Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 10 11:50

Post #51 of 139 (33002 views)

I would agree with you that it does take a very lean "larger" athlete to achieve 4.0w/kg, but the smaller guys can usually get there fairly easily with some consistant dedicated training. Im 6'2" and ~170 so I am really happy when I reach 4.2-4.3. Mostly this is because I am that light, which means I'll climb better and run better. There are a lot of kids who just get a little training in and they are at 5.0w/kg because they weigh 135lbs.

But I feel the most important thing is aerodynamics (W/CdA) for bike performance in triathlon. I have rolled a 53:xx 40k at 300w on an aluminum bike with tufos for tires (if I only would have run vittorias). I don't understand why guys focus so much w/kg in triathlon. Most tris have limited climbing on the bike anyway. The most that I have had is 1500' and I was still right about an hour.

Seth Wilkie DPT, ACSM-HFS

Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]

justatest

May 18, 10 12:56

Post #52 of 139 (32958 views)

In Reply To:

"4W/Kg is more "average amateur" than "local pro" for a triathlete." Define "average" please.

"Average" is anyone slower than me of course ;)

I don't know, but I was around 4.5 W/Kg last year and while I'm usually top 20 in local races, I've never made top 10. Looking around me it seems 4 W/Kg is pretty common for serious triathletes. Although I can only guess, since I'm (or was) the only one with a powermeter around here. So I guess when I say "average", I mean for athletes that train somewhat seriously and have been doing so for several years.

Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 10 14:22

Post #53 of 139 (32889 views)

Bottom line: size matters, even on flat courses...when looking across the population as a whole, expressing power in W/kg is therefore more telling than expressing it as just W.

Agreed, with one caveat: in TT's the equation changes so that watts/square meter (surface area) becomes a greater factor than w/kg: myself @ 6'3, 95kg vs Joe Climber @ 5'10, 70kg: our surface area isn't that much different--maybe 10% or so all other factors being equal---especially in a TT position---and while we may have similar 3.6+ w/kgs, I'm putting out 90-100w more than Joe is; that 10% difference in drag coefficient isn't enough to makeup for the 90-100w less power Joe generates (on a flat course). Throw in anything more than rollers on a TT course & things will of course change.

____________
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." John Rogers

Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 10 14:42

Post #54 of 139 (32872 views)

In Reply To:

"4W/Kg is more "average amateur" than "local pro" for a triathlete."

Define "average" please. I'm a ~4W/Kg guy and I race elite/open state and local races to top-5 or better finishes. I raced to the 8th fastest bike split at a recent 1/2 IM. Certainly, there are stronger amateur triathlete cyclists out there....but they are few and far between these days. If that is your definition of "average"...then so be it.

I would put the "average joe" capability at less than 4W/kg, mostly because of how lean that usually means you have to be. Few "average joes" are going to be willing or able to get lean enough to max their W/Kg equation...but they may develop a fairly high absolute FTP figure that would serve them well in flatter races (as long as they are reasonably aerodynamic).

I will definitely agree that 4W/Kg is way low for "local pro"...unless we're talking about women. The few "local pro" triathlete types I've known were more in the 4.5W/Kg range if they had any kind of cycling ability. More if they wanted to be competitive in a strong pro field.

I mostly agree with ya, overall.

But - my FTP is right around 4-ish at the moment, and I managed to outsplit a local Pro on the bike at some event this past weekend.
(although that was likely more a function of my P4 vs. his C-dale road bike w/ clip-ons - not our relative w/Kg's)

float , hammer , and jog

Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 10 17:17

Post #55 of 139 (32794 views)

Jack I'm going to hire you to fit me on my bike because I am sitting around 3.9 right now and praying that I could hit those numbers! Seriously I think I need to up load some pics for you to look at and tell me what I am doing wrong!

Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [JustinD] [ In reply to ]

SeasonsChange

May 18, 10 17:18

Post #56 of 139 (32793 views)

post a picture of you and your set up.

Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [SeasonsChange] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 10 17:23

Post #57 of 139 (32784 views)

Ill put it up tonight, just as long as it doesnt get in the way of Lost!

Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 10 17:27

Post #58 of 139 (32777 views)

In Reply To:

at under 3watts/kg I did 1:04 last year, wasn't flat though, lot of turns too.

In Reply To:

If we're going to play that game
55.51 for 40km tt on 3.15 w/kg. Strong crosswinds (as in sitting up necessary when going past hedges) and a road so rough it barely qualified as paved (worth ~1.40 more than on a smooth road). one turn though.

Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 10 17:56

Post #59 of 139 (32759 views)

There are some impressive watts/kg being posted here. I'm not sure they can be based on the same FTP calculation protocol I am using (the one in Dr Coggan's book based on 20mins), or if I haven't calibrated my newly purchased Powertap and Garmin 500 or done myself justice in the FTP test. I consider myself quite close to front of pack in bike splits in tris but my recently measured FTP is only currently about 3.25w/kg in my off season. This moderate FTP doesn't seem to correlate with my results E.g 15th fastest bike split out of 546 competitors at HIM, 1:01 bike split in non drafting Oly tri, 59th fastest bike split out of ~1200 including pros at IMNZ. But, I do pay a lot of attention to the aerodynamics of my position and bike though, and can hold a high % of my FTP for a long time.
I'm pretty sure my competitive advantage comes from my aero position on the bike.

Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 10 18:23

Post #60 of 139 (32739 views)

excellent work cyclenutz

tell us of your good work on equipment choice and position!

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 10 18:56

Post #61 of 139 (32698 views)

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

at under 3watts/kg I did 1:04 last year, wasn't flat though, lot of turns too.

In Reply To:

If we're going to play that game
55.51 for 40km tt on 3.15 w/kg. Strong crosswinds (as in sitting up necessary when going past hedges) and a road so rough it barely qualified as paved (worth ~1.40 more than on a smooth road). one turn though.

I must be missing something too! I'm with JustinD. I'm about 3.6w/kg right now and there is NO WAY I could go 55mins for a 40k. Was there a tail wind?

How much do you weigh? Is your weight higher than mine equating to a much higher overall wattage? On a flat course w/kg doesn't matter as much. At 245W I'm at 3.6w/kg

Finally here is a pic. I posted this a while ago and Rappstar said I could improve my speed by increasing my aerodynamics. But I didn't think it would have a 55min 40K difference. Am I "that" unaero? Help me out jackmott.

Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [Canadian] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 10 19:05

Post #62 of 139 (32678 views)

1. get rid of all the crap behind yer seat
2. deeper front wheel
3. rear disc
4. fast, narrow tires
5. latex tubes
6. maybe level out the forearms
7. maybe a TAD lower but that position looks good enough where you probably need a wind tunnel or power meter to do better
8. aero chainring
9. remove the cage from the seat tube
10. make sure your clothing is aero
11. make sure you STAY aero the whole ride

just some quick thoughts

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [Canadian] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 10 19:22

Post #63 of 139 (32656 views)

For position sake, here is a photo towards the end of a 40K TT. For the record, I'm about 4W/kg and can do 55-56 min. Don't move from your position (notice your shoulders/head/neck), skinsuit, proper helmet, narrow arms/shoulders, running Veloflex Records with latex tubes, etc.

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 10 19:27

Post #64 of 139 (32647 views)

In Reply To:

1. get rid of all the crap behind yer seat
2. deeper front wheel
3. rear disc
4. fast, narrow tires
5. latex tubes
6. maybe level out the forearms
7. maybe a TAD lower but that position looks good enough where you probably need a wind tunnel or power meter to do better
8. aero chainring
9. remove the cage from the seat tube
10. make sure your clothing is aero
11. make sure you STAY aero the whole ride

just some quick thoughts

And in making the changes you suggested, how much time over a 40k TT would you estimate?

Thanks for the advice.

Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [Canadian] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 10 19:28

Post #65 of 139 (32641 views)

Maybe I am just stupid and missing it, but how do I add a picture up here?

Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [Canadian] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 10 19:29

Post #66 of 139 (32636 views)

dunno but that aero chainrinng will save you at least a tenth of a second per 40k ;)

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [JustinD] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 10 19:40

Post #67 of 139 (32629 views)

In Reply To:

Maybe I am just stupid and missing it, but how do I add a picture up here?

1. tinypic.com
2. Upload a pic
3. Copy the forum link. ( something like http://...
4. paste that link in your post.

Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling

Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [rroof] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 10 19:44

Post #68 of 139 (32625 views)

In Reply To:

For position sake, here is a photo towards the end of a 40K TT. For the record, I'm about 4W/kg and can do 55-56 min. Don't move from your position (notice your shoulders/head/neck), skinsuit, proper helmet, narrow arms/shoulders, running Veloflex Records with latex tubes, etc.

maybe i can ride faster than i think. last test at the end of last year put me at 4.2 W/Kg for a FTP test.

btw rod i love the skinsuit, cincy area team?

____________________________________________________________
Link to my photography
http://davidsavoiephotography.blogspot.com/
http://davidsavoiesports.blogspot.com/

Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [newbz] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 10 19:55

Post #69 of 139 (32608 views)

Yeah, you probably are much faster than you think (plus, I know your position is pretty aggressive/good). I'm about 4.3 w/kg end of season, but much better sprint (left slope) power.

Yup, Cincy area team:

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [rroof] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 10 19:57

Post #70 of 139 (32606 views)

i need to do a cat4 race

pretty sure I can suck wheel behind the talent then crush them at the line

as long as the wrecks I cause do not involve myself, im good

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [rroof] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 10 19:58

Post #71 of 139 (32603 views)

sharp looking kit.

we'll see what this season holds. position is MUCH better for me now than last year/years before. front end is lower, arms a bit more narrow, a little more stretched out. feel a LOT more comfortable and the shorter cranks have helped with the hip issues.

we'll see what the later part of this season looks like.

____________________________________________________________
Link to my photography
http://davidsavoiephotography.blogspot.com/
http://davidsavoiesports.blogspot.com/

Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [NoBrakes] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 10 20:01

Post #72 of 139 (32597 views)

Given that you rode strongly at Rotorua and say you can sustain a high proportion of FTP for a long time - I suspect that you haven't done yourself justice with your ftp testing. Looking at your position I'd have expected a 3w/kg just to ride your IM time.

Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 10 20:04

Post #73 of 139 (32592 views)

In Reply To:

i need to do a cat4 race

pretty sure I can suck wheel behind the talent then crush them at the line

as long as the wrecks I cause do not involve myself, im good

I'll bet you an Oval a900 aerobar you'd get your ass handed to you in a Cat 4 crit.

You have to race THIS weekend. No time to prepare or do any specific training.

Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [NateC] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 10 20:06

Post #74 of 139 (32587 views)

im getting married this weekend

but I do a group ride in austin which is full of cat1 and cat2 guys, and is basically a criterium.

I cannot hang with them for too long

but cat 4? I think I'll be ok

of course odds will some of the wrecks I cause WILL include myself soo..

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

i need to do a cat4 race

pretty sure I can suck wheel behind the talent then crush them at the line

as long as the wrecks I cause do not involve myself, im good

I'll bet you an Oval a900 aerobar you'd get your ass handed to you in a Cat 4 crit.

You have to race THIS weekend. No time to prepare or do any specific training.

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: What FTP can be expected from the average Joe? [NateC] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 10 20:07

Post #75 of 139 (32586 views)

I'm with you. Jack, just "solo/tailgun" off the back of a local Cat 4 crit, then just come around them at the end ;-) I'll throw in a Renn disc I'm not using ...

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

Last edited by: rroof: May 18, 10 20:08

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