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What's more aero? "THIS" or "this" ...
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MrRabbit
Apr 3, 19 8:51
Post #1 of 30 (4073 views)
I'm on a mission to squeeze every second I can out of my setup and my current debate is between:
  • Powertap pedals and a disc wheel
Vs.
  • Speedplay Zero Aero pedals and a Powertap G3 Hub on a Zipp 808FC with a wheelcover

Edit.. vs.
  • Crankset PM described below
  • L Side only if I can find one that fits my setup

I worry that the P1 pedals are costing me a couple minutes vs the aero pedals. They are weighty and more importantly they are pretty fat in the wind. I'm just not sure if the total trade-off would be worth it (from a time perspective, not $$). I've also considered a crankset based PM but I love my Vision set and the oft ignored aero gains that can be had there. But if I'm wrong about that I guess that's a viable option 3.

Lastly, I'd be open to a left side only crank arm, but when it comes to that pert of the bike I honestly have no idea how to know what would/wouldn't fit. So if there are any Felt experts out there that know what would work with a 2016 IA FRD I'm all ears.

Okay now that's 4 options. So clearly I'm a bit lost!

Current setup:

(Having some trouble getting the image to stick, so it's here: https://imgur.com/FLXHa30)



And I know I'm talking about seconds to minutes here, and I'm okay with that. I've missed a KQ by one slot 3 times now including a 5th overall... so I'll take the seconds if I can buy some...
Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4
Last edited by: MrRabbit: Apr 3, 19 9:00
Quote Reply
Re: What's more aero? "THIS" or "this" ... [MrRabbit] [ In reply to ]
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strangename
Apr 3, 19 8:53
Post #2 of 30 (4059 views)
Go for assioma pedals which are at the same price but smaller and lighter ?
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Re: What's more aero? "THIS" or "this" ... [strangename] [ In reply to ]
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MrRabbit
Apr 3, 19 8:56
Post #3 of 30 (4049 views)
They are definitely smaller/lighter than P1s, but I still think they lose time vs Speedplay Aero Zero. I'm trying to get the best total combo out of Pedals/Crankset/Rear Wheel even if it hurts my wallet a bit.
Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4
Quote Reply
Re: What's more aero? "THIS" or "this" ... [MrRabbit] [ In reply to ]
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Nazgul350r
Apr 3, 19 9:03
Post #4 of 30 (4014 views)
Sounds like you have your answer and are trying to get someone to tell you that you are right. Are you able to get to a wind tunnel to test them?
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Re: What's more aero? "THIS" or "this" ... [Nazgul350r] [ In reply to ]
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MrRabbit
Apr 3, 19 9:08
Post #5 of 30 (3995 views)
I really wish I did!

Do you think the wheel cover over the 808 is close enough to a disc to make the pedal swap worth it? I'm honestly not sure myself.

And then there's the Vision aero crankset vs a PM crankset, or the option of the left side only which I've been able to find very little about how to know what would fit. That may just be me not knowing where to look though.

And I have some spare funds to get the best combo, but not quite enough to justify a wind tunnel test as an amateur chasing an IM AG podium.. Maybe one day, but not before the summer.
Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4
Quote Reply
Re: What's more aero? "THIS" or "this" ... [MrRabbit] [ In reply to ]
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Scottxs
Apr 3, 19 9:08
Post #6 of 30 (3994 views)
Speedplay set up
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Re: What's more aero? "THIS" or "this" ... [MrRabbit] [ In reply to ]
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jrielley
Apr 3, 19 9:15
Post #7 of 30 (3967 views)
The 808 and wheel cover is more than ok.
Twitter - Instagram
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Re: What's more aero? "THIS" or "this" ... [MrRabbit] [ In reply to ]
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imswimmer328
Apr 3, 19 9:20
Post #8 of 30 (3953 views)
Disc cover and powertap is fine, or a crank based power meter. I seriously doubt there are any actual gains to an 'aero' crankset once you put a rider on the bike.
Quote Reply
Re: What's more aero? "THIS" or "this" ... [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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MrRabbit
Apr 3, 19 9:22
Post #9 of 30 (3939 views)
Scottxs wrote:
Speedplay set up

Seems to be a popular opinion so far.

imswimmer328 wrote:
Disc cover and powertap is fine, or a crank based power meter. I seriously doubt there are any actual gains to an 'aero' crankset once you put a rider on the bike.

I hear ya on the crankset. May very well be true. Biggest sacrifice may be the loss of color coordination I guess, haha

jrielley wrote:
The 808 and wheel cover is more than ok.

Nice thank you. Good to hear a general consensus so far.
Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4
Quote Reply
Re: What's more aero? "THIS" or "this" ... [MrRabbit] [ In reply to ]
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chicanery
Apr 3, 19 9:24
Post #10 of 30 (3929 views)
Speedplay pedals + Powertap + cover are definitely the most aero if your other option is the Renn flat disc. You will also pick up some reduction is rolling resistance with a wider tire without impacting aero as much.

HED Jet 25mm with PT inside would be the absolute best, but those aren't that easy to come by, especially on the secondary market.

Pedal wise, I would definitely only do the Garmin Vector 3's if you care about aero. I tape the underside of mine.
Quote Reply
Re: What's more aero? "THIS" or "this" ... [chicanery] [ In reply to ]
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MrRabbit
Apr 3, 19 9:31
Post #11 of 30 (3895 views)
chicanery wrote:
Speedplay pedals + Powertap + cover are definitely the most aero if your other option is the Renn flat disc. You will also pick up some reduction is rolling resistance with a wider tire without impacting aero as much.

HED Jet 25mm with PT inside would be the absolute best, but those aren't that easy to come by, especially on the secondary market.

Pedal wise, I would definitely only do the Garmin Vector 3's if you care about aero. I tape the underside of mine.

Makes sense. I use 25MM TT tires now and I've loved them. As for the HED Jet 25 w/ the PT hub... I've been looking forever. I'd do terrible things to get my hands on one of them.

But of course then I'd have an issue if I ever actually make it to Kona, but I'll deal with that happily if I have to.
Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4
Quote Reply
Re: What's more aero? "THIS" or "this" ... [MrRabbit] [ In reply to ]
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chicanery
Apr 3, 19 9:37
Post #12 of 30 (3867 views)
I sold my somewhat aged 23mm HED disc with PT about a year ago. It was super overweight compared to the lightest discs available (including a newer Jet Plus), and I was planning to do some hilly TTs and Tris.

I had a 22mm Bontrager R4 aero on there with reasonably rolling properties, and it was an excellent fit. I regret it quite a bit.
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Re: What's more aero? "THIS" or "this" ... [chicanery] [ In reply to ]
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MrRabbit
Apr 3, 19 9:50
Post #13 of 30 (3817 views)
chicanery wrote:
I sold my somewhat aged 23mm HED disc with PT about a year ago. It was super overweight compared to the lightest discs available (including a newer Jet Plus), and I was planning to do some hilly TTs and Tris.

I had a 22mm Bontrager R4 aero on there with reasonably rolling properties, and it was an excellent fit. I regret it quite a bit.

I didn't realize they were so heavy. And I'm still very surprised that no one makes a rear disc with a power meter hub anymore. Seems like they'd be popular enough.
Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4
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Re: What's more aero? "THIS" or "this" ... [MrRabbit] [ In reply to ]
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chicanery
Apr 3, 19 9:59
Post #14 of 30 (3781 views)
Mine was ~1500g. Probably 3W wasted on the inferior rolling resistance of the tire, and 2-4W on aerodynamics of the wheel itself. Math said I had to dump it. Still regret it.
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Re: What's more aero? "THIS" or "this" ... [MrRabbit] [ In reply to ]
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hblake
Apr 3, 19 12:02
Post #15 of 30 (3589 views)
 

Tape over the valve opening should be good for an extra second or two.

.
Once, I was fast. But I got over it.
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Re: What's more aero? "THIS" or "this" ... [hblake] [ In reply to ]
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MrRabbit
Apr 3, 19 12:56
Post #16 of 30 (3475 views)
hblake wrote:


Tape over the valve opening should be good for an extra second or two.

.

Ha, If I stick to the disc I certainly will. This was on the way to be shipped off to a race, so the latex tubes were gonna need air the next time I saw my bike.
Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4
Quote Reply
Re: What's more aero? "THIS" or "this" ... [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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grumpier.mike
Apr 3, 19 20:25
Post #17 of 30 (3185 views)
imswimmer328 wrote:
Disc cover and powertap is fine, or a crank based power meter. I seriously doubt there are any actual gains to an 'aero' crankset once you put a rider on the bike.

Actually you might be surprised. Oftentimes putting the rider on the bike increases velocity in certain areas so having an aero chape is more important. Chris Yu talked about the importance of seat post design on the new Venge. Your thighs are big flopping tubes that create lots of turbulence, but they increase the velocity of the air moving between your legs making careful seat post design more critical.

If you are looking for maximum aero benefit, aero speedplays, aero crank, and a PawerTap. Also get in ling for the new aero shoes when those come out.
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Re: What's more aero? "THIS" or "this" ... [strangename] [ In reply to ]
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Ai_1
Apr 4, 19 3:42
Post #18 of 30 (2967 views)
Do the Assioma pedals force a wider foot position?
The incurred drag increase from this could easily outweigh any reduction in drag a the pedal.
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Re: What's more aero? "THIS" or "this" ... [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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Ai_1
Apr 4, 19 3:55
Post #19 of 30 (2944 views)
grumpier.mike wrote:
imswimmer328 wrote:
Disc cover and powertap is fine, or a crank based power meter. I seriously doubt there are any actual gains to an 'aero' crankset once you put a rider on the bike.


Actually you might be surprised. Oftentimes putting the rider on the bike increases velocity in certain areas so having an aero chape is more important. Chris Yu talked about the importance of seat post design on the new Venge. Your thighs are big flopping tubes that create lots of turbulence, but they increase the velocity of the air moving between your legs making careful seat post design more critical.

If you are looking for maximum aero benefit, aero speedplays, aero crank, and a PawerTap. Also get in ling for the new aero shoes when those come out.
Agreed. Also the crank/chainring is fairly unobscured when your right leg is towards the upper portion of the stroke, so the presence of the rider will be pretty irrelevant for much of the time. I don't know the figures, but I see little reason to think an aero crank is less valuable than many other "aero" features. Including pedals. It would seem foolish to dump the aero crankset without being damn sure what you're giving up. You could end up with a worse overall setup after all effort to reduce aerodynamic drag.
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Re: What's more aero? "THIS" or "this" ... [MrRabbit] [ In reply to ]
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dcohen24
Apr 4, 19 4:03
Post #20 of 30 (2927 views)
Re: cranks, in theory you could swap cranks to power meter of choice and go with a crank cover like this :
https://www.alden-carbon.com/crank-covers

Id bet minimal loss from an app crankset


You could also write someone like 4iiii and see if they can mount to the metron crankset you are riding.

All that said, do you have the ability to aero test? On my ia (and most people i know to have tried it... But not everyone), the torhans aero 30,mounted as low as it can be, matches the head tube perfectly. It extends the airfoil and is worth 7-10w for me. (confirmed both at ero and the wind tunnel)...if you are looking for time, the drag, there could be a chunk there
Quote Reply
Re: What's more aero? "THIS" or "this" ... [dcohen24] [ In reply to ]
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MrRabbit
Apr 6, 19 6:39
Post #21 of 30 (2570 views)
dcohen24 wrote:
Re: cranks, in theory you could swap cranks to power meter of choice and go with a crank cover like this :
https://www.alden-carbon.com/crank-covers

Id bet minimal loss from an app crankset


You could also write someone like 4iiii and see if they can mount to the metron crankset you are riding.

All that said, do you have the ability to aero test? On my ia (and most people i know to have tried it... But not everyone), the torhans aero 30,mounted as low as it can be, matches the head tube perfectly. It extends the airfoil and is worth 7-10w for me. (confirmed both at ero and the wind tunnel)...if you are looking for time, the drag, there could be a chunk there

That's a cool looking option.. I'll definitely look into that.

And 7-10w?? Wow that's pretty amazing. I always assumed that the BTA setup I had was the fastest option. Was the test against no bottle or a classic bottle setup? Either way I was happy with no penalty. That kind of savings would be wild if I can get it just with a bottle swap..
Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4
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Re: What's more aero? "THIS" or "this" ... [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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MrRabbit
Apr 6, 19 6:42
Post #22 of 30 (2565 views)
Ai_1 wrote:
grumpier.mike wrote:
imswimmer328 wrote:
Disc cover and powertap is fine, or a crank based power meter. I seriously doubt there are any actual gains to an 'aero' crankset once you put a rider on the bike.


Actually you might be surprised. Oftentimes putting the rider on the bike increases velocity in certain areas so having an aero chape is more important. Chris Yu talked about the importance of seat post design on the new Venge. Your thighs are big flopping tubes that create lots of turbulence, but they increase the velocity of the air moving between your legs making careful seat post design more critical.

If you are looking for maximum aero benefit, aero speedplays, aero crank, and a PawerTap. Also get in ling for the new aero shoes when those come out.

Agreed. Also the crank/chainring is fairly unobscured when your right leg is towards the upper portion of the stroke, so the presence of the rider will be pretty irrelevant for much of the time. I don't know the figures, but I see little reason to think an aero crank is less valuable than many other "aero" features. Including pedals. It would seem foolish to dump the aero crankset without being damn sure what you're giving up. You could end up with a worse overall setup after all effort to reduce aerodynamic drag.


This has been a fear if mine too.. had me leaning towards the 808 with the wheel cover. Seems a strong consensus that I'm not taking an aero hit there.

Plus if the last post is true about the bottle I'm super glad I posted this question. I'm open to all possible setup gains.
Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4
Last edited by: MrRabbit: Apr 6, 19 6:46
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Re: What's more aero? "THIS" or "this" ... [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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MrRabbit
Apr 6, 19 6:45
Post #23 of 30 (2562 views)
grumpier.mike wrote:
imswimmer328 wrote:
Disc cover and powertap is fine, or a crank based power meter. I seriously doubt there are any actual gains to an 'aero' crankset once you put a rider on the bike.


Actually you might be surprised. Oftentimes putting the rider on the bike increases velocity in certain areas so having an aero chape is more important. Chris Yu talked about the importance of seat post design on the new Venge. Your thighs are big flopping tubes that create lots of turbulence, but they increase the velocity of the air moving between your legs making careful seat post design more critical.

If you are looking for maximum aero benefit, aero speedplays, aero crank, and a PawerTap. Also get in ling for the new aero shoes when those come out.


I think I'm on the same page. And as for shoes, I already took Thomas Gerlach's advice from his blog and copied these SLX's exactly:

http://www.thomasgerlach.com/...erodynamics.html?m=1
Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4
Last edited by: MrRabbit: Apr 6, 19 6:45
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Re: What's more aero? "THIS" or "this" ... [MrRabbit] [ In reply to ]
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dcohen24
Apr 6, 19 8:49
Post #24 of 30 (2475 views)
So, tested against BTA in the tunnel, and nothing on the track.
It basically just exends the headtube ... you can get it pressed right up against it, making a big airfoil.

Apologies, but my memory was slightly off.. .looks like it was worth about .005 at aw and .003 front on (CDA).... so roughly 3-5w, not 7. I think think the 7 was with a higher cda ( at the track, when I still had a 0.25x cda)

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Re: What's more aero? "THIS" or "this" ... [MrRabbit] [ In reply to ]
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mvenneta
Apr 6, 19 10:17
Post #25 of 30 (2389 views)
Can you get away with 2 less bottles? There has to be some aero penalty (or just flat out less weight) if you weren’t carrying the entire race worth of hydration w you? Or can you get gains from better position ?

Tough break to miss as close as you did 3x

I hope next time you nail it!

What are your normal SBR splits?
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