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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [sdmike] [ In reply to ]
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Man, that is exactly the question I have been asking ever since Dan talked about 101. Just have never gotten me excited, and so far,
not many others either.

Now, I had paid for IMcda but cancelled when I saw AG Nationals was going to be on the west coast. This got me excited to train for a goal.

If folks saw the 101 as such a great think to add to their list, they could have done the same.

Now, give me a ITU double O distance, with the possible ability to qualify for World Champs, you have my attention.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [sdmike] [ In reply to ]
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"I was wondering, did they ever consider adopting the new ITU long distance distances?"

i would argue that they did what they did partly in response to the new ITU long distance change. to a man and woman, every single long distance athlete who's voiced an opinion (and there have been probably over 100 that are documented) has protested the new distance, and wants the old distance to remain (that is, something close to the 101 distace). the new distance is short of a half-IM. that's like the IAAF saying, "the new longest distance in the world championships and the olympics is going to be the 20k." i doubt pure marathoners would appreciate that. a 20k is much more likely to be won by 5k/10k specialists than by marathon specialists. this new double-olympic is there to provide another racing opportunity, and perhaps a second olympic event, for existing ITU athletes, that is, instead of mccormack, jones, dibens, cave, bolting for IM, or 70.3, or non-ITU "classics" like alcatraz and lifetime fitness, they'll stick around and just go up-distance. it allows you to keep your simon whitfields in the fold. there is nothing about the double-olympic that has anything in mind other than the 500 athletes worldwide that the ITU cares about.

for those who think i've got some vested interest in this, i've been preaching the utility of the 101 or the nice distance for probably 5 or 6 years now. just go to the slowtwitch.com main site and search, or search the forum archives, you'll probably find it.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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>>Check out Danskin. Their numbers are huge and many retail accounts tell me that sales to women are on a tear right now. Thats' were the growth is.<<

I'd agree!

The half on Saturday was 124 men and 98 women. That's pretty amazing for a half.
The sprint on Sunday was 246 men and 292 women!

clm

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
My motor home got 7.3 MPG on my latest trip.

Dave
Maybe if you'd put some of those HED tires on it, it would get better mileage.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I think I got some of my info incorrect. Funny thing is, the ITU website www.triathlon.org has the 2007 long course champs as double olympic and the 2008 long course champs in Holland as triple olympic....hmmm.
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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"I see folks post that HIM's are being cancelled since they could not get enough to sign up."

you see the same thing with sprint and olympic races. that has to do with the quality of the event and its marketing. i still stand by my argument that the half-IM is the distance that has received more growth than any other over this decade, and i suspect you might stipulate to that. certainly, this has caused a plethora of these events, and not all will be successful. we have had tremendous growth in triathlon, but not every race is going to benefit from this, just as not every company making a tri bike is going to benefit from this. only those who execute will benefit.

there are maybe 2000 multisport races in the U.S. if every triathlete does 2.5 races per year (many just do 1 and that's it), and if there are 200,000 triathletes, that's 250 people per race. some races get 1250, some get 2500. those big numbers have got to come out of another RD's hide. if you execute, you'll fill your races.

there are two places left to establish a distance, and that's the old nice distance, and something like the old crawfishman distance, which is pretty similar to the half-old-nice distance (2k, 60k, 15k). i also think, if i was the 101 folks, i'd have both imperial 101 and metric 101, just like centuries do. or half-101, which is roughly that other distance i just spoke of. you can do a ton with this brand.

back to that metric-101: 1.2mi swim, 50mi bike, 11.5mi run. pretty close to your double-Oly. you just have to build your brand, and execute.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]>>Check out Danskin. Their numbers are huge and many retail accounts tell me that sales to women are on a tear right now. Thats' were the growth is.<<

I'd agree!

The half on Saturday was 124 men and 98 women. That's pretty amazing for a half.
The sprint on Sunday was 246 men and 292 women!

clm[/reply]

that IS impressive and great to see.

https://www.miles4matt.run/
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
back to that metric-101: 1.2mi swim, 50mi bike, 11.5mi run. pretty close to your double-Oly. you just have to build your brand, and execute.

Isn't that basically a 1/2 IM? 1.2mi swim, 56mi bike, 13.1mi run. How similar do you want two events to be? To me, it's ridiculous that there are so many different lengths that are trying to become the standard.

That tells me that triathlon as a sport, isn't sure what it wants yet. That's not necessarily good for the growth. Some standardization is key, in order to make the sport accessible and understandable to the masses. Look at running, and it's logical progression for a new runner...5k, 10k, 1/2 marathon, marathon. Clean and simple.
Last edited by: GearGrinder: May 8, 07 10:05
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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>>I see folks post that HIM's are being cancelled since they could not get enough to sign up.<<

Which HIMs would that be?

CaliMan 1/2 was cancelled due to water issues (lack thereof). That race has also been hurt by the moving venue and date. I'd say that's an abberation. Like slowman said, there will always be specific races which fold due to RD or other issues.

clm

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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As I said, what do I know. The numbers on the 101 will speak for themselves.

Still hoping someone picks up the double O Distance. I think there are more than 500 folks that would be interested.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Last edited by: h2ofun: May 8, 07 10:08
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Markus Mucus] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]>>Check out Danskin. Their numbers are huge and many retail accounts tell me that sales to women are on a tear right now. Thats' were the growth is.<<

I'd agree!

The half on Saturday was 124 men and 98 women. That's pretty amazing for a half.
The sprint on Sunday was 246 men and 292 women!

clm[/reply]

that IS impressive and great to see.

Compare with Wildflower LC (finishers only):

Men: 1397
Women: 459

Maybe the men are the lemmings! ;-)

clm

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I don't really understand how a double-o is that much different than a 1/2IM

1/2 IM: 2k swim 90k bike 21k run
Double-O: 3k swim 80k bike 20k run

Really, they're pretty similar. Wouldn't someone who is interest in that distance already be a 1/2IM candidate? If you draw from one pool to feed another, you're only fragmentign the field.
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Uncle Phil] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]It's happened at Lifetime Fitness Triathlon to a couple pros as well...and also when cops were the only ones at the intersection.[/reply]

Is it really so hard to give the cops a MAP of the course? Shouldn't they KNOW which way to direct traffic? This is a very easy fix, IMO, for the cops.

ALSO I always drive the course if I can't bike it first. I think it is quite silly to race without any recon of the course, I speak from experience. Glass, fast downhills, gravel, torn up roads, no shoulders, headwinds, etc....etc...I don't like surprises on race day, so I try to minimize them.

I have gone off a bike course by about 400 yards when the volunteer was a kid sitting in his car, not paying attention and there were no markings on the road, nor signage. Another athlete called me back (I didn't drive the course beforehand!) It also happened to me in a marathon where I ended up running an extra 200 yards.

--------------------
Jeanne Roth
Team Timex 2007/2008
http://jeannejeannie.blogspot.com/
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [GearGrinder] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, I was in the past. But, as I am trying to do less impact stuff to save my body, I do a lot more swimming.

So again, look at the baby boomers and see where they are going? Do folks in their 50's and 60's want to do more running?
More biking? Or more swimming? I know what folks tell me their training has changed to, and races.

So, in the past I was caught up into the hype. I am now doing races to support my reality, I am getting older, and need
to take care of the body if I want to be one of those 70 year old racers.

So, I have no desire to even do a half again. But, give me the more balanced Double-O race, and I may step back up to
the longer distance.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [GearGrinder] [ In reply to ]
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"That tells me that triathlon as a sport, isn't sure what it wants yet. That's not necessarily good for the growth."

my business, as it was growing, constantly changed its mind as to what it wanted to be. there's the old zenith/motorola business school parable. one insisted it was a TV company, the other wasn't quite sure, and decided to simply say it was a consumer electronics company. motorola is still deciding what business it wants to be, and its BOD's decision to always leave that an open question is what has made motorola successful.

the marathon has been around for 2500 years. it's got a 2470 year head start. allow triathlon a few more years.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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"I was wondering, did they ever consider adopting the new ITU long distance distances?"

there is nothing about the double-olympic that has anything in mind other than the 500 athletes worldwide that the ITU cares about.


For pros, yes, the double olympic is a sprint. But everyone keeps asking about those 100,000 USAT members. I am guessing that for a majority of those members double olympic is long. Hell, for a lot on ST, that is long. After that, for the average Joe, you are leaving the "race" world and entering the "event" world. And if you are going to do an "event", why not do the IM distance.

I think you overestimate the common sense of triahtletes. I doubt if someone is 101 ready, but not IM ready they are going to face up to it. "Dam it, I have signed up for my life changing IM 'Event' and I am going to do it! Besides, hotel and airfare are already purchased."
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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i still stand by my argument that the half-IM is the distance that has received more growth than any other over this decade,

It is hard to believe that the growth of triathlon is at the 1/2 IM distance because my in area, metro NY, there have probably been 8x more Oly and sprints added to the calendar in the last decade than 1/2's. Currently we have seen a few 1/2's added (up from none several years ago) but that pales in comparison to the sprints and olys.

I wonder if anyone has a statistic on that? Isn't there a "multi-sports directory" that would have some of this info?
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Dave,

I respect your zeal for the "double ITU" distance, but beyond yourself, I doubt there is much interest even in those of us over 50 .... and many of us still like to run. Probably less interest than the 101 distance.
I do agree with you that Dan seems biased in his representation of 101 ... but now has had to be a little more objective about how bad Bradenton turned out to keep credible. It surely seems to be financial bias .... I personally would be fine if he just said it as there is nothing wrong with that. We can all be biased ... we should just declare financial bias when it exists right up front.
Yes, we have many fine choices for races at all distance from sprint to IM distance ... and many seem to be doing well. So many choices and yet only so many heartbeats to be used. And thats before we add in some fine marathons/ 1/2M/ 10Ks and some really great bike races as well .... even open water swim only events. For me .... just keep on bringing those fine NAS events and I'll just keep recovering as quick as I can for the next one available.
Dave
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [sdmike] [ In reply to ]
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I think a lot of folks on here are talking without too much information. for those folks who have done a 101 distance (old ITU long course), they can tell you it absolutely is different than a 1/2 IM and a full IM. It is a race unto itself. There is virtually no difference between a double 0 and a 1/2 IM. But there is a significant difference between a 101, a 1/2 and a full IM. Trust from one guy that has done all 3, there is a difference and when you race it, you will see the difference.

https://www.miles4matt.run/
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [sdmike] [ In reply to ]
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"I am guessing that for a majority of those members double olympic is long."

exactly. ask yourself, then, how long an IM is for the typical multisporter. were oahu 80 miles around instead of 112, and if the waikiki rough water swim was 1.8mi, instead of 2.4, and if the honolulu marathon was the honolulu 30k, that's the distance the Kona race would be. imagine, then, somebody coming up in 2007 with a race series that was 140.6mi in total. what would you all be saying?

this thread is a microcosm of the problems any new race organizer faces. the problem with the 101 isn't the distance, it's the newness. even a lot of the people here (of all places), who ought to be raising a statue to honor a couple of guys who're laying 100s of 1000s of $$ on the line to build a competing brand of events, are giving them a shit-kicking instead. i'm not saying everyone should line up and enter. i'm not going to enter, because i'm not a long distance guy (i'd give a half-101 a go).

as i wrote last week, most triathletes are followers. they don't have vision. they aren't made of the same stuff as the ones who built the sport. for them, yes, paula's quote of "a catered training day" is very appropriate. until the 101 becomes "safe" there won't be a lot of entrants and, ridiculously enough, "safe" means mass-acceptance. back when we were all triathlon pioneers, mass-acceptance meant it was time to move on to the next new thing.

if scott molina was pushing 25 instead of pushing 50, he'd be all over the 101 like white on rice.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [dcsxtri10] [ In reply to ]
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You may be right, but the 50 plus guys I talk to have gone back to shorter stuff because their body can no longer take the pounding of longer runs.

How old are you? How many folks can run distance, and recover, lets say over 60? I am sure looking at how I can keep racing as I know the knees will give out.
Yep there are some 80's than can still run, but for the masses, and a business model, sprint and Oly is the growth. I was just comparing who really will do a 101 and
not an IM. Not me. And so far, the numbers show not a lot of interest in 101, just excuses. Maybe I am wrong, but just do not see a working 101 business model
from the folks I race with. No one yet I have asked about it has ever heard of the 101 races.

So, I really have no current desire to do a HIM again, or a double O. 10K at the end of a race is just plenty to let it all hang out for my genetics.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [dcsxtri10] [ In reply to ]
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"It surely seems to be financial bias"

alright, now i'm getting angry, because now you're defaming me. i am providing live coverage for 4 races, and forum web hosting, and forum architecture building, for them. you decide what the appropriate amount is to be paid for that. print it right here, on this forum. what is the entire amount of remuneration you think is appropriate for that. and then we'll discuss.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan, I still like when races work with their physical boundaries/ attributes versus trying to satisfy a standard distance. The old USTS San Jose course had a 45K bike instead of a 40K bike. The course included the Metcalf climb which made the race a legend. If they went with 40k, Metcalf would have been left out.

-Woody
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Re: We can all complain about IMNA, but... [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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"the brand means an experience, and one thing graham fraser does is provide a great experience. the 101 folks have to prove they can match this. "

From AG athlete perspective I believe 101 gang provided a pretty great experience.
1. Kept athletes informed via email, entry lists, and web blog. Check
2. Provided athletes with a on-line forum. Check
3. Provided athletes with fair and reasonable cost event. Check
4. Provided the athletes a pre-race meeting and meal. Check
5. Provided great swag: good looking technical T-shirt, visor, transition towel, poster. Check
6. Provided a great race day event, with electronic leader board showing real time results. Check
7. Provided great finisher medal and a great cool max finisher T-shirt.
8. Provided great post race awards. Check
9. Provided great post race dinner. Check
10. Provided event store that had reasonable prices. Check

"for 3-sporters, a marathon is hard enough. adding the other two events makes an IM an event that is frankly unsuitable for many of its current adherents, because of physiology or lifestyle. but there is no good alternative, so they keep going back."

I fully agree. IM or marathon racing is not a healthy lifestyle for most of us IMHO.

"they bag IMs, that's what they do"
Dead on center and for some at any cost.
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