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Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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I race in SoCal almost every weekend. I see every cocky triathlete in Southern California who thinks he's good on the bike come out to a crit at some point or another. It's a load of fun to watch. :-)

But hey, you do a group ride once in a while with some Cat 1's and 2's (as though guys who are racing cat 4 don't)... :-)

There's so much more to racing than a lot of you guys think (even at the lowly cat 4 level).
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Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [Canadian] [ In reply to ]
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I must be missing something too! I'm with JustinD. I'm about 3.6w/kg right now and there is NO WAY I could go 55mins for a 40k. Was there a tail wind?
How much do you weigh? Is your weight higher than mine equating to a much higher overall wattage? On a flat course w/kg doesn't matter as much. At 245W I'm at 3.6w/kg


Weight is a big part of the picture - at 90kg 3w/kg is ok power. But aero is the main part of the equation here and I do a lot better on that. The winds on that day added ~1min. Tom A and RChung have given plenty of advice you can use for self improvement on aero - which is the only way to get significant gains.
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Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [NateC] [ In reply to ]
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But hey, you do a group ride once in a while with some Cat 1's and 2's (as though guys who are racing cat 4 don't)... :-)

every week!
you should have seen me draft amy marsh then crush her up the hill at 71 and bee caves

she didn't know I was racing but that is half the battle ... lololol

thanks to the guy offering the renn disc, now who has a front disc I can use?



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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I must be missing something too! I'm with JustinD. I'm about 3.6w/kg right now and there is NO WAY I could go 55mins for a 40k. Was there a tail wind?
How much do you weigh? Is your weight higher than mine equating to a much higher overall wattage? On a flat course w/kg doesn't matter as much. At 245W I'm at 3.6w/kg


Weight is a big part of the picture - at 90kg 3w/kg is ok power. But aero is the main part of the equation here and I do a lot better on that. The winds on that day added ~1min. Tom A and RChung have given plenty of advice you can use for self improvement on aero - which is the only way to get significant gains.

Any posts in particular that you'd recommend? I searched aero in the search bar but that entails just about every post on ST. :-)


Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling
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Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [Canadian] [ In reply to ]
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Do you have any pics of your legs at top/bottom of the pedal stroke? It appears to me that your hip angle is severely closed and you may benefit from raising your set and/or getting shorter cranks.
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Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [TriSmarter] [ In reply to ]
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You hit the nail on the head. It was a comment I was going to make earlier that we ought to be discussing W/CdA for triathletes (vs W/Kg). Trouble is, most folks out there don't have a clue what their CdA is and wouldn't know how to go finding it outside of an expensive trip to a wind tunnel. Everyone has a scale, though.

That's why some of these people with relatively low W/Kg figures can go so well on the bike. The bigger guys will have more absolute power to play with, so if they are reasonably aero, they'll kill a little 135 lb 5W/Kg pipsqueak. But remember, in triathlon...those big guys then have to haul their 180+ lbs around a run course. There are very few fast big guy runners out there.

Thats why Cancellara is killing everyone on the TTs but isn't (yet?) a real threat for a grand tour GC. He puts out massive power and is super aerodynamic. That makes for fast TTs. But he's enough heavier than most of the GC guys that they kill him with superior W/Kg when the road heads seriously up.
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Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [Canadian] [ In reply to ]
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learn a bit about the process in this thread (and wade through a lot of fluff)
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...t_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

then search 'chung method' and 'field testing' to expand the picture.

As a hint - ducking your head would be *very* worthwhile to work on. Changing extensions may make it easier to do so but that can only be determined by experimentation.
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Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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That's why some of these people with relatively low W/Kg figures can go so well on the bike. The bigger guys will have more absolute power to play with, so if they are reasonably aero, they'll kill a little 135 lb 5W/Kg pipsqueak. But remember, in triathlon...those big guys then have to haul their 180+ lbs around a run course. There are very few fast big guy runners out there.

ding ding ding!



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [Pantelones] [ In reply to ]
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Do you have any pics of your legs at top/bottom of the pedal stroke? It appears to me that your hip angle is severely closed and you may benefit from raising your set and/or getting shorter cranks.

Here's the best I have. Sorry about the head down thing.




Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling
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Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [Canadian] [ In reply to ]
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I am at 3.9 w/kg right now, and usually place top 10 locally, but get blown out on the bike at anything nationally. Managed a Clearwater rolldown slot last year, but I would say an average bike time. I only train about 3-4 hours a week on the bike for that number, very focused consistent training, but that is what I have to give right now with 2 kids at home. I would think that a lot higher number would be needed to be a top age grouper. I have a pretty good swim/run, hope to bring the bike up to balance these for short course racing next 2-3 years. One things I do have to say is that I don't believe 10 hours per week is needed to achieve 4.0, I haven't put in more than 4 hours for past several years and have seen significant improvement with my cycling over that time. Have a ways to go, but volume is not always the answer. I think a lot of people dawdle in their training and don't see improvement because their training lacks progression and consistency.

Daryl
http://www.advantagemultisport.com
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Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [NateC] [ In reply to ]
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>>I see every cocky triathlete in Southern California who thinks he's good on the bike come out to a crit at some point or another. It's a load of fun to watch. :-)

Funny, in Northern Cal we say the same thing about SoCal roadies when they show up at our road races.

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Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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I believe it.

SoCal is the Crit Kingdom.
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Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [NateC] [ In reply to ]
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Well, it shows, since they're pretty good at it too. Glad it's not my bag.
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Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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At the last road race I did down here there was *almost* a crash cause we rode past a tree, 2 miles later there was a crash because there was a palm tree leaf in the gutter

Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com
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Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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Hey now, I didn't say anything.

Although the SoCal definition of 'bad weather' is relative. (3, 2, 1 for Roady to chime in on what really 'bad' weather is)
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Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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What race was that?
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Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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At the last road race I did down here there was *almost* a crash cause we rode past a tree, 2 miles later there was a crash because there was a palm tree leaf in the gutter


sounds delightful
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Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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'bad' weather is ...


any and all precipitation, including sprinkler overspray onto the course, that counts too
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Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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Given that you rode strongly at Rotorua and say you can sustain a high proportion of FTP for a long time - I suspect that you haven't done yourself justice with your ftp testing. Looking at your position I'd have expected a 3w/kg just to ride your IM time.

Thanks for the feedback. Did you mean 3w/kg during the IM, or 3w/kg FTP?

Next time I'll test my FTP at the bike track rather than on my indoor trainer, that will take me overheating and possible non zeroing of the Powertap out of the equation.

Are you still doing bike fitting? If so, do you do mountain bike fitting?
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Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [NoBrakes] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the feedback. Did you mean 3w/kg during the IM, or 3w/kg FTP?

Next time I'll test my FTP at the bike track rather than on my indoor trainer, that will take me overheating and possible non zeroing of the Powertap out of the equation.

Are you still doing bike fitting? If so, do you do mountain bike fitting?

3w/kg for IM. You will 'gain' a lot of power doing it outside

Yes I'm still doing fits. I don't do MTB so often (full disclosure and all) but the principles I use apply very well there and have yielded good results.
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Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Let's do some figgerin'...

The average healthy but sedentary, college-aged male has a VO2max of approximately 45 mL/min/kg. However, I have seen it argued based on studies of, e.g., aboriginal tribes (and there are population data from Europe as well as military inductees here in the US to suppor the conclusion) that the "default" VO2max of the average human male is closer to 50 mL/min/kg, and the only way to get below this is to assume a couch-potato lifestyle, gain excess weight, etc. (and/or grow old, of course). So, I'll go with that latter number.

With short-term training, VO2max increases by 15-25% on average, with another perhaps 5-10% possible (on average, anyway) with more prolonged and/or intense training. That gives a total increase of 20-35%, so I'll go with 30% just for argument's sake.

So, if VO2max is, on average, 50 mL/min/kg and increases by, on average, 30%, that means that the average Joe ought to be able to raise their VO2max to about 65 mL/min/kg with training. Indeed, there are many, many, many, MANY amateur endurance athletes with VO2max values of around that number (not to mention the fact that athletes in team sports with an endurance component - e.g., soccer - often have a VO2max of around 60 mL/min/kg, something that is also true in other sports that you don't normally consider to be of an endurance nature, e.g., downhill skiing or motocross - i.e., motorcycle - racing).

The question then becomes, how high might functional threshold power fall as a percentage of VO2max (again, on average), and what does this translate to in terms of a power output? The answer to the former is about 80% (LT, on average, being about 75% of VO2max in trained cyclists), which means that in terms of O2 consumption, a functional threshold power corresponding to a VO2 of 65 mL/min/kg * 0.80 = 52 mL/min/kg could be considered average. If you then assume an average cycling economy of 0.075 W/min/kg per mL/min/kg, this equates to...

3.9 W/kg

Can you define what you mean by "short-term training" and "prolonged and/or intense training"?

Assuming someone follows the principals from your book, how long is "short-term" and how long is "prolonged"? I've read it takes 7-10 years of consistant training for an endurance athlete to reach their true peak. Would you agree with this?

And just so I'm clear... I'm strictly speaking averages here.

Thanks


Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling
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Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [TriSmarter] [ In reply to ]
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I would agree with you that it does take a very lean "larger" athlete to achieve 4.0w/kg, but the smaller guys can usually get there fairly easily with some consistant dedicated training. Im 6'2" and ~170 so I am really happy when I reach 4.2-4.3. Mostly this is because I am that light, which means I'll climb better and run better. There are a lot of kids who just get a little training in and they are at 5.0w/kg because they weigh 135lbs.

But I feel the most important thing is aerodynamics (W/CdA) for bike performance in triathlon. I have rolled a 53:xx 40k at 300w on an aluminum bike with tufos for tires (if I only would have run vittorias). I don't understand why guys focus so much w/kg in triathlon. Most tris have limited climbing on the bike anyway. The most that I have had is 1500' and I was still right about an hour.


Coming to this late, but the best reason to focus on Watts/kg for triathlon even though many courses are flat, is because if you can get lean enough to jack up your watts per kg, for a fixed CdA, while you may not bike that much faster, you're sure to run faster.

Dev
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Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [Canadian] [ In reply to ]
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What about the average Joe-womens?


-----

"Alice laughed. `There's no use trying,' she said 'one can't believe impossible things.' `I daresay you haven't had much practice,' said the Queen. `When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!'"
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Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [FeltLikeTriing] [ In reply to ]
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What about the average Joe-womens?


+1 - Some of us average Jane's would like to know.

If we substitute some common numbers given for avg. vo2 for women *assume avg vo2 for women = 38 * in AC's calculations I get: 3.3 w/kg.

Sound about right? Does that mean if you are over 3.3 then you are above average in terms of power?
Last edited by: Neka: Aug 27, 10 9:44
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Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [Neka] [ In reply to ]
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3.47 is equivalent to 4.0 on the power profiling chart

Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com
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