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Re: What do I Need to know about Indoor Rowing? [speedyturtle] [ In reply to ]
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Is the class for indoor or outdoor rowing? Here is it specifically? (I didn’t know there was any rowing in Ft Worth). Indoor would take relatively little skill to teach. Outdoor is obviously much more difficult and should probably start with how to ensure you don’t flip the boat! No terminology comes to mind but I was lucky enough to be surrounded by strong coaching talent most of my rowing career. Feel free to check during in during lessons and we may be able to verify and/or call out any bs they throw at you. Old school isn’t necessarily bad as I guess I would have to put myself in the bucket since I’m coming up on 20 years since rowing “retirement” and pretty far removed from the scene altogether.
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Re: What do I Need to know about Indoor Rowing? [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, it’s on the Trinity River near downtown. I guess there’s a club. They keep the smaller shells there, then the larger ones are on Marine Creek Reservoir. The classes are 2x per week for 3 weeks, thankfully not just done once and done course. OWS experience should come in handy when I tip the shell over.
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Re: What do I Need to know about Indoor Rowing? [speedyturtle] [ In reply to ]
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 Yes at least water will be warm enough. I can remember our season in high school in Boston starting with a rowing video showing us how quickly we would develop hypothermia if we fell in. Do you know if it sculling (2 oars each) or sweep (1 oar)?
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Re: What do I Need to know about Indoor Rowing? [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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I think they may start us in a 2x scull, judging by the videos & class location. The sweep boats are at another location. I’m interested in learning how to scull, so I can wander off and run into stuff when I forget to look around
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Re: What do I Need to know about Indoor Rowing? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Maybe I should just cap things at >2:15 per 500m speed and stay firmly in 'rehab mode' which was the entire point? It just seems like your back should get stronger as you do more as long as you do it correctly? I am assuming it is one of these things that could be great for rehab if you stay in control and do it properly, and great for destroying things if you go too hard, and collapse to poor lumbar form and put too much load on there before you have the strength to deal with it?
Your core will become stronger—which does include your back. But if you overload, or don't row w/ proper technique, you'll risk herniated discs, stress-factured ribs, and being grumpy from the resulting extracurricular injuries.

Don't be a cross-fitter. Don't overload. Given your stature, I'd keep that fan set <3. To be precise, no more than a drag factor of 115.

Sit tall—not rigid—from the hips. As if you were in a movie theater, behind someone who's taller than you, and to see the screen you have to sit tall (but relaxed) to see over their 10gal cowboy hat.

Generally, when not doing HIIT, rate somewhere comfortable, maybe 18-22spm. Lower cadence is a lot more load to achieve a desired split; higher and it's likely that your technique will tend to break down (until you can master sequence at a lower cadence), and you'll likely shoot your slide and then try to muscle the stroke w/ the upper body, etc.

I hope this helps.

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Last edited by: philly1x: Mar 4, 18 16:21
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Re: What do I Need to know about Indoor Rowing? [philly1x] [ In reply to ]
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philly1x wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Maybe I should just cap things at >2:15 per 500m speed and stay firmly in 'rehab mode' which was the entire point? It just seems like your back should get stronger as you do more as long as you do it correctly? I am assuming it is one of these things that could be great for rehab if you stay in control and do it properly, and great for destroying things if you go too hard, and collapse to poor lumbar form and put too much load on there before you have the strength to deal with it?

Your core will become stronger—which does include your back. But if you overload, or don't row w/ proper technique, you'll risk herniated discs, stress-factured ribs, and being grumpy from the resulting extracurricular injuries.

Don't be a cross-fitter. Don't overload. Given your stature, I'd keep that fan set <3. To be precise, no more than a drag factor of 115.

Sit tall—not rigid—from the hips. As if you were in a movie theater, behind someone who's taller than you, and to see the screen you have to sit tall (but relaxed) to see over their 10gal cowboy hat.

Generally, when not doing HIIT, rate somewhere comfortable, maybe 18-22spm. Lower cadence is a lot more load to achieve a desired split; higher and it's likely that your technique will tend to break down (until you can master sequence at a lower cadence), and you'll likely shoot your slide and then try to muscle the stroke w/ the upper body, etc.

I hope this helps.

To avoid the part in bold, What I was trying to do is basically do nothing with my upper body other than using it as a link between the legs and the hands. Basically the drill shown by this sequence of images:



I assume this solves the "shoot your slide" problem? Once this is mastered, then I can use the upper body and then then finish with the arms.

Once I get to actually using my upper body after the last picture on the right, I still end up seeing stroke rates for 30-40 range, not 20-30 range.

Sorry, I left my phone in the car when I went to the gym/pool today as it was dead. So I will record a video on the next session.

I have been setting the machine at "3", but I think "1" could be just as useful as I was told that the lower range is like on water. Does the drag factor just change how quickly the flywheel slows down between strokes so you carry less momentum into the next....so does it mean it would be harder to go say 2:30 per 500m on 10 than 1? Everytime I have gone into the gym, seems the machine is on 8-10 range!!!!
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Re: What do I Need to know about Indoor Rowing? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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If you're seeing high stroke rates it's because you're shooting up the slide on the recovery. Which in turn likely means you're not going into the catch position (the start of the stroke) with any sort of control. Try to keep the stroke rate/cadence in the low 20s by slowing down your arms, then body swing, then legs on the recovery. You should be approaching the start of the stroke quite slowly (it will feel very slow at first if you've been going at 30-40), well controlled and with your arms and body already well set to transfer the force as soon as you engage your legs. It will feel really strange at first but keep working at it as it will really help you establish a good rhythm and good body position. Count 1-2-3 in your head on each stroke, where 1 is the drive portion of the stroke and 2-3 is the recovery portion.

3 is fine, I do all my training at 3-4. You're correct that the change governs how quickly the flywheel slows down, I think it also impacts the rate at which the flywheel accelerates. BUT neither 1 nor 10 is "easier" - the software calculates the drag factor and adjusts accordingly so generating a split of 2:30 requires the same amount of work regardless of what resistance setting you're on. What changes is how it feels. It's kind of like the difference between generating 200W on the bike at a cadence of 50 in a high gear, versus generating 200W at a cadence of 100 in a low gear - you're doing the same amount of work but will feel quite different. Except with rowing instead of working constantly against that resistance as you do on the bike, you're only working against it during part of the stroke, the other part you're recovering. If you're trying to do sports specific strength training then rowers might use a 10 setting for very short efforts, or for sets of very low cadence strokes (kind of like doing low cadence hill work on the bike), otherwise most people use 3-4 most of the time.
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Re: What do I Need to know about Indoor Rowing? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Reasonable rowing minds can disagree on this point but...the series of pictures is certainly a viable way to row and it is probably easiest just to think legs, back, arms. Personally, I found the most effective way to row was for the back to start to swing around pic 3 (ie when the legs are mostly, but not all the way down) if that makes sense. And, yes, I would recommend 2-4 setting. I always see the machines on 8-10 at the gym which is ridiculous. 2-4 will obviously feel lighter but that will make it easier to spin it up and be less likely to injure yourself, especially your back.
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Re: What do I Need to know about Indoor Rowing? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
I have been setting the machine at "3", but I think "1" could be just as useful as I was told that the lower range is like on water. Does the drag factor just change how quickly the flywheel slows down between strokes so you carry less momentum into the next....so does it mean it would be harder to go say 2:30 per 500m on 10 than 1? Everytime I have gone into the gym, seems the machine is on 8-10 range!!!!

Drag factor is the calculated wheel deceleration to due (mostly) air resistance.

Drag factor is precise.
A fan setting of 3 is like specifying 3rd gear.
A Drag Factor of XXX is like specifying 53x23.

Because of several factors—mostly dust buildup in the fan cage—a relative fan setting number may not have a 100% correlation to a specific drag factor when comparing load across multiple ergs. So, a fan setting of 3 on one erg might equate to a 5 on another erg, or a 2 on a third erg.

Drag Factor is precise, and can be used on any erg to replicate the same load across multiple machines.

ETA: photos above are good, maybe the model is a bit rigid/stiff, his heels are too high and his shins are past 90° at the catch.

Be tall, not rigid. When doing legs only, you want the handle to move with the seat. For the sake of simplicity, when doing this drill: if the seat moves 60cm on the drive, the handle must move 60cm on the drive.

Once the back and arms engage, this ratio and the speed at which the handle speed increases relative to seat speed, increases.

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Last edited by: philly1x: Mar 5, 18 5:52
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Re: What do I Need to know about Indoor Rowing? [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
Reasonable rowing minds can disagree on this point but...the series of pictures is certainly a viable way to row and it is probably easiest just to think legs, back, arms. Personally, I found the most effective way to row was for the back to start to swing around pic 3 (ie when the legs are mostly, but not all the way down) if that makes sense. And, yes, I would recommend 2-4 setting. I always see the machines on 8-10 at the gym which is ridiculous. 2-4 will obviously feel lighter but that will make it easier to spin it up and be less likely to injure yourself, especially your back.

What I was doing was the "leg drill" in the 4 pic sequence above to warm up (well, that's silly, I just did 90 min in the pool before with a crazy hard set of IM and butterfly, but whatever). Then the idea was to "open up" from the 11 O'Clock (or 12) to ~1-2 o'clock and then have the final arm engagement (roughly this is the exact inverse to skate skiing where you start with a crunch and use your body as a whip and finish with your lats and hands, so I kind of get the whip sequencing in terms of human kinetics).

I still really did not feel my legs doing a ton of work doing the leg drill as show in the picture. I tried all types of foot positions (high foot placement, low foot placement, sitting on a pad). So I think I need to take a video so you guys can comment on what I am doing wrong. At the gym, really no one knows. I am probably already the foremost expert on the machine at the gym who ever shows up there thanks to this thread. Everyone there is clueless, but they are about human kinetics on pretty well all machines other than when the squat rack at 300 to 500 lbs on it, and then those people become smart, because you can't lift that much without knowing what you are doing....cardio equipment you can use in all stupid manners.
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Re: What do I Need to know about Indoor Rowing? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Would guess that your body is moving on the catch which is preventing an effective power transfer from your legs and/or your legs simply aren't engaging quickly enough to do much work for the first half of the stroke.

Slow things right down and introduce a pause before the catch (kind of like catch up drills in swimming). Make sure you're sitting up tall at the catch, arms extended, weight on the balls of your feet. Pause. Then just push through the feet, focusing on being quick, relaxed and powerful. The aim is for a quick catch so that you can feel resistance through the handle immediately. Every inch that the seat moves should translate to the handle also moving an inch. If the seat is moving more than the handle then you're shoving your ass backwards without engaging your upper body properly. If you're doing everything right then at the beginning of the stroke it should almost feel like you're hanging off the handle while your legs do all the work. If you've ever lifted weights then it's a similar feeling to a deadlift or a clean where your legs do all of the initial work.

As you start to get a feel for it, make the pause shorter and shorter until you're ready to start that leg drive the moment you get to the end of your recovery.
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Re: What do I Need to know about Indoor Rowing? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Paul,
so I read this thread up to this point. There are a lot of good points, although some are getting ahead of where you are IMHO.

Like some posters here, I've spent my share of time on C2 rowers (and on the water, mostly single scull). I'm non-traditional as a 'rower' and on smaller size similar to you.

1) Like anything, a base and conditioning should be developed before jumping into 'speed' work. So I agree with your 2:15/500M pace (chose any stroke rate between 20-30 9 strokes per min.) that feels natural. Like you had said, choose a 'resistance' setting somewhere between 4-6. choosing a setting of 8-10 would mimic rowing with an anchor in tow. (equivalent to riding with a 53X11, all the time).

2) Yes, rowing is a leg/back sport, and as such you will notice endurance strength over time. Let your body tell you when you are ready to lower the 500M split time and increase your stroke rating. This is more of the variable than choosing the resistance setting on the C2. This is why people will define rowing workouts in terms of Heart Rate & Stroke Rate, and interval time.

3) Get in-person coaching. my attempt to give a 'coaching tip' would be the concept of "hang". you want the pressure on your butt to be lightened, due to the pressure and timing of your leg/and hip angle opening. Open too soon and you will drive pressure into the seat (butt), open way too slow and your butt can actually come off the seat. You are balancing in the middle where you are actually using your body weight to help leverage between your feet and hands. This is like a golf swing, or swimming stroke. takes a day to learn the sequence and a lifetime to master.

Enjoy, next to X-country skiing, Rowing is a good contender for the single all body workout. I've done both, skiing is more aerobic based, and rowing is more strength/power based IMHO.



devashish_paul wrote:
Maybe I should just cap things at >2:15 per 500m speed and stay firmly in 'rehab mode' which was the entire point? It just seems like your back should get stronger as you do more as long as you do it correctly? I am assuming it is one of these things that could be great for rehab if you stay in control and do it properly, and great for destroying things if you go too hard, and collapse to poor lumbar form and put too much load on there before you have the strength to deal with it?

Swimming has been excellent. Honestly, I am certain if I did not have swimming, I'd have been in a wheelchair or on crutches. My crutches sit quietly in my workout room and I hope to have them never more from that spot again, but I don't trust myself enough to actually throw them away!!!!
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Re: What do I Need to know about Indoor Rowing? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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N=1 for me, but take it for what it's worth:

I signed up for the Walt Disney World Dopey Challenge for January 2018, a four-day race consisting of a 5k-marathon on consecutive days and increasing the distance each day. The training was all about volume and recovery and wouldn't you know it, along comes shin splints about 6 weeks out from the race right in the middle of my second huge and most important training block...

At the urging of my physio I hit the erg - I basically trained on that damn machine for five weeks while getting twice-weekly shin splint protocol from the witch doctor. I trained by HR zone, so if a workout called for ten miles at Z2, I would approximate the time that would take, and hit the erg for that amount of time being careful to stay within the HR - I would do that with basically every other training sessions at different intensities, times, etc... This include the largest training block I would perform, a three-hour gruelfest on the stupid machine that, in the interest of full disclosure, I just couldn't do because BORING... So I mixed in a few 20-minutes elliptical sessions to get out of the rut.

At any rate, at the end of the five weeks I started running again slowly and just in time for the taper for the event, and felt I lost very little. After the two-week taper I felt I had spring, fitness and went into the event feeling awesome - completed the event standing up and had a great time.

Other observations - even with an iPad playing your favorite take-your-mind-anywhere-but-the-present the workouts are still boring as can be, and a great mental prep. Likely reason for that is, because it's a foreign exercise especially at first, there is a lot of self-assessment and ensuring you're in the proper HRZ.

Also, I learned early on that grip is important if you don't want to blister, and believe me you don't... The grip should be loose on the pull and the catch - you shouldn't be holding on tight with white knuckles... Treat the thing like a golf club...

One more thing, you didn't need to have the lever set at 10 - for endurance and generally fitness and not to work out your back and arms too much, a 5-6 would do just fine. You will, however, get a great back and arm workout regardless, so enjoy that added benefit.

I haven't all of the responses, so if this is repetitive, apologies but wanted to give my actual N=1 experience...

Edited to add: standing up every 30-45 minutes? Huge help in mental state and your butt will thank you...
Last edited by: acefields23: Mar 5, 18 14:28
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Re: What do I Need to know about Indoor Rowing? [mfrassica] [ In reply to ]
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What if I do this.....sit in the catch phase and try to get my butt off the seat while hanging onto the handle. I assume there would be no way to do this without a sold connection from hands through body to feet. Then I should be set?
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Re: What do I Need to know about Indoor Rowing? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
What if I do this.....sit in the catch phase and try to get my butt off the seat while hanging onto the handle. I assume there would be no way to do this without a sold connection from hands through body to feet. Then I should be set?

You mean like this:

https://vimeo.com/220090603

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Re: What do I Need to know about Indoor Rowing? [philly1x] [ In reply to ]
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philly1x wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
What if I do this.....sit in the catch phase and try to get my butt off the seat while hanging onto the handle. I assume there would be no way to do this without a sold connection from hands through body to feet. Then I should be set?


You mean like this:

https://vimeo.com/220090603

OK this is what I was visualizing....almost a backward jump while holding the handle. I think this is what I am missing. I "assume" it may be easier to get this "feeling" putting the tension on 10 only for the feeling of this drill?
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Re: What do I Need to know about Indoor Rowing? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Eureka!

You see what a 5 second video can do?

This is exactly what every single novice health club erg-er, or learn-to-row enthusiast should do before they are allowed to take one haphazard stroke.

Dev, if you have someone who can do what Mike (holder of the handle) is doing with Sara (complete stud and erg model), no need to put the fan setting on (10). Once you feel this "suspension" one time, you ought to be able to execute at (1) or (5) or anywhere on the spectrum. The feeling you will get as you push down on the footboards, engage your "trunk", and get the suspension that Sara is so perfectly displaying makes rowing, rowing.

I feel confident that you've got this now, but please continue to fire questions at this board.
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Re: What do I Need to know about Indoor Rowing? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Has anyone experience of adding a rowing session to a swim or run workout? I'm assuming that doing it after would make more sense.

My rationale is that it would strengthen glutes, hamstrings whilst being an alternative to adding run mileage. Though I guess the elliptical would be another substitute for running?
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Re: What do I Need to know about Indoor Rowing? [JackL] [ In reply to ]
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JackL wrote:
Has anyone experience of adding a rowing session to a swim or run workout? I'm assuming that doing it after would make more sense.

My rationale is that it would strengthen glutes, hamstrings whilst being an alternative to adding run mileage. Though I guess the elliptical would be another substitute for running?

I have, but not sure I'd agree with your rationale. I used to row in university and I think the ergo is awesome for general fitness, but doesn't really have much of a place in a swim, bike, run training programme. Fitting in those 3 sports is hard enough already (especially if you try to do any strength work as well) without adding in a 4th. Would only really consider it if there is something stopping you from swimming, biking or running more. E.g. you're at a hotel in a place where there's no pool, you can't run outside, the exercise bikes suck but they have a nice Concept 2 in the corner. Or you have an injury which flares up if you run more than 20 miles a week. If that's the case then yes, rowing after you do your specificity makes more sense. With the proviso that rowing after a hard swimming workout would likely be fairly unpleasant!
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Re: What do I Need to know about Indoor Rowing? [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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Finally something on slowtwitch I feel qualified to talk about :)
I rowed to a high level at school and uni. Triathlon was started to get the fix i need after i stopped rowing.
I think that its great to see so many ex oarsman on this forum although it doesn't surprise me - triathletes and rowers are cut from the same cloth as massochists who like pain and cold early mornings

To OP get on the erg and enjoy yourself. Mix of workouts like on the bike with either intervals eg 10x500m with 1:30 rest or the longer ut2 (Z2-3) stuff eg 3x6k 2 min rest to drink and stretch. Music is essential

As for technique youtube it. My 2 cents - lots of people struggle with sequencing off the finish of the stroke - that is when you finish your stroke get your arms away and body over before your legs start moving up the slide again.

Slowtwitch erg meet needs to happen.
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Re: What do I Need to know about Indoor Rowing? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Exactly! The old C2 ergs had an aluminum flywheel that you could 'stick a screw driver' in the veins to 'lock' the wheel. Then you could do exactly what you described.

This gives you the 'sensation', however it is in static environment. The trick is to repeate I think over and I've read in the dynamic power application.

This is the fun of the sport however, when can 'hit' this equilibrium over and over, you will feel see your 500/M split drop and with no precieved effort. Maybe I'm bias, but few sports have this.

Baseball hitting a home run may be one, but rowing is taking a swing about 30 times a minute.



devashish_paul wrote:
What if I do this.....sit in the catch phase and try to get my butt off the seat while hanging onto the handle. I assume there would be no way to do this without a sold connection from hands through body to feet. Then I should be set?
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Re: What do I Need to know about Indoor Rowing? [mfrassica] [ In reply to ]
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mfrassica wrote:
Exactly! The old C2 ergs had an aluminum flywheel that you could 'stick a screw driver' in the veins to 'lock' the wheel. Then you could do exactly what you described.

This gives you the 'sensation', however it is in static environment. The trick is to repeate I think over and I've read in the dynamic power application.

This is the fun of the sport however, when can 'hit' this equilibrium over and over, you will feel see your 500/M split drop and with no precieved effort. Maybe I'm bias, but few sports have this.

Baseball hitting a home run may be one, but rowing is taking a swing about 30 times a minute.



devashish_paul wrote:
What if I do this.....sit in the catch phase and try to get my butt off the seat while hanging onto the handle. I assume there would be no way to do this without a sold connection from hands through body to feet. Then I should be set?

Maybe we can put the tennis serve that ends up being an ace in the same category. You know it is going to happen when the ball hits the apex above your head and your body is perfectly aligned and you can feel the perfect timing down from your feet long before you actually hit the ball. It's that feeling of "this serve is going to be so awesome". I think you can get that same feeling with a soccer header that is going to be into the next. As soon as the ball leave's the other player's foot, you know what the field will look like 1 second from now, you can feel your position in the air as float with your back arched and coiled up to unleash a microsecond before your head and ball make the perfect contact point before you crunch with your abs and you make that perfect connection. In both of these cases though, the application of force is the other way....the recoil is with lower back, the force application starts with front of body....in rowing, it's the reverse.

It looks like the feeling I should search for is that moment when you just get the barbell off the ground doing a deadlift from a deep squat position, except this deadlift is not from flat ground but from a platform at 45 degree angle (or whatever angle that board is set at on the C2). I can see how you can mess up your back doing this incorrectly.
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Re: What do I Need to know about Indoor Rowing? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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The typical lower back loading should be nowhere close to a clean or deadlift. A novice mistake, and one that I can still make, is to over reach the catch. Which does not put you in a powerful or quick position.

If it helps any, the C2 rowing erg is so popular in the boathouses due to its ability to mimic the true feel of rowing on the water. This is my transition to talking about the forces and dynamics of actual rowing. Only when first starting from a stand still, is the force rather high (on your back). So the old 'starting sequence' was 1/2 stroke, 1/2 stroke, 3/4, full stroke. I guess look at youtube for examples. This is to maximize the strength and minimize the stress on the body, when starting from a stand still. Once you get moving, force decreases drastically (compared to the start) and the art of rowing is to quickly and efficiently apply power (force. over distance, with min. time). The distance is why the sliding seat was invented, the force is helped by how quickly you can connect with the water, and time is really the stroke rate.

force is complicated when dealing with water (or air in the erg's case), as many swimmers know offers no resistance when force is applied slowly to water (or air), so the 'catch' phase is critical for 'catching' (creating a differential pressure) and applying force on the blade. The erg is measuring the angular acceleration, so the 500m splits are measuring the change in speed, not the net force applied.

This is why a pure rower who is lighter could beat a stronger non-rower with a 'lighter setting' on the erg. The lighter setting requires a quicker catch to get the same splits. This translates more to actual rowing, where stroke rates are crazy high and force must be applied in a blink of an eye.

devashish_paul wrote:
mfrassica wrote:
Exactly! The old C2 ergs had an aluminum flywheel that you could 'stick a screw driver' in the veins to 'lock' the wheel. Then you could do exactly what you described.

This gives you the 'sensation', however it is in static environment. The trick is to repeate I think over and I've read in the dynamic power application.

This is the fun of the sport however, when can 'hit' this equilibrium over and over, you will feel see your 500/M split drop and with no precieved effort. Maybe I'm bias, but few sports have this.

Baseball hitting a home run may be one, but rowing is taking a swing about 30 times a minute.



devashish_paul wrote:
What if I do this.....sit in the catch phase and try to get my butt off the seat while hanging onto the handle. I assume there would be no way to do this without a sold connection from hands through body to feet. Then I should be set?


Maybe we can put the tennis serve that ends up being an ace in the same category. You know it is going to happen when the ball hits the apex above your head and your body is perfectly aligned and you can feel the perfect timing down from your feet long before you actually hit the ball. It's that feeling of "this serve is going to be so awesome". I think you can get that same feeling with a soccer header that is going to be into the next. As soon as the ball leave's the other player's foot, you know what the field will look like 1 second from now, you can feel your position in the air as float with your back arched and coiled up to unleash a microsecond before your head and ball make the perfect contact point before you crunch with your abs and you make that perfect connection. In both of these cases though, the application of force is the other way....the recoil is with lower back, the force application starts with front of body....in rowing, it's the reverse.

It looks like the feeling I should search for is that moment when you just get the barbell off the ground doing a deadlift from a deep squat position, except this deadlift is not from flat ground but from a platform at 45 degree angle (or whatever angle that board is set at on the C2). I can see how you can mess up your back doing this incorrectly.
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Re: What do I Need to know about Indoor Rowing? [mfrassica] [ In reply to ]
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mfrassica wrote:
The typical lower back loading should be nowhere close to a clean or deadlift. A novice mistake, and one that I can still make, is to over reach the catch. Which does not put you in a powerful or quick position.

If it helps any, the C2 rowing erg is so popular in the boathouses due to its ability to mimic the true feel of rowing on the water. This is my transition to talking about the forces and dynamics of actual rowing. Only when first starting from a stand still, is the force rather high (on your back). So the old 'starting sequence' was 1/2 stroke, 1/2 stroke, 3/4, full stroke. I guess look at youtube for examples. This is to maximize the strength and minimize the stress on the body, when starting from a stand still. Once you get moving, force decreases drastically (compared to the start) and the art of rowing is to quickly and efficiently apply power (force. over distance, with min. time). The distance is why the sliding seat was invented, the force is helped by how quickly you can connect with the water, and time is really the stroke rate.

force is complicated when dealing with water (or air in the erg's case), as many swimmers know offers no resistance when force is applied slowly to water (or air), so the 'catch' phase is critical for 'catching' (creating a differential pressure) and applying force on the blade. The erg is measuring the angular acceleration, so the 500m splits are measuring the change in speed, not the net force applied.

This is why a pure rower who is lighter could beat a stronger non-rower with a 'lighter setting' on the erg. The lighter setting requires a quicker catch to get the same splits. This translates more to actual rowing, where stroke rates are crazy high and force must be applied in a blink of an eye.

devashish_paul wrote:
mfrassica wrote:
Exactly! The old C2 ergs had an aluminum flywheel that you could 'stick a screw driver' in the veins to 'lock' the wheel. Then you could do exactly what you described.

This gives you the 'sensation', however it is in static environment. The trick is to repeate I think over and I've read in the dynamic power application.

This is the fun of the sport however, when can 'hit' this equilibrium over and over, you will feel see your 500/M split drop and with no precieved effort. Maybe I'm bias, but few sports have this.

Baseball hitting a home run may be one, but rowing is taking a swing about 30 times a minute.



devashish_paul wrote:
What if I do this.....sit in the catch phase and try to get my butt off the seat while hanging onto the handle. I assume there would be no way to do this without a sold connection from hands through body to feet. Then I should be set?


Maybe we can put the tennis serve that ends up being an ace in the same category. You know it is going to happen when the ball hits the apex above your head and your body is perfectly aligned and you can feel the perfect timing down from your feet long before you actually hit the ball. It's that feeling of "this serve is going to be so awesome". I think you can get that same feeling with a soccer header that is going to be into the next. As soon as the ball leave's the other player's foot, you know what the field will look like 1 second from now, you can feel your position in the air as float with your back arched and coiled up to unleash a microsecond before your head and ball make the perfect contact point before you crunch with your abs and you make that perfect connection. In both of these cases though, the application of force is the other way....the recoil is with lower back, the force application starts with front of body....in rowing, it's the reverse.

It looks like the feeling I should search for is that moment when you just get the barbell off the ground doing a deadlift from a deep squat position, except this deadlift is not from flat ground but from a platform at 45 degree angle (or whatever angle that board is set at on the C2). I can see how you can mess up your back doing this incorrectly.

I think I am kind of "getting it". I did not have a chance to go use the C2 for 3 days and went to the gym today after swimming. I was at a tech conference this week and as it turns out, one of the panelists was a former Canadian crew medalist from Atlanta Olympics. So before the panel discussion I started asking her all about rowing and next thing you know we're demoing body motions for both rowing and XC skiing (I was showing her skiing as she's getting into that, and she was showing me rowing). At one point I said, "this catch position almost looks like a swimmer in the starting blocks for a backstroke event and about to explode off the blocks and jump backwards" and she said, "Yes, this is the feeling with the legs, but you have to be hanging onto the oar and bringing it with you".

So ending my swim, I practiced a few back stroke starts and then went up to the gym and tried to bottle that feeling and apply it to the C2. Once I was warmed up and ready to go, I started getting a better connection and was rowing in the 1:50 to 2:10 range and feeling better leg engagement. At one point I actually ejected off the seat and ended up with the seat under my calved, my butt landing on the rail and then I ended up on the floor with the feet stuck in the foot platform (what do you guys call that foot pedal thing???). Anyway, the people in the gym were a bit amused.

I then did a set of 3x1500m and I ended up doing them in the 6:10 to 6:20 range. What I found is that I don't get any leg or glute burn until I am down closer to 1:50. This kind of makes sense....if 1:50 is around 260W and 2:10 is puttering at 160W no wonder I don't feel leg burn at 160W....it's too low aerobic effort to feel like I am doing much more than an easy spin. I think when I have built more base, strengthened my body parts to deal with more load and also gotten the timing down, then I can try some short efforts under 1:50 pace which would be higher than my bike FTP in terms of cardio loading. But it kind of makes sense that my legs are not feeling a ton of load at 2:xx paces.

I also found it easier to "catch" at level 3.5 to 5 vs at level 1.
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Re: What do I Need to know about Indoor Rowing? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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New WR set today (10th March aussie time)


Just in case you feel like it ;-) .




Last edited by: tuckandgo: Mar 10, 18 13:52
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