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What depth front wheel
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I'm about to buy a new set of wheels and have never had anything over a 50mm on the front and was thinking about buying a set of 81mm front and rear. Thoughts-is it really that much of an issue in gusty wind? Ive never really had a problem with the 50mm
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Re: What depth front wheel [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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Read Cam Wurf own wind tunnel testing and there are barely any instances where deep wheels are an advantage and that wasn't factoring in Kona. The deeper the wheel it is only in strong gusts I find it can be sketchy. The number of times I've ridden home and am sitting up relaxed on the bars and the wind rushes between high rise apartments where I live on the beach and almost sends me to the pavement but if you have ok bike skills and are actually riding your bike you learn to handle gusts easy enough.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Interview/Cam_Wurf_ain_t_scared_to_throw_down_6659.html
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Re: What depth front wheel [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Shambolic wrote:
Read Cam Wurf own wind tunnel testing and there are barely any instances where deep wheels are an advantage and that wasn't factoring in Kona. The deeper the wheel it is only in strong gusts I find it can be sketchy. The number of times I've ridden home and am sitting up relaxed on the bars and the wind rushes between high rise apartments where I live on the beach and almost sends me to the pavement but if you have ok bike skills and are actually riding your bike you learn to handle gusts easy enough.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Interview/Cam_Wurf_ain_t_scared_to_throw_down_6659.html

Huh sorry I don’t understand-are you saying deep wheels are a con? But u have a set-just for asthetics?
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Re: What depth front wheel [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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dunno wrote:
Shambolic wrote:
Read Cam Wurf own wind tunnel testing and there are barely any instances where deep wheels are an advantage and that wasn't factoring in Kona. The deeper the wheel it is only in strong gusts I find it can be sketchy. The number of times I've ridden home and am sitting up relaxed on the bars and the wind rushes between high rise apartments where I live on the beach and almost sends me to the pavement but if you have ok bike skills and are actually riding your bike you learn to handle gusts easy enough.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Interview/Cam_Wurf_ain_t_scared_to_throw_down_6659.html


Huh sorry I don’t understand-are you saying deep wheels are a con? But u have a set-just for asthetics?
I have every wheel and yes I now feel conned after having ridden them. I bought my stinger 9 about five years ago but haven't ridden it for several years.
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Re: What depth front wheel [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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dunno wrote:
I'm about to buy a new set of wheels and have never had anything over a 50mm on the front and was thinking about buying a set of 81mm front and rear. Thoughts-is it really that much of an issue in gusty wind? Ive never really had a problem with the 50mm

You'll find that with a deeper dish wheel you will get more movement in higher winds, but it's something that you will adjust to. At first it may be alarming, but I've been racing in really strong crosswinds with disc/808 and yeah I got a pushed around a bit, but I didn't end up in a ditch or anything. Bodyweight plays a part i.e lighter people are going to get pushed around more, but also I think bike skills play a part too. I've heard of people getting blown off the road, how much of that is panic/poor bike control? Personally I'd opt to go as deep as possible and learn how to ride it, learn it's nuances especially in adverse conditions.
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Re: What depth front wheel [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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zedzded wrote:
dunno wrote:
I'm about to buy a new set of wheels and have never had anything over a 50mm on the front and was thinking about buying a set of 81mm front and rear. Thoughts-is it really that much of an issue in gusty wind? Ive never really had a problem with the 50mm


You'll find that with a deeper dish wheel you will get more movement in higher winds, but it's something that you will adjust to. At first it may be alarming, but I've been racing in really strong crosswinds with disc/808 and yeah I got a pushed around a bit, but I didn't end up in a ditch or anything. Bodyweight plays a part i.e lighter people are going to get pushed around more, but also I think bike skills play a part too. I've heard of people getting blown off the road, how much of that is panic/poor bike control? Personally I'd opt to go as deep as possible and learn how to ride it, learn it's nuances especially in adverse conditions.


Thanks-thoughts on above post and wether the wheels are a con? I’m now wondering if it’s better to just save my money..
Last edited by: dunno: Mar 15, 18 23:54
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Re: What depth front wheel [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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dunno wrote:
zedzded wrote:
dunno wrote:
I'm about to buy a new set of wheels and have never had anything over a 50mm on the front and was thinking about buying a set of 81mm front and rear. Thoughts-is it really that much of an issue in gusty wind? Ive never really had a problem with the 50mm


You'll find that with a deeper dish wheel you will get more movement in higher winds, but it's something that you will adjust to. At first it may be alarming, but I've been racing in really strong crosswinds with disc/808 and yeah I got a pushed around a bit, but I didn't end up in a ditch or anything. Bodyweight plays a part i.e lighter people are going to get pushed around more, but also I think bike skills play a part too. I've heard of people getting blown off the road, how much of that is panic/poor bike control? Personally I'd opt to go as deep as possible and learn how to ride it, learn it's nuances especially in adverse conditions.


Thanks-thoughts on above post and wether the wheels are a con? I’m now wondering if it’s better to just save my money..

IMO, there is no one thing in triathlon/cycling that gives you significant performance gains. Lots of little incremental gains that add up to a decent amount. Aero bars, helmet, bike fit, speedsuit, wheels, tyres etc. You will be quicker with deeper dish wheels. I'm not sure what Shambolic's point was, but if you look at a pair of Zipp 808s - $3K yeah you could say that is a con in that you you're not getting that much of a performance increase vs the amount of $$ you've spent. I would shop around and have a look at the 2nd hand market, lots of decent near new kit going for a song. Re handling, I know lots of small/light people riding deep dish wheels with no problem. Melinda Carfrae is 5'2 50kg dripping wet and has ridden 808s at Kona before.
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Re: What depth front wheel [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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Everything has pros and cons. Just remember we are very far into the life cycle of triathlon specific equipment, and differences are marginal, there is no "this one is always faster in any condition". One aero helmet might be a little quicker, but has less ventilation. One tire might be faster, but has less flat protection. And one wheelset might be more aero, but less stable in the wind.

How good or bad or stable a front wheel is in the wind depends largely on the wind angle. And depending on where you expect the wind to come from, and how strong it will be, you could make a point that for this specific race maybe the hassle with deeper wheels is not worth it, and chose to go for shallower ones. It doesn't change the fact that overall and in general deeper high quality wheels are faster than shallower high quality wheels. Its not that all starters in Kona are stupid and take deep 80mm wheels, and only Wurf is smart....

Just like Sebastian Kienle went to Kona with a road aero helmet (Scott Cadence), knowing it costs him 2 Watts over a his real TT helmet (Scott Split) but he weight the better cooling effect higher than 2 Watts for his overall performance. Doesnt change the fact that in general a real TT helmet is always faster.

If you want a deep wheel and are worried about stability, there is a certain manufacturer who offers a wheelset for just that, for only the costs of a used car! =)
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Re: What depth front wheel [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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There is absolutely benefit to deeper wheels. But, there is also a point of diminishing returns. Maybe that is around 60mm, where going 10mm deeper does not gain as much as losing 10mm. I started with 90mm rear and 60mm front. Those were great. No issues with handling. So, I sold them and now I ride 90mm front and disc rear. These are my daily and race wheels. If you have had no problems with a 50mm in front, then I would not hesitate to go all in to a 90mm up front.
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Re: What depth front wheel [exxxviii] [ In reply to ]
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Like you I've gone the 60/90 route and then moved to the 90/disc.

Personally I cannot detect any speed difference between a 60 or 90 front but will normally choose the 90 on a course that is more out in the open, or when my GF is using my 60.
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Re: What depth front wheel [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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If deeper was so much better then Zipp would still be making a 1080.
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Re: What depth front wheel [turningscrews] [ In reply to ]
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turningscrews wrote:
If deeper was so much better then Zipp would still be making a 1080.

I was under the impression that the cancelation of the 1080 was a factor of the new bullet shape (with the 808 Firecrest being faster than the old 1080), cost of new molds, and expected sales, not depth alone.

That said, if one looks at FLO's time saving chart, 90's are 1 second faster in a 40k and 7 seconds faster in 112 miles than the 60s. I have seen many 35-40k time trials that were won by less than 1 second. I don't know enough about fulls to know if 7 seconds matters. My guess is probably not.
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Re: What depth front wheel [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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Use a disc on the rear.
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Re: What depth front wheel [turningscrews] [ In reply to ]
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I cannot comment on the 1080 because they don't make them in 650's and I'll never have a chance to try one.
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Re: What depth front wheel [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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There are lots of other things to consider:
- How big are you? Bigger/stronger people typically have a bit better luck than smaller people with very deep front wheels
- How skilled are you regarding bike handling in general? More experienced riders usually have fewer issues with deeper wheels (except perhaps in a wind storm .. )
- The shape of the wheel. Various wheels, even of the same depth, have different handling characteristics in the wind because they vary in shape and those shapes interact with the wind very differently
- Frame/fork geometry. Some bikes are just inherently more stable than others with any front wheel
- What wheel will you be using on the rear? Using a disc or a deeper wheel on the rear (deeper than the front) can make it much easier to handle a deep rim on the front (the weather-vane effect)

There are other things too.

Don't decide just on what depth to use. Decide on what specific wheelset or wheeset brand you think you want to zero in on. Indicate your size and experience and other info and then I think that you can get even better feedback about your wheel selection here.

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Re: What depth front wheel [turningscrews] [ In reply to ]
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turningscrews wrote:
If deeper was so much better then Zipp would still be making a 1080.

Well no that’s wrong. They don’t make the 1080 due to how the firecrest is shaped. It would be too wide of a wheel to get that depth to work. Since the FC 808 came out it was faster than 1080, they discontinued the building of the 1080 as it wouldn’t fit a bike.

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Re: What depth front wheel [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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dunno wrote:
Thoughts-is it really that much of an issue in gusty wind? Ive never really had a problem with the 50mm

The thing that makes a deeper rim hard to control is when the leading section experiences a lift force, and the back one doesn't. If the gust hits just right, you can lose control of the bike. The new rim shapes mitigate this pretty well since the leading and trailing sections are shaped similarly. If the wind pushes the whole rim sideways, this is much easier to control.

One thing I didn't see mentioned is the shape/size of the tire. There may be some rims that have a different ideal setup, but I think for this issue it's optimal to have the tire with good aero properties, that is no wider than the brake tracks. I'm using a cheap generic Chinese rim that's 86mm deep and 29mm wide at the widest point, and the brake tracks are 25mm at the narrowest spot. The *old* 23mm Conti SS I use measures 23mm wide. In strong crosswind gusts it behaves very well. I feel a sideways push but usually no scary steering of the bike at all.
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Re: What depth front wheel [FatandSlow] [ In reply to ]
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I also used Flos. Barts to convince myself to move from 80 to 60. The only marginal improvement in aerodynamics is at high yaw which is same as heavy cross wind. That is also exactly when I don’t like to have a deep wheel since it does put alot of stress on lower back etc to stay steady. I am quite convinced that the more relaxed riding with a 60mm wastes less energy and outweighs the very minimal aero benefit of the 80mm.
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Re: What depth front wheel [joafr339] [ In reply to ]
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Deeper wheels tend to perform better at higher yaw angles, but that's when they're harder to control. Besides a rear disc wheel usually gives stability.

So, the "correct" answer will be: use the deepest wheels you can safely control. In my case 60/disc.
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Re: What depth front wheel [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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I was just starting your thought process 'am I going to really get advantage from deeper wheels?' No one here has also eluded to the fact that if you are a fast athlete you will get greater advantages with a deeper front purely based on the fact that aerodynamic benefits become greater with speed. So depending on you bike prowess gains may not be so great. If you really want a deeper set then do it but who knows a good set of tubes and tyres and a aero helmet or a good tri suit may net greater gains and be cheaper.
Last edited by: Shambolic: Mar 17, 18 14:45
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Re: What depth front wheel [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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I have one bike with 88 front and back. They work really good for the most part. But if you are going to race hilly courses Wisconsin, Hawaii cross winds will blow you off course on the down hills. Not fun having to brake to straighten bike out. Flat, rollers no problem going down problem. More and more pro’s going to smaller front wheels in Hawaii. I got a 50 just for Hawaii.
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Re: What depth front wheel [rhudson] [ In reply to ]
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rhudson wrote:
I have one bike with 88 front and back. They work really good for the most part. But if you are going to race hilly courses Wisconsin, Hawaii cross winds will blow you off course on the down hills. Not fun having to brake to straighten bike out. Flat, rollers no problem going down problem. More and more pro’s going to smaller front wheels in Hawaii. I got a 50 just for Hawaii.

Why is going down more of a problem, just because you have more speed? I train on 80mm wheels and the only times I've had some serious control issues was going downhill. I was sitting on the brakes and was still getting knocked about.
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Re: What depth front wheel [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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zedzded wrote:
rhudson wrote:
I have one bike with 88 front and back. They work really good for the most part. But if you are going to race hilly courses Wisconsin, Hawaii cross winds will blow you off course on the down hills. Not fun having to brake to straighten bike out. Flat, rollers no problem going down problem. More and more pro’s going to smaller front wheels in Hawaii. I got a 50 just for Hawaii.


Why is going down more of a problem, just because you have more speed? I train on 80mm wheels and the only times I've had some serious control issues was going downhill. I was sitting on the brakes and was still getting knocked about.

That's what happens when you steal a chopper...
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Re: What depth front wheel [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
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zedzded wrote:
rhudson wrote:
I have one bike with 88 front and back. They work really good for the most part. But if you are going to race hilly courses Wisconsin, Hawaii cross winds will blow you off course on the down hills. Not fun having to brake to straighten bike out. Flat, rollers no problem going down problem. More and more pro’s going to smaller front wheels in Hawaii. I got a 50 just for Hawaii.


Why is going down more of a problem, just because you have more speed? I train on 80mm wheels and the only times I've had some serious control issues was going downhill. I was sitting on the brakes and was still getting knocked about.

its a fair question - i believe it is true that crosswinds with a deep front are more of an issue when descending but i'm not clear why...
more speed means the effective wind angle is less so from that perspective means cross winds should be less of an issue
its certainly more unnerving when you feel a loss of control at speed but i feel like i do actually get affected more, not just worry about it more
possibly the body position descending is less stable - less weight on the front?
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Re: What depth front wheel [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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i think some of this is not what could you ride but what will you be able to ride confidently. i used to have 90, now ride an old style Flo 60 and wouldn't go back. The 90 was a hard wheel to live with on a daily basis.
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