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Went over the bars - stability on descents and group rides
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I've been doing group rides at lunch with some guys at my work, who ride on road bikes, but after grabbing a tri bike this year I switched over to that, since it's a major upgrade over my old, basic road bike. I haven't been too aggressive and tend to not push it on the descents etc because the bike is clearly more twitchy than my old bike. The group is pretty fast and the roads are far from ideal (New England, traffic and bad pavement), so I'm definitely aware of the risk. I ride on the drops/brakes most of the time, only going on the bars when I'm in front or back and the road is clear and easy.

Anyways, I had noticed that I felt a little uneasy on descents, basically because my weight is forward, the drops are low, my saddle is relatively high (tall lanky guy), and I just don't feel "locked in" like I would on a road bike. Well, this past week I was doing about 20mph down maybe a 3deg hill, in the back of the group, and blindly hit a bump/roller that popped my ass up and I went over the bars and supermanned on some rough pavement. No major damage but some serious road rash and gashes on my knees, elbows and stomach. Have to replace the saddle and the rear wheel might not be salvageable, and throws off my race prep for a few days. Not gonna lie, it's a bit of a wake-up call as it could have been much worse.

My questions - am I an idiot for riding this tri bike in the group ride in the first place? Anyone else feel the same on descents? I think if I were in an area with good roads it might be different, but here you can rarely find a smooth road where you can relax. At the very least I'm going to have to hang back on descents and be extra cautious, but maybe I should just ditch the tri bike and use the road for group rides. As I type this this is clearly the correct answer, but my justification was that I wanted to get time on the tri bike (don't have a trainer currently) and it's such a huge upgrade from my previous $1000 road bike it was hard to go back. Maybe restrict the tri bike to solo rides, and grab a trainer? I'll probably have to upgrade the road bike at the end of the year if I want to really train with one, as the current one is definitely holding me back.
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Re: Went over the bars - stability on descents and group rides [Crentist] [ In reply to ]
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Triathlon bike on group rides is a massive “no no” but you already know this.

On descents I tend to grab the top tube with my knees and scoot a little back on the seat, this gives me super stability. That said, I’ve gone into some pot holes that were close to popping me off. If you don’t know the roads and area be more conservative.

Ps. Learn to love your road bike.
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Re: Went over the bars - stability on descents and group rides [Crentist] [ In reply to ]
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You're not really getting quality time on your tri bike if you're spending the majority of the ride on the basebars.
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Re: Went over the bars - stability on descents and group rides [Crentist] [ In reply to ]
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I wouldn’t ride my tri bike on a group ride and not sure I’d be allowed to be honest.

Hope the damage is not too bad.
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Re: Went over the bars - stability on descents and group rides [ In reply to ]
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I've ridden tri and road bikes on group rides. The no tri bike on group rides mentality kills most rides around here. It is accepted that you don't ride in the aero bars unless your at the front, like you mentioned you do.

I don't know why your tri bike would be twitchy. With a relaxed head tube it should be more stable. If yours is twitchy, there's a problem with how it's set up for you.

If you were on your base bars when going over that bump, you'd have probably come off a road bike the same way.

I think there's something else going on that were not aware of. Perhaps a picture of how your tri bike is set up could reveal some ideas.
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Re: Went over the bars - stability on descents and group rides [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks all, yea could be a fit or position issue I guess. I'm riding a 2018 Trek SC, was in between a L/XL and went with the L, with the high/near stem. Going in for a fit follow up soon so I'll grab some pics.
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Re: Went over the bars - stability on descents and group rides [Crentist] [ In reply to ]
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Certainly not trying to pile on or call you out here.

Any chance you may have grabbed a lot of front brake after the initial hit? You have to get a lot of weight forward of your normal center of gravity to go over the bars. If it was a big enough bump to launch you seems some of the other guys would at least had issues with it as well?
Perhaps you hit, came out of the saddle and engaged both brakes with very little to no traction on the rear wheel allowing you to rotate over your front end?

Just trying to help you diagnose a crash, glad to hear you were not hurt badly!
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Re: Went over the bars - stability on descents and group rides [talking head] [ In reply to ]
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No worries, I don't mind some chiding. I strongly doubt it though, I was basically just coasting. It wasn't a big bump to be honest, just one of those dips that resonates in a way to really kick you. My weight was forward but I also had my ass firmly in the seat, so the kick threw me forward to a point I couldn't recover. Basically I feel like, when descending, the leverage is very bad. My hands are low, and there's not much there on the basebar grips to hold you back. Saddle could be a touch high or forward but not significantly so.

By twitchy maybe I mean the sensation I describe above, where I don't feel locked into the cockpit while descending, as in it feels like I could easily go over the top (and I did). On level ground and climbs it handles very well.
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Re: Went over the bars - stability on descents and group rides [Crentist] [ In reply to ]
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One thing to try is check where your feet. If one pedal down and one pedal up you will most likely bounce on the bumps, and move you forward even more. May not work for your position, but try pedals horizontal and drop front foot heel to use pedal as levarage to push back - do this in MTB when descending. May give you some more stability and keep weight back on the saddle. Hope you feel better.



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Re: Went over the bars - stability on descents and group rides [Crentist] [ In reply to ]
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Never ride in the drops in a group ride unless you’re at the front of the pace line. Hell, it’s just common courtesy and common sense.
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Re: Went over the bars - stability on descents and group rides [mwanner13] [ In reply to ]
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Yea, I meant the basebars (brakes), not the drops. I don't ride in the aerobars unless I'm in the front on an open section as I mentioned.
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Re: Went over the bars - stability on descents and group rides [Quo Vadimus] [ In reply to ]
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Quo Vadimus wrote:
One thing to try is check where your feet. If one pedal down and one pedal up you will most likely bounce on the bumps, and move you forward even more. May not work for your position, but try pedals horizontal and drop front foot heel to use pedal as levarage to push back - do this in MTB when descending. May give you some more stability and keep weight back on the saddle. Hope you feel better.

Yea makes sense, will start doing that as well
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Re: Went over the bars - stability on descents and group rides [mwanner13] [ In reply to ]
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mwanner13 wrote:
Never ride in the drops in a group ride unless you’re at the front of the pace line. Hell, it’s just common courtesy and common sense.

Why wouldn't you ride in the drops? You have even better brake lever access in the drops than the hoods. IN fact, if you're on a road bike and need maximum stopping pressure right away, you go right into the drops first thing so you get maximum grab.
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Re: Went over the bars - stability on descents and group rides [Crentist] [ In reply to ]
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You might want to consider your basebar height. Typically the goal is to replicate the "hoods" positioning, since you should only be using this position for cornering/braking/climbing where the goal is control, not aerodynamics. You should be able to ride on the basebar with your hips rotated back a bit from the aero position; this gives you better weight distribution and control (esp. on descents, which naturally pitch your weight forward).

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Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
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Re: Went over the bars - stability on descents and group rides [Crentist] [ In reply to ]
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Crentist wrote:
My questions - am I an idiot for riding this tri bike in the group ride in the first place?
I think you should ask whoever is in charge of the ride. If it's just a bunch of guys at lunch from work, maybe they're OK with it. And also how safe do you feel? If you feel unsafe on the bike, work on feeling on it solo or with just one or two other people first.


mwanner13 wrote:
Never ride in the drops in a group ride unless you’re at the front of the pace line. Hell, it’s just common courtesy and common sense.
What?


http://www.jt10000.com/
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Re: Went over the bars - stability on descents and group rides [jt10000] [ In reply to ]
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jt10000 wrote:

mwanner13 wrote:
Never ride in the drops in a group ride unless you’re at the front of the pace line. Hell, it’s just common courtesy and common sense.
What?

Yeah, that doesn't make any sense.
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Re: Went over the bars - stability on descents and group rides [Crentist] [ In reply to ]
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Crentist wrote:
My weight was forward but I also had my ass firmly in the seat, so the kick threw me forward to a point I couldn't recover.
This was the root cause of your crash. With your butt planted in the seat there was no compliance left to soak up the bump. Next time when you descend, put the cranks horizontal, push your butt back on the seat and then unweight the seat about halfway, I.e. support most of your weight on your legs. That way if you hit a bump your legs will automatically flex to eat the bump.

Less is more.
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Re: Went over the bars - stability on descents and group rides [Karl.n] [ In reply to ]
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Karl.n wrote:
jt10000 wrote:


mwanner13 wrote:
Never ride in the drops in a group ride unless you’re at the front of the pace line. Hell, it’s just common courtesy and common sense.

What?


Yeah, that doesn't make any sense.

I think the intent there was "never ride in the aero position..."
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Re: Went over the bars - stability on descents and group rides [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, that’s what I meant to say. Lol.

trail wrote:
Karl.n wrote:
jt10000 wrote:


mwanner13 wrote:
Never ride in the drops in a group ride unless you’re at the front of the pace line. Hell, it’s just common courtesy and common sense.

What?


Yeah, that doesn't make any sense.

I think the intent there was "never ride in the aero position..."
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Re: Went over the bars - stability on descents and group rides [Crentist] [ In reply to ]
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I had a friend that had a few crashes on a road bike related to weight distribution. His biggest issue was his weight was too far forward. When you hit a bump, it jams the saddle on your butt, which drives your center of gravity forward. Your COG forms a triangle with the two contact points of the wheels. If you COG momentum is moving forward enough to overcome one of the legs of the triangle you will go over. Physics says it is inevitable.
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Post deleted by windschatten [ In reply to ]
Re: Went over the bars - stability on descents and group rides [Crentist] [ In reply to ]
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These might help..




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Re: Went over the bars - stability on descents and group rides [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
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this was my thinking too,

My "tt bike" is a bit small for me and also a track frame, and as a result to get comfortable its got a long stem, (140mm it think), the result is elbows pretty close to the front wheel centreline so its pretty easy to go over the bars with a dab of brakes, and also its pretty sketchy handling especially in a side wind. basically i need a bigger frame



windschatten wrote:
The average Triathlon position places more weight on the front wheel compared to a road bike when in the standard riding position the bike was designed around.
Most Tri-bikes in aero have a <50R // >50F weight distribution (road being >50R //<50F).

Depending on the bike fit (worst case very long torso on a short reach frame with big saddle to aerobar drop), this can be significantly more (<30R // >70F).

I would never ride a Tri bike on group rides as it only presents disadvantages (unless you pull the group the whole time).
I limit my Tri-bike rides to solo riding.
As you unfortunately experienced, safer on so many levels.
.
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Re: Went over the bars - stability on descents and group rides [Crentist] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds like you've got 2 problems.
  • You're using the wrong bike for group rides.
  • You're not comfortable and stable on your Tri bike.

If you're comfortable and safe on the tri bike, you stay off the extensions when behind others, and it's acceptable with those you ride with, then a tri bike can be used for group rides but in almost all cases I'd rather any properly set up road bike over even the nicest tri bike. IMO, a really high quality tool does not trump the correct tool - even if it's of much lower quality - so long as it works.

If you feel as unstable and out of control as it sounds from your posts, then I think your tri bike is not sized or set up appropriately for you and the type of riding you're doing. I was out on my Felt IA in the mountains yesterday morning. Some of the roads were narrow and poorly surfaced and included descents of on 10-15% gradients with some bends. I was on deep rims and it was just a little breezy. I felt completely in control descending at 70km/h. If the tri bike feels dangerous, the bike needs to be addressed - especially if you intend to train or race alongside others. The guy ahead of me went down hard at about 45km/h in my last 70.3. I only barely avoided him. I was about 25m back. If I'd been any closer I wouldn't have had time to swerve. I could see no cause for his crash, just checked he was okay and waited for the marshall, no time to chat. Maybe there was something legitimate but if he just couldn't control his bike in normal circumstances then I'd have been very annoyed to be put at serious risk.
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Re: Went over the bars - stability on descents and group rides [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
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windschatten wrote:
The average Triathlon position places more weight on the front wheel compared to a road bike when in the standard riding position the bike was designed around.

Most Tri-bikes in aero have a <50R // >50F weight distribution (road being >50R //<50F).

Depending on the bike fit (worst case very long torso on a short reach frame with big saddle to aerobar drop), this can be significantly more (<30R // >70F).

I would never ride a Tri bike on group rides as it only presents disadvantages (unless you pull the group the whole time).
I limit my Tri-bike rides to solo riding.
As you unfortunately experienced, safer on so many levels.
.

Everyone I've worked with that is on a triathlon bike is more like 60-55% rear/40-45% front. On an older road bike maybe 50% front.

With the short chainstays and longer reach of a modern triathlon bike I don't see how anyone could be over 50% on the front wheel.
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