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Weird Swim Pattern: Always Slow coming back Down the Pool
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I usually go to the pool and swim long straight sets of 2000-3000 yards. I do this because I am trying to build fitness and endurance (brand new swimmer).

I notice a pattern that goes across all my sessions. Lengths 25 and 75 yards are close to the same pace. Lengths 50 and x00 yards are also the same pace, but they are a lot slower than 25 and 75 yards.

I thought this was due to kicking or pushing off the wall. But, I had a leg injury this weekend. Swam 2000 yards straight with a pull buoy. The swim was slower, but the pattern was EXACTLY the same. That eliminates the kick and pushoff being the issue.

Here is a screenshot of what I am talking about. The green lengths are the 25/75 lengths. The last column is the average pace of each length. See how the green pace is similar. The white pace is similar. And at the same time the white pace is significantly slower. It doesnt matter what random section I pick out, the paces are always like this.



Since I have eliminated pushoff and kick as the reason, any other ideas? If my time wasnt so slow coming back, I would be doing that bad on average. Also, strokes are about the same as well. If any stroke difference, it is only off by one.
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Re: Weird Swim Pattern: Always Slow coming back Down the Pool [Spartan420] [ In reply to ]
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Your pool has a current. Do you always swim in the same lane? Try a lane on the opposite side of the pool and see if the trend reverses. Or better yet swim when the pumps aren't running.
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Re: Weird Swim Pattern: Always Slow coming back Down the Pool [Spartan420] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure in your case, but I used to get this when I swam in a pool that had the water inflow jets at one end of the pool (but not the other). In other words, there was a current coming from the wall on one end, so it kind of pushed you faster one way, but slowed you down (like swimming upstream) the other.
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Re: Weird Swim Pattern: Always Slow coming back Down the Pool [Spartan420] [ In reply to ]
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Do you flip turn? It may be counting the actual turn time entirely on the second lap which would account for the discrepancy.
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Re: Weird Swim Pattern: Always Slow coming back Down the Pool [Spartan420] [ In reply to ]
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Some pools do have currents and your strokes/length (spl) should be up by 2 spl against the current in that case. When most swimmers talk spl, we're talking of each arm stroke as a stroke vs I'll bet you're using a Garmin which records stroke cycles. One stroke cycle or 2 spl is actually significantly (circa 7-13%) more strokes in a 25 yd/m pool. In the outdoor 25 m pool I swim in about 8 months/yr, I typically take 16-17 strokes down and 18-19 coming back if swimming on the right side of the pool, and the reverse on left side. In lane 4, my stroke counts are dead even. Thus currents can vary even within same pool. However, this is the only pool out of maybe 100 pools i've swum in where i've ever noticed this, but many of those pools i've only swum 1-3 days in so might not have noticed. In the two 25 yd indoor pools where I swim in the winter, my stroke counts are dead even at 15-16 spl.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Weird Swim Pattern: Always Slow coming back Down the Pool [Spartan420] [ In reply to ]
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Is the pool built on a slope?


;)
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Re: Weird Swim Pattern: Always Slow coming back Down the Pool [Spartan420] [ In reply to ]
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Is that from your watch? I have a 920xt and I noticed the same thing. I think it might partially be your watch catching back up. It's not perfect, sometimes it miss counts laps.
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Re: Weird Swim Pattern: Always Slow coming back Down the Pool [Spartan420] [ In reply to ]
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I don't have experience of this myself but in theory there are a few things that could be factors either individually or in combination:

Pool depth and wall proximity
You will experience more drag in shallower water or closer to the side wall. Although you So if the pool depth varies considerably it may effect your time whether you start or finish the length in the higher drag zone.
If you don't always start at the same end but the pattern remains the depth variation could be ruled out.
If you don't always swim near a side wall, or swim centrally in the lane rarther than staying right or left, then the wall effect could be ruled out.

Current
As mentioned by others.
Start different ends and swim in different lanes to rule this out.

Watch/stroke interaction
Unlikely to be sufficient on it's own but perhaps the watch is on the leading hand setting out from one end and not the other if not doing flip turns? Seems unlikely since it would probably cause relatively small variation and most people would lead with the same hand regardless which end of the pool.

Direction specific distractions
Do you get distracted approaching one end and not the other, by watching for swimmers joining your lane or trying to read a wall clock, or......

Psychological
You think you're faster in one direction , so you are.
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Re: Weird Swim Pattern: Always Slow coming back Down the Pool [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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What is likely happening - for the faster sections, this person is swimming towards the deep end of the pool, or downhill. So potential energy is being converted to kinetic energy. On the way back - the opposite occurs.

Another issue - what is the geographic location and orientation of the pool? If northern hemisphere and North/South, then that also factors into making the pool faster in one direction (swimming down, or south) vs. the other (swimming up, or north).

Ai_1 wrote:
Is the pool built on a slope?


;)
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Re: Weird Swim Pattern: Always Slow coming back Down the Pool [Spartan420] [ In reply to ]
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It's the time lost at the wall turn. I know you feel like you eliminated this as a variable with your leg injury, but it's still almost certainly the factor in why one side is so much slower than the other when doing 50s and not 25s/75s. You are forced to incorporate the turn time into the slower length of the 50.
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Re: Weird Swim Pattern: Always Slow coming back Down the Pool [Spartan420] [ In reply to ]
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Start at the opposite end of the pool.

Eta: most likely Coriolis effect *pink*
Last edited by: davejustdave: Feb 26, 18 9:28
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Re: Weird Swim Pattern: Always Slow coming back Down the Pool [Hokiebird] [ In reply to ]
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Hokiebird wrote:
What is likely happening - for the faster sections, this person is swimming towards the deep end of the pool, or downhill. So potential energy is being converted to kinetic energy. On the way back - the opposite occurs.

Another issue - what is the geographic location and orientation of the pool? If northern hemisphere and North/South, then that also factors into making the pool faster in one direction (swimming down, or south) vs. the other (swimming up, or north).

Ai_1 wrote:
Is the pool built on a slope?


;)
East/west is just as important. Depending on your latitude you may have to swim up to 3200km/h faster one way than the other to clock the same times.
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Re: Weird Swim Pattern: Always Slow coming back Down the Pool [Spartan420] [ In reply to ]
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if you want to completely balance the push-off times and elimnate the turn times, then could you do a set like 8 x 25 with a bit of rest at each end? No turns at all, and i think push-offs should be identical.

what happens to a pull-buoy or kick-board floating in the lane? does it move downstream at a noticeable rate-of-knots?

i currently swim in a wall alne of a 25m pool. we do circle swims and i am 1 - 2 seconds slower going out along the wall than coming back along the lane rope. I used to swim in a differnt 25m pool with a severe current. the entire wall lane was 5 or so seconds slower going one way than the other. Current went the opposite way on the opposite wall. It was fun swimming with the current. Swimming against was practise for open-water :-)

run well, run happy
george
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Re: Weird Swim Pattern: Always Slow coming back Down the Pool [Spartan420] [ In reply to ]
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My swim graphs during competition at the old Mission Viejo Nadadores pool have a sawtooth pattern. I checked others and they have it, too. There was definitely a current in that pool. Now demolished and a new pool almost ready in its place, we'll see if they fixed that.

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.
Last edited by: HalfSpeed: Feb 26, 18 9:50
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Re: Weird Swim Pattern: Always Slow coming back Down the Pool [Spartan420] [ In reply to ]
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The current thing can be real although 2 seconds over a 25 would be a hell of a current in a pool designed for competion.

Is there a hot lifeguard you can see going one way but not the other?

Actually it very well could be psychological.

To the extent you are subconsciously using outside reference points to judge speed and thus pacing, the physical environment of the pool can have a very real effect on your pacing if you are not careful. For example, if on one length you are looking at a wall that is close to you and on the other you are looking at a wall far away, you might be giving yourself a messed up read on your speed and make bad pacing adjustments. The depth of the pool can also change your perception of speed. If the depth changes during the lap, or you are looking into deep water going one way, and shallower water going the other, that can mess you up too.
Last edited by: STP: Feb 26, 18 9:55
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Re: Weird Swim Pattern: Always Slow coming back Down the Pool [Spartan420] [ In reply to ]
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To test your suggestions, I found a different pool that was the same depth all the way down the pool. This way I could test the current and water displacement theory. I just did a 2000 yard swim and my lengths were about the same pace. So current and water displacement is what I am going with as the cause of the issue.

Thanks for the help.
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Re: Weird Swim Pattern: Always Slow coming back Down the Pool [Spartan420] [ In reply to ]
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I have observed this same phenomenon, where I am faster on the even 25s, or the odd 25s. I suspect it is my Garmin 735, and that it triggers the start of a new lap when it senses the first arm stroke. I am a bit obsessive about symmetry, so that I roll to opposite sides when coming off of the wall when doing a flip turn, and consequently take my first stroke with my left (with the watch) or my right, on alternate lengths. I tried always rolling to the same side, and didn't notice the difference in times.

salmon - not because I'm a fish
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Re: Weird Swim Pattern: Always Slow coming back Down the Pool [Spartan420] [ In reply to ]
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Spartan420 wrote:
To test your suggestions, I found a different pool that was the same depth all the way down the pool. This way I could test the current and water displacement theory. I just did a 2000 yard swim and my lengths were about the same pace. So current and water displacement is what I am going with as the cause of the issue.

Thanks for the help.

I also think the "start at the other end of the pool" idea would serve to test the watch theories. If you start at the other end and you get the pattern in the same direction, it's the pool. If the pattern reverses direction (with respect to the pool), it's the watch.
Last edited by: lanierb: Feb 26, 18 11:50
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Re: Weird Swim Pattern: Always Slow coming back Down the Pool [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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Ai_1 wrote:
Hokiebird wrote:
What is likely happening - for the faster sections, this person is swimming towards the deep end of the pool, or downhill. So potential energy is being converted to kinetic energy. On the way back - the opposite occurs.

Another issue - what is the geographic location and orientation of the pool? If northern hemisphere and North/South, then that also factors into making the pool faster in one direction (swimming down, or south) vs. the other (swimming up, or north).

Ai_1 wrote:
Is the pool built on a slope?


;)
East/west is just as important. Depending on your latitude you may have to swim up to 3200km/h faster one way than the other to clock the same times.

Personally I’m worried that they built the pool longer one way than the other.
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Re: Weird Swim Pattern: Always Slow coming back Down the Pool [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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Grant.Reuter wrote:
Ai_1 wrote:
Hokiebird wrote:
What is likely happening - for the faster sections, this person is swimming towards the deep end of the pool, or downhill. So potential energy is being converted to kinetic energy. On the way back - the opposite occurs.

Another issue - what is the geographic location and orientation of the pool? If northern hemisphere and North/South, then that also factors into making the pool faster in one direction (swimming down, or south) vs. the other (swimming up, or north).

Ai_1 wrote:
Is the pool built on a slope?


;)
East/west is just as important. Depending on your latitude you may have to swim up to 3200km/h faster one way than the other to clock the same times.

Personally I’m worried that they built the pool longer one way than the other.

Occam's razor says this is the most likely explanation.

To the OP, my home pool has a wicked current in Lane 2. It's easily a second slower going one direction vs the other.

Also, rethink your training program. If you enjoy the long straight swims, that's fine, but for most that's not the most effective way to truly get faster.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Weird Swim Pattern: Always Slow coming back Down the Pool [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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I have a hard time staying motivated to swim. Swimming something like 10x100 sounds worst than just swimming 2000 yards, even though it is half the distance.

I have trouble starting. So to swim one straight set, I only have to start once, not 10 times or whatever.

So, I just swim without counting laps and look at the pool clock every once in while until I get to 40 minutes or so. Then I count down to 2000 or 2500 or even 3500, depending on what I am swimming that day.
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Re: Weird Swim Pattern: Always Slow coming back Down the Pool [STP] [ In reply to ]
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STP wrote:
The current thing can be real although 2 seconds over a 25 would be a hell of a current in a pool designed for competion.

Is there a hot lifeguard you can see going one way but not the other?

Actually it very well could be psychological.

To the extent you are subconsciously using outside reference points to judge speed and thus pacing, the physical environment of the pool can have a very real effect on your pacing if you are not careful. For example, if on one length you are looking at a wall that is close to you and on the other you are looking at a wall far away, you might be giving yourself a messed up read on your speed and make bad pacing adjustments. The depth of the pool can also change your perception of speed. If the depth changes during the lap, or you are looking into deep water going one way, and shallower water going the other, that can mess you up too.

It is technically 2 seconds but he’s also swimming 2 min/100 so any current is going to hit him a lot harder than someone at faster speeds. Swimming really sucks for slower swimmers that way.
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Re: Weird Swim Pattern: Always Slow coming back Down the Pool [Spartan420] [ In reply to ]
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count your strokes. If they are different (consistently) then there is a current. If they are the same it is the watch.
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Re: Weird Swim Pattern: Always Slow coming back Down the Pool [Spartan420] [ In reply to ]
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Spartan420 wrote:
I have a hard time staying motivated to swim. Swimming something like 10x100 sounds worst than just swimming 2000 yards, even though it is half the distance.

I have trouble starting. So to swim one straight set, I only have to start once, not 10 times or whatever.

So, I just swim without counting laps and look at the pool clock every once in while until I get to 40 minutes or so. Then I count down to 2000 or 2500 or even 3500, depending on what I am swimming that day.

If that approach gets you in the pool, then it's better than not swimming at all. So have fun. Just be aware that if your progress stalls, there is a "better" way.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Weird Swim Pattern: Always Slow coming back Down the Pool [Spartan420] [ In reply to ]
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Spartan420 wrote:
I have a hard time staying motivated to swim. Swimming something like 10x100 sounds worst than just swimming 2000 yards, even though it is half the distance.

I have trouble starting. So to swim one straight set, I only have to start once, not 10 times or whatever.

So, I just swim without counting laps and look at the pool clock every once in while until I get to 40 minutes or so. Then I count down to 2000 or 2500 or even 3500, depending on what I am swimming that day.


Swimming in any manner is better than nothing.

Personally I am the other way around, takes more motivation for me to jump in and do a straight 2000-3000, that to do sets of things like 100s, 50s, or 25s.

I have noticed a slight difference in my pool also, and it is the shallow deep end difference on mine.
Last edited by: tyme: Feb 26, 18 13:50
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