Are we ever going to get this forum's discussion back to triathlon?

We've spent weeks arguing who is right and who is wrong and no one is changing their thoughts one iota. All that is happening is people who used to talk civily about triathlons are calling each other names and getting nowhere.

Francois, I'm not trying to single anyone out. I'm just getting tired of the "war" threads staying on the top of the discussion board and all of the "tri" threads getting pushed further and further to the bottom.

Let's all relax a little bit and hopefully get in a nice long relaxing ride this weekend. Maybe if we all ride/run until we puke we'll forget about our different views on the war and remember why we all come here

TRIATHLON

Sorry for the rant.

With all due respect, what did you expect the liberation of the Iraqi people to look like? War is ugly business. We can only hope and pray that civilian casualties are kept to a minimum.

Ok, I'll bite. What you are seeing right now is the culmination of a decade + of bad decisions by Iraq's leadership. Your poor excuse for commentary serves no purpose here except to incite heated argument that has nothing to do with our sport. Your comment will look foolish and ignorant in the light of the eventual results of this conflict. That, I can guarantee you.

Stepping down from my high horse now....

Francois, apparently you missed all of the coverage about the liberation of Sawfan this morning, where the Iraqi people are dancing in the streets, tearing down Saddam's pictures and thanking their liberators. Here are just a handful of quotes I came accross: "Americans very good," Ali Khemy said. "Iraq wants to be free. Some chanted, "Ameriki! Ameriki!" Many others in the starving town just patted their stomachs and raised their hands, begging for food. A man identifying himself only as Abdullah welcomed the arrival of the U.S. troops: "Saddam Hussein is no good. Saddam Hussein a butcher."

Of course, you are watching CNN...

Does this mean that the US is now going to enforce all UN resolutions? This war is because of resolution 1441, right?



Also, while this is a triathlon forum, war is possibly more important.



Richard Robinson

Yesterday, I rode 235km and thought about war a great deal. Can't really say it left my mind.
I noticed once more with TriBriGuy that none of the pro war people on this forum (except a few) have been able to express their opinion without calling someone foolish, ignorant, or whatever...
You should try, we could then have a courteous discussion although my guess is that you just don't want anyone arguing with you, period.

Yes, I am sure that many iraqis will be happy to be freed of saddam. however, the way it's done in baghdad by the so-called surgical strikes is going to create more terrorism (otherwise why would the FBI want to interview some 11,000 iraqis living in the US...)

I was just pointing out that the strikes are not surgical...at best middle-age surgical, although, this was expected.

[reply]Your comment will look foolish and ignorant in the light of the eventual results of this conflict. That, I can guarantee you.[/reply]

I feel a little nervous making this my first post on this triathlon site, but I feel I have to bite on this one. You have no idea how this will turn out - so how can you guarantee anything?

I have trouble believing anything that remotely resembles a best case scenario can result from this. Like Francois, this is something that hangs over me all the time. I hope it is over as quickly and peacefully as possible for both sides.

Everyone will have to live with the consequences of what is happening now for decades to come - how can that be a good thing?

Nick

Francois,

don't know if your post was directed at me or not, but I didn't even bring up my views of the war, nor will I. Also, I don't remember calling anyone foolish or ignorant. I wasn't trying to attack you, if you took it that way, whatever, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. I don't want to start a fight with anyone, just trying to point out that these discussions turn ugly pretty quickly and may end up dividing people who have had a lot in common.

an exchange in the wake of a bombing from Tom Clancy's Clear and Present Danger comes to mind:

President: "I thought this was supposed to be a surgical strike!?"

Respondent: "What did you expect, sir? We used a bomb."

The point being that there a competing interests here: precision vs. risk. Unless we want to put our troops even more in harm's way for the sake of a more precise use of force, then a less discriminate use of force (e.g., bombing) is necessary to minimize loss of life on our side. This is not a pro- or anti-war stance, merely an observation. In discussing the application of force, as opposed to whether or not its use is justified, I am firmly on the side of using force in a way ensures the fewest American casualites.

and that is an undisputed fact! I doubt that our bombs will kill 200,000 innocent civilians! He specifically targeted civilians (men, women and children) and wiped out entire villages with chemical attacks. He is a butcher and a murderer and the world will be better off without him. Ask the Iraqi people.

If you don't think he is a threat, what do you think he was developing weapons of mass destruction for? He has used them and would use them again. 80% of the Iraqi people want him gone! There is no doubt that he has and was developing chemical and biological weapons. Why do you think he refused to cooperate with the weapons inspectors. If you call what we got cooperation, then you obviously have not read the reports. Luckily, his troops are so disloyal and hate him so much that they haven't used them against us yet.

Bring on the shock and awe! There will be Iraqi citizens celebrating in the streets before long and I will be celebrating too. Not for the deaths but for the releif from great oppression and removal of a great threat to mankind (not just the US).

In the end, information will come out to prove that we were right. I hope we killed that $%^% already!

Nuf said.........

War is terrible, it is horrible.

It also has stopped the Holocost, Slavery, gotten rid of Hitler, and plenty of other people and things that have no business on this earth.

I don't want our troops to die, nor innocent civilians to be killed, but I think it is necessary. And all that smoke may be from MILITARY targets, we don't know. it may be from homes. We don't know.

  Francois, I have read and value your tri-related opinions. You definitely know what you are talking about there. You should stick to it rather than trolling for arguments. I'd much rather discuss the pros/cons of race wheels or PCs.

However, I said foolish and ignorant because it is true. Your original post implied that the U.S. military and its allies are conducting indiscriminate carpet bombing campaigns similar to WWII with no regard for the safety of Iraqi women and children. This is patently false and serves only to incite argument. As a U.S. military member, and a leader in those forces, I speak with some degree of veracity on such things. With the exception of well known, publicized and WRONG rogue elements acting against orders and regulations, the U.S. military does NOT attack or condone attacks against civilians. The overriding ethos of U.S. military action is "destroy only what is necessary to accomplish the mission." For you to suggest otherwise IS ignorant.

It is not that I don't want anyone arguing with me. I rather welcome intelligent discourse. I used "ignorant" not derogatorily, but as an accurate description. I am ignorant of much in this world. But I have to shed light of knowlege on ignorance when I see it. You do the same, I'm sure. If you are relying on any journalism related to this event to be accurate and free of errors, you are making a grave error. This is a journalistic world that has known for months that military action was likely to happen, yet still doesn't know nor care for the difference between a tank and an armored personnel carrier. The constant stream of ignorance issuing forth from CNN and the rest astounds me. It only serves to reinforce the public-at-large's ignorance. (I used IGNORANCE, meaning lack of knowlege, NOT STUPIDITY, which would be wrong of me to use.)

Enough!....back to the tri stuff. Francois, care to join me?

"Enough!....back to the tri stuff. Francois, care to join me? "

I have to agree. We'll have to let history be the judge of this event.

That's right back to Tri stuff.

... so a horse, Taku, Tom Demerly, and a one-legged hooker walk into a bar ...

I, at least, understand what you meant by calling Francois ignorant, but, just out of curiosity, what did mean when you called him "foolish?" Seems pretty close to "stupid" to me. Of course, "close" only works in horseshoes and...well, maybe I'll just leave it at horseshoes.

Gee, Francois. I gave a very thoughtful, fact filled response to you yesterday, but you just ignored it.

On the other hand, if I did a 235 km ride yesterday, I wouldn't have been able to give you that response. I guess you are ahead of me a bit. Well, maybe about three hours/IM.

Still thinking in Florida,

Without getting into anything about the current war, the comment about Dresden is just plain silly. Hopefully you just want to express your dismay at the bombing of a city.

If you truly think this resembles Dresden in any meaningful way, a quick read of the history would be eye opening. A more current handling of the topic can be found in today's copy of the London newspaper, The Independent, which is available online. Read the bombing article in the editorial section. It is a fair, critical article.

My French is appalling, but I think even Le Monde's coverage of the bombing goes nowhere close to comparing it to Dresden.

[reply] A more current handling of the topic can be found in today's copy of the London newspaper, The Independent, which is available online. Read the bombing article in the editorial section. It is a fair, critical article.[/reply]

Tom - just curious - trying to find this article. www.independent.co.uk right? All I can find is an editorial discussing the motives behind current events, not the way it is being carried out.

Thanks,
Nick

actually, I didn't ignore it. I thought it was the most thoughtful post put there.
I didn't agree entirely with it, and thought the comment "I will not visit france anymore" or something like that, very odd.

Tyrius also made some thoughtful comments without insults.

As for TriBriguy, I don't really agree with the ignorant thing...as it is essentially a matter of interpretation from what information the gov. let filter through...
as for foolish.

Yes the bombing of Baghdad is far from Dresden. Yes, I said that deliberatly to be provocative. However in terms of who has been calling others name, as a (still) french citizen, I have had my share on this forum, and think I am a few lengths behind many here...so I allowed myself that comment :-)
thanks for your understanding...

Like most Americans, I believe in redemption. I may desire to visit France again at some point, but it is important that actions have consequences. France's behavior toward Iraq has been inexcusable for some time. I can't do much, but will avoid France and French products until the behavior changes. I don't urge others to do the same. They can think for themselves.

I would like to avoid Chinese products too, but that is very tough. You never know about their products. They sneak in where you never expect.

As a French citizen, I hope you can make a small contribution to changing your country's behavior. I think France can find a better president than a guy who needs to stay elected or stay in jail. A country has no honor if they knowingly select a leader with no honor. As an American, I speak from recent experience.

OK, maybe you need to understand the voting process in France.
Two rounds: first x candidates go. Everyone above 18, french citizen, can vote. If someone gets the absolute majority, he/she wins. Else second round with the first 2 candidates.
Last elections were a bit of a shock. Because so many were running for presidents, some votes that were supposed to go to Jospin were lost to him and as a consequence, Le Pen was second (and trust me, Chirac is much better...). Then Chirac won with an overwhelming majority.
Now, you can argue that this voting process sucks. However, a very famous result due to Arrow states that to aggregate individual preferences into a global one (a vote), following 4 axioms of rationality (that everyone agrees on), then the only way to do so is to have a uniqe person decide for you (a dictator)...now that's very intriguing but this explains why there are so many different voting processes...
I am sure considering what happened at your last elections, you will agree that your system is not perfect either.

That explains why Chirac was elected in 2001 whereas many predicted Jospin before the first round. Now, the french gov. has sold weapons to iraq. so has the US. the french gov. has made deals with the iraqi gov. probably that we are not aware of. But, then 70% of the oil in the US comes from Iraq...The only perspective you get of the french gov. actions are those that are said by the american medias (and that have been already edited by the american gov.)
Then watch the European news (not the french ones, the euro ones) and you see a very different picture.
When I watch the news, because the US offers so many channels, I am quite happy to be able to have a euro perspective, an american perspective...then listening to all of this, anyone smart enough will figure out that the truth is in the middle...

Now, your attitude to blame all the french for the choice of the leader and "punish" them with a boycott is quite "interesting"...If we all start doing this, we might as well stay home and avoid any contact...
I will boycott all american products because the Bush adm. doesn't give a rat's ass about the environment (now anyone who will come forward and pretend this is not true would have quite some big cojones...), and also because the CIA put SH in the first place in Iraq
I will boycott all british products because of the mess between Israel and Palestine.
I will boycott all german products because I am not over with the war yet
I will boycott all the chinese products because their gov violates human rights everyday...
I will boycott Australia because so far John Howard has refused to say sorry to the aborigenes.
...I guess, there will be noone left.

You can have the attitude to say "boycott the french for this and that that the gov. did" but, imho, it's not justified. Most people in France are like you. they want to get on with their lives, they have a president, and during elections the main points are homeland security, will there be tax cuts, increase in education budget, and more jobs.

As a french citizen, I do not have to change my country's behavior. I live in the US. my research interests are pattern recognition, image processing and decision making applied to homeland security...YOUR homeland security...so when I keep reading about the french, and the boycott, yes I get upset, yes I take it personnally despite really not being pro french, but because I think that coming from a country where the gov. is ruining the atmosphere really fast (you know that air we breath when we train...) it's quite a joke.

Here is my two cents on boycotts:

We, the inhabitants of this Earth, have not seen a major World War in over a half-century. I beleive one of the largest contributing factors is the increased global economy. No country can survive in today's economy being an island unto themselves. The "wars" we have seen in the most recent 50 years have been small in comparison to either of the two World Wars. I feel this is a good thing.

Good or bad, love 'em or hate 'em, France, Germany et. al. have made their decisions. Let us pretend that a large scale boycott by American consumers would have a serious impact on the dissenting countries economies. Thus, the governments of those countries ignored the voices of their own people and went along with the U.S. This would give the United States de facto control of a foriegn government.

Yes, the scenario in the above paragraph could have positive consequences, such as trying to improve China's human rights.

Just my thoughts. Back to studying for finals (ugh!).

Brett

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"Du or Du not-there is no Tri" - Yoda

I can understand your reaction to my personal boycott. I will not intellectually defend it, because it admittedly rests on pretty slender logic. I don't urge others to do the same since the case is not persuasive. Still, I am ticked and not buying French products is my right and I will exercise it. I am not sure I buy any French products normally anyway.

Your statement that the US gets 70% of its oil from Iraq is just silly. Do some fact checking. We suck down about 20 MM barrels of oil a day in this country. If we took the entire Iraq production that would be a little more than 5% of our needs. In fact we get little or no oil from Iraq. I am sure it has nothing to do with principle, just logistics. It is easier for us to get oil from Mexico and Venezula.

I totally disagree with your environmental statements about this country, but that takes us too far afield so I won't go there. I guess I have big cojones.

I do get my news from a wide variety of publications including many in England. I get my facts straight. I note that you never disputed anything in my original post other than my personal boycott.

Yes, I do understand the voting process in France. Jospin cut a pretty sad figure and he came in third behind a flake. Still, he would have likely lost to Chirac. We had the same election here. Dole lost to Clinton in '96. We fixed it four years later. Yes, I was one of the 537 votes in the margin of victory in Florida. Don't ever think your vote doesn't count.

What I can't figure out about you is how do you ride 150 miles in one day and not be wasted for three days afterwards? I guess it is a lot easier when you are 32 rather than 47. Or maybe it is the French wine, the French wife, and Evian. I am out of luck on all three now.

Francois: Yes, Dresden was over the top, but your sentiments are pursuasive. Americans are acting like drunken cowboys and the rest of the world is powerless to act in the face of such stupidity. SH is a brutal dictator, but that has never been the basis upon which we select our friends or wars. We have supported, funded, and died for quite a few brutal dictators in the past. Why is SH so special that it is NOW our duty to send Americans to the Middle East to die? This war is about oil and Bush's re-election, not about ridding the world of yet another tyrant. If SH were such a serious threat to other nations, those other nations would have been clamoring at the U.N. for this invasion. But, no, instead of the slow, peaceful route, the American cowboys must show what intemperate bullies they are. This is the way of American culture, arguments are settled at the OK Corral, not with reason and compassion. It infuses everything in our lives-our movies, literature, art, food. Ever eat at Roy Rogers' "restaurants"? :) This war will have the same impact on the world's digestive tract as a dinner at Roy's.

Anyway, don't be loathe to needle the addlepated sheep who blindly follow our bush league President.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank