the fun part 3) Going back into L-acid zone (and adding to the L-acid already there) for as long as you can stand it to cross the line first. Very painful. I'd much rather go longer than endure that pain. Not sure if it is still the case, but it used to be taboo to even mention the pain of the sport, as if not talking about it made it less : )

Keep at it!



I think I am kind of "getting it". I did not have a chance to go use the C2 for 3 days and went to the gym today after swimming. I was at a tech conference this week and as it turns out, one of the panelists was a former Canadian crew medalist from Atlanta Olympics. So before the panel discussion I started asking her all about rowing and next thing you know we're demoing body motions for both rowing and XC skiing (I was showing her skiing as she's getting into that, and she was showing me rowing). At one point I said, "this catch position almost looks like a swimmer in the starting blocks for a backstroke event and about to explode off the blocks and jump backwards" and she said, "Yes, this is the feeling with the legs, but you have to be hanging onto the oar and bringing it with you".

So ending my swim, I practiced a few back stroke starts and then went up to the gym and tried to bottle that feeling and apply it to the C2. Once I was warmed up and ready to go, I started getting a better connection and was rowing in the 1:50 to 2:10 range and feeling better leg engagement. At one point I actually ejected off the seat and ended up with the seat under my calved, my butt landing on the rail and then I ended up on the floor with the feet stuck in the foot platform (what do you guys call that foot pedal thing???). Anyway, the people in the gym were a bit amused.

I then did a set of 3x1500m and I ended up doing them in the 6:10 to 6:20 range. What I found is that I don't get any leg or glute burn until I am down closer to 1:50. This kind of makes sense....if 1:50 is around 260W and 2:10 is puttering at 160W no wonder I don't feel leg burn at 160W....it's too low aerobic effort to feel like I am doing much more than an easy spin. I think when I have built more base, strengthened my body parts to deal with more load and also gotten the timing down, then I can try some short efforts under 1:50 pace which would be higher than my bike FTP in terms of cardio loading. But it kind of makes sense that my legs are not feeling a ton of load at 2:xx paces.

I also found it easier to "catch" at level 3.5 to 5 vs at level 1.[/quote]

Since this is ST, I’m going to get the front door brag out of the way; I was the 2017 World Indoor Champion in the Men’s 40-49 lightweight division, with a 6:24 at CRASH Bs. I also rowed in a boat with Jordan once...it was either 2009 or 2011, in Princeton at the national training center.

I’ll also say that I haven’t read any replies to your post, so sorry for any duplicate advice:

*Technique: Power comes from the legs, and proper stroke involves connecting the upper body and the lower body via a braced core, kind of like doing a dead lift.. If you feel most of your power coming from your back or your arms, you’re doing it wrong.

*Workouts: when I was rowing in college, it was go hard all the time. It worked as a 20-25 year old. But as a 40 year old, I started following a more polarized model and would cruise at 2:03-2:15 per 500 at 20-22 stroke rate on non-interval days. On interval days, I’d do 30/30s, 4x4mins best avg/2mins easy, best avg 500M repeats on 90secs rest, 1min on/1min off, 10-20 strokes best effort at varying stroke rates, but mostly at race pace....all training for the 2K, which my best at age 41 was 6:24 (was 6:15 at age 25).

*Long workouts: I can handle boredom well, so I just plow through longer (30-60min) workouts at lower rate, lower effort....maybe some 20-30 stroke efforts every few minutes. Or some pyramids, but all within Z2.

*Injury stuff: ribs can be in issue if you do too much, too hard, too soon. The other obvious one is the back if you have poor form, especially with hard efforts. If you do it enough, you’ll likely also get callouses and/or blisters on your hands. Other possibly maladies could come in the elbows....at least that’s my experience. If you have any ACL issues, that could also become a problem.

---

_________________________________
Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |

Today on the way back home from work, I stopped by the city gym that is on the way home and just hopped on the C2 in my jeans and T shirt and did 3x1500m at 2:10 to 2:30 pace with 3 min of elliptical and a few weight exercises in between the 1500's. I will swing by on the way home most day and do this circuit at this range of pace to build some base before getting too overexcited pushing too hard. My main workout of the day is a hard swim done in the morning or lunch, typically 3500m-5000m with the main set focused on IM or fly right now as I am trying to bring down my 200IM, 400IM and 200 fly times. So I won't have much juice at the end of the day and this level of "base work" will be good and force me to work on the form items you guys are trying to get me to focus on.

The nice thing about the pool is that I don't have a "meter' in front of my face. On the C2, I can easily get sucked into the self defeating carrot of racing the number in front of my face. It's why when I bike indoors, some days I would just cover the screen on my computrainer or ride my rollers, because this way I can just go aerobic and not overdo it. Knowing this, most days that I ride outdoors, or run outdoors there is no power meter, no watch, no speedometer, no GPS. Just feel. 2x per week in both those sports, I measure what I am doing and chase the numbers. So it will be challenging for me to self police and not get competitive with the meter in front of my face.

I just wanted to throw in a thanks for this thread. I’ve been toying with getting a rower for awhile. The wife does crossfit type workouts in our home gym and she’s been wanting to get one so we pulled the trigger. I’ve messed around but never really put in any time on one before. I have an arthritic hip which is really making running hot or miss. So my thought was I could supplement some runs with the rower. I know it’s not an apples to apples thing but it seems like the best available option to keep me going.

I just finished my first row and I have to say that was pretty damn fun. I did Devs 3 x 1500. The first one was super easy z1 just trying to remember all the tips I’ve read so far and it felt a bit awkward and disjointed but a success for the most part. 7:28 for the 1500. I’m sure pathetically slow but I enjoyed it. #2 I tried to get a bit more ryhthm. Felt better eeked into z2 a tiny bit but 7:24. Still nice an easy simulating todays easy run zones. The last one I gave myself to the top of zone 2. Everything felt better. Better ryhthm, started to feel the backstroke start more. It just felt better. 7:05.

That was a long winded thank you. We leave for a vacation in a week but when I come back I’m going to head over to the local rowing club and have someone watch me. I’d like to learn the right way rather than try to fix it a year in once I’ve solidified bad habits. Thanks again, keep this thread going so I can learn me something.

I can’t imagine you have many memories of it, Marty, but you coached me - fall of my senior year of HS (04) at Mercer Juniors. I learned a lot about myself, and reset some of my thresholds of “toughness” in that season. That ability to “re-calibrate” my toughness helped a lot in college (Holy Cross) and post college (PACRA). Just wanted to say thanks!

---

----
@adamwfurlong

Of course I do. They’ve made a rule prohibiting prep school kids from Hun, Lville or Peddie rowing for Mercer because of you. Did you know that? Let’s get out and ride soon.

MC

Flip the monitor up; or tape over the 500m split (or watts) field so that only time, distance and spm are showing; or switch to the power curve screen, and also tape over the split.

---

no sponsors | no races | nothing to see here

I can work with "flip the monitor up" and then just go by time of day in the gym, but the key is to NOT PEAK AT THE MONITOR AFTER.....because you know what happens if I do that....I'll just have no monitor and end up hammering for 5-8 minutes at a time and check what the outcome was and then go do some weights and elliptical and come back and want to beat it, which will defeat the purpose. So I will make a deal with you to flip it up and not look at all today. Let's see how that works!

Question for you guys. Most sports we apply force through our feet heel to toe (that's generally how humans push off). But it seems for rowing we start with pressure on the ball of the foot and then move backwards to the heel, so more of a toe to heel sequence. At least when I started doing that, my pace went from 2:10 to 2:00 at the same perceived exertion. But at the end of the stroke, my heels are jammed into the foot platform, but my toes are 1 cm tot 1.5 cm off the platform in the air (this does not seem to be what others are doing). But if try to keep my toes down in contact, I feel like I am pushing against "not as much". Also the straps end up coming a touch loose but seem to stabilize at the looseness where my toes come a bit off the platform on each row.

Then you're doing it correctly.

Don't do this.

Do some steady state stokes w/o the straps—either make them so loose that you could fit 2 feet in each strap, or put your feet on top of the straps. This drill will teach "connection" between you, and the "boat". At the release, you want your foot flat on the footboard, with pressure going through your entire foot.

This drill will also teach you the correct body position—and core posture/support—at the release.

---

no sponsors | no races | nothing to see here

I had a question on the altitude front. Obviously aerobically things should be harder, but the fan inside is pushing less air molecules too. Or does the drag factor magically calculate how much air is being moved around inside the unit and normalizes for altitude thinner air?

Philly 1x had good advice. You should never feel like you’re falling backwards and the straps are holding you in place.

Try to keep feet flat on floorboards all the way through the drive. If you fall off erg, no biggy, it just means that your weight is getting behind your hips too quickly in the drive phase.

Still waiting for that video. Send it straight to me if you don’t want the slowtwitch fish bowl.

the way it was described to me (with regards to feet) is that you are basically doing an olympic clean.
Power through the feet into the boards, meaning you need to be grounded properly, arms straight, back straight and core engaged, as your legs straighten your back changes angle but remains engaged, then your arms finish with the pull.

my dad rowed high level university in the UK, at 63 he can still put a lot of people to shame simply because his form is so dialled and there is no wasted effort. bought him a concept2 2 years ago to go with his kurt kinetic and he absolutely loves it.

This will be my first year rowing, and I'll be taking adult "learn to row" class twice a week for a few weeks at the Minneapolis Rowing Club. I'm 5'7" and I fluctuate between 140-145lbs roughly, depending on if I've just finished a 3-day trip (flight attendent). I assume I'm at a disadvantage, even more so than when I swam competitively. My goal over the winter was to end the winter weighing 152, but I discovered Nordic Skiing (I live seriously close to seriously good skiing). I lifted and skied plenty, and did 1-2 erg sessions per week, usually only half an hour. I'll be doing more in the wet spring in addition to cycling and lifting.

Thanks for posting some workout suggestions. I'm curious as to what my drag (?) setting should be at my weight. I do want to compete by the end of the summer, but I'm not entirely sure what to expect. I just want to work hard and have fun on the water with whoever I'm rowing with...but I also want to perform as well as I can, considering this will be my first season rowing.

---

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5

110-115

---

no sponsors | no races | nothing to see here

Greek to me...should have been specific. I have access to a concept2, so 1-10 is my choice.

---

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5

boobooaboo wrote:

Greek to me...should have been specific. I have access to a concept2, so 1-10 is my choice.

He is talking about a C2. There is a more precise way to do it than just setting it to 3:


http://www.concept2.com/.../viewing-drag-factor

---

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Thanks!

Edit: simple but this will help me be more precise. Didn’t even know that existed. Awesome!

---

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5

Hey Darkhorsetri...are you the same guy as Darkhorse Rowing, or are you an athlete that trains with Darkhorse Rowing. I assume you're the same person, if so, thanks for your videos on youtube.