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Watts Up With The Hour Record?
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I don’t understand the difference in power output on the hour record.

Wiggins is widely reported to have averaged an estimated 440 watts but Campenaerts beat him by 563 meters despite averaging only 330 watts (Campenaerts had a power meter). Some variability is expected but for Campenaerts to beat Wiggins despite putting out only three quarters the power is hard for me to wrap my brain around. What am I missing?
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Re: Watts Up With The Hour Record? [Sutnblue] [ In reply to ]
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CDA & air resistance. Campenaerts did it at elevation.
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Re: Watts Up With The Hour Record? [Sutnblue] [ In reply to ]
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In addition to the air density part of the equation already mentioned, it's important to remember that output levels drop at altitude, too. Campenaerts would have produced higher numbers at sea level, and the disparity wouldn't have been as great... but his lap times would have been slower, almost certainly slower than Wiggins' were.

The conditions for the Wiggins record were really quite unfavorable. A couple of people I know that have some insight into the numbers of some of the current top of the heap TT riders don't seem to think any of them could beat what he did at that venue on that day, or as one of them put it "we should all be glad he didn't go to Aguascalientes, otherwise the record would have been out of touch for another generation".

Here's hoping Ganna has a go at it so we can at least do the math ourselves :)

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Re: Watts Up With The Hour Record? [Sutnblue] [ In reply to ]
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Well, nobody has mentioned the measuring stick yet. They were pros with sweet ass equipment and money tossed at the occasion but what are the chances the meters don’t agree.

Just asking.
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Re: Watts Up With The Hour Record? [Sutnblue] [ In reply to ]
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BC's stated power seems way low. 330W at 6100' (Aguascalientes) is only equivalent to about 360W at sea level (for reference, Lionel did 401W for his hour). That kind of FTP is within range for a lot of pros, not even the top TTers. I know he had a PM, but 330W just doesn't make sense for that type of effort. I think Dowsett was looking at 425W to match BC's effort when he was doing the computations before Covid derailed is prep.



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Re: Watts Up With The Hour Record? [fredly] [ In reply to ]
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fredly wrote:
A couple of people I know that have some insight into the numbers of some of the current top of the heap TT riders don't seem to think any of them could beat what he did at that venue on that day, or as one of them put it "we should all be glad he didn't go to Aguascalientes, otherwise the record would have been out of touch for another generation".

Here's hoping Ganna has a go at it so we can at least do the math ourselves :)

When I was reading this part, Ganna immediately came to mind. People think Ganna cant do what Wiggins did? I remember Wiggins saying that once Ganna goes for it, we may not see it beat again in our lifetime. I didn't follow cycling in the Wiggins days, but he must've been a monster.

Man, I wish Ineos pulled all the stops and invested in an Aquas run for Ganna. Leave no stone left unturned with marginal gains and see how far he can go.
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Re: Watts Up With The Hour Record? [Sutnblue] [ In reply to ]
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Saying 440 watts sounds much more baller for sure..
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Re: Watts Up With The Hour Record? [Sutnblue] [ In reply to ]
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He went faster really only because of the elevation

I honestly feel bad for Wiggins, thats not how it should work

Strava
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Re: Watts Up With The Hour Record? [BigBoyND] [ In reply to ]
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I didn't follow cycling in the Wiggins days, but he must've been a monster.

I think the best way to frame it is that Wiggins kinda' was Ganna... and then he won the TDF, too.

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Re: Watts Up With The Hour Record? [RossJ] [ In reply to ]
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He went faster really only because of the elevation

I honestly feel bad for Wiggins, thats not how it should work


Wiggins knew what he was doing. He made a conscious decision to trade a "better" record for a huge crowd in his home velodrome, and the $ that came with that. The ability to make that calculation is pretty impressive in it's own right.

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Re: Watts Up With The Hour Record? [fredly] [ In reply to ]
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But he was also quite unlucky as the air pressure on the day was very high
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Re: Watts Up With The Hour Record? [fredly] [ In reply to ]
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fredly wrote:

Wiggins knew what he was doing. He made a conscious decision to trade a "better" record for a huge crowd in his home velodrome, and the $ that came with that. The ability to make that calculation is pretty impressive in it's own right.

Wiggins absolutely knew what he was doing. Campenaerts? Hmmm. Not so sure.
Last edited by: RChung: Jul 30, 21 3:02
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Re: Watts Up With The Hour Record? [fredly] [ In reply to ]
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fredly wrote:
Quote:

He went faster really only because of the elevation

I honestly feel bad for Wiggins, thats not how it should work



Wiggins knew what he was doing. He made a conscious decision to trade a "better" record for a huge crowd in his home velodrome, and the $ that came with that. The ability to make that calculation is pretty impressive in it's own right.

he optimized his "rho / $"
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Re: Watts Up With The Hour Record? [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
Well, nobody has mentioned the measuring stick yet. They were pros with sweet ass equipment and money tossed at the occasion but what are the chances the meters don’t agree.

Just asking.

Very well said. I love it we often have these conversations to the nearest watt using steady state models and we also almost always ignore the error of the input. I know of two powermeters I own that despite being calibrated are off by 15%.

My thoughts are:

-Victor C wattage looks a bit low, but then again in his channel he shows a power to speed graph (not at altitude) and the guys has a really efficient bike position. Don't recall the numbers. He is also a smaller guy (5'7"?)

-The 440 W, was just an estimate if I recall correctly, he did not have a powermeter. It sounds badass, but it is just an estimate.

-Victor gets little respect for his record and is often disregarded as "altitude" which has some truth though. Let's not forget that Alex Ds record kissed the 53 kph on 340 W (IIRC?) Victor C has a much more efficient bike position than Alex D ( I would argue that fully fit he is a better TTer and stats might match this argument, so in my view, he could have gone 53.5-54 kph at sea level.

-Wiggins said it himself. Once Ganna goes for the hour record, it will be game over for a long time. He had a number in mind, but did not disclose it. My guess is he will bring the record back to 56 kph and match Boardman on superman position.
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Re: Watts Up With The Hour Record? [Sutnblue] [ In reply to ]
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I have mentioned this before - I only compare my power to me and my power meter. When I start comparing to friends it frequently doesn't make sense. At IM races I am often significantly faster (or slower :-)) than friends with much higher average watts. My position isn't OK but not all that special. I just think there is more variability than than our empirical minds who like to believe.

David
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Re: Watts Up With The Hour Record? [Sutnblue] [ In reply to ]
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I’m looking forward to Ashton Lambie and the Huub boys taking a crack at these time based track records.

Edit: Looking at the American record, Zirbel did 408 watts for his hour in Aguas. Looking at his bike and a few stills, he left some potential gains on the table but I don’t know an American other than maybe McNulty or John Croom, that has a realistic chance to beat that at the moment.

https://rallycycling.com/...merican-hour-record/
Last edited by: Ohio_Roadie: Jul 30, 21 5:56
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Re: Watts Up With The Hour Record? [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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Wiggins absolutely knew what he was doing. Campenaerts? Hmmm. Not so sure.

Yup, seems to be a fair bit of low hanging fruit left unplucked on that attempt. Honestly, knowing how many people think this is a relatively "soft" record, I'm surprised we haven't seen more people have a go at it. Well, Covid (and the Olympic re-set) I guess...

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Re: Watts Up With The Hour Record? [fredly] [ In reply to ]
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fredly wrote:
Wiggins knew what he was doing. He made a conscious decision to trade a "better" record for a huge crowd in his home velodrome, and the $ that came with that.
This is a fact.
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Re: Watts Up With The Hour Record? [fredly] [ In reply to ]
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fredly wrote:
Quote:
Wiggins absolutely knew what he was doing. Campenaerts? Hmmm. Not so sure.

Yup, seems to be a fair bit of low hanging fruit left unplucked on that attempt. Honestly, knowing how many people think this is a relatively "soft" record, I'm surprised we haven't seen more people have a go at it. Well, Covid (and the Olympic re-set) I guess...

At the start of the pandemic, the UCI was expressly not sanctioning hour record attempts because it meant that one of their own had to travel to the physical location. At least one pro's attempt (dowsett?) was scuttled for this reason. Then once they allowed it again races also resumed and TTers are sent back on team duty and it becomes harder to fit it back into your yearly goals.
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Re: Watts Up With The Hour Record? [Sutnblue] [ In reply to ]
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Sutnblue wrote:
Wiggins is widely reported to have averaged an estimated 440 watts but Campenaerts beat him by 563 meters despite averaging only 330 watts (Campenaerts had a power meter).

Campenaert's data sounds about right. Would expect ~360W at sea level. He has the aero part sorted pretty well and that's why he is a good TTer; he is not a powerhouse.

I suspect the CdA+Crr used in Wiggins power estimation was at least 10% too high. So maybe 400W... and probably less.

Based on what I've been told, you lose ~10% power in the velodrome vs road.
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Re: Watts Up With The Hour Record? [Sutnblue] [ In reply to ]
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A lot - most - of the wattage values you see posted are usually estimates, and often quite poor ones depending on the particular bias of the post/article/etc. And then, of course, there's the actual accuracy of the powermeter as well, calibration procedure, offset, etc, etc. Most of the numbers posted in this thread are probably wrong. Wiggins didn't use a powermeter. Neither did Lionel. Campanaerts did, but I don't know that anyone has actually seen the file. FWIW, I heard that he did 450w from someone who's actually pretty involved in the industry, which is almost certainly incorrect, but I wonder where that 330w number actually comes from, since that also is almost certainly incorrect, though much more likely to be closer to the truth than 450 given Campanaert's size and the fact that it was at altitude. Dowsett posted himself that he did somewhere between 350-360 when he set the record the first time, which seems correct.

Dan Bigham is probably the best actual reference point, because he's so meticulous. I'd say if you want to get a sense, look at Bigham's (unofficial) hour attempt at Derby, where he did 357 to go 52.631 - https://www.instagram.com/p/B9ADHoHBci3/?hl=en

Derby isn't known to be a particularly fast or slow track, and I don't believe they attempted to optimize for air pressure. It was more about modeling and testing of their model; they predicted to within a few meters how far he'd go. And Dan is probably about as close to perfectly optimized in terms of equipment and position as you can get, though I'd bet he still has some more gains in terms of skinsuit (I don't know if that was in the latest Velteq suit) and - possibly - shoe cover-socks. I think they'd pretty much finalized the cockpit in terms of monoriser and base bar at this point, so likely the remaining gains - which may be significant - are in the fabric/clothing department. Helmet/bike/cockpit/wheels/tires/position/drivetrain all seem pretty much final at this point.

The technical optimizations are pretty astonishing. After spending time with the Huub guys, Ashton went from 4:26/7 (2018) to 4:16 (2019) in Carson, shattering the track record of 4:25 (which was from World Champs). Some of that was fitness; but I'd doubt much. Almost all of it would have been technical optimization. Which also goes a long way to explaining why distance and power so poorly correlate. Zirbel was a monster in terms of output, but arguably rode the least optimized setup for an hour I can remember, though Aguas is so fast it makes up for a lot of sins.

The technical optimization of the hour - and of track cycling in general - both makes it more and less interesting, I think. The chase of a lot of these records comes down to who has the resources - either personally or externally or both - to go after them. A legitimate national record attempt (for most countries) can be made on 5ish w/kg and a legitimate overall record attempt on 5.5ish wkg, which is nothing really remarkable in and of itself. 5 or 5.5w/kg for an hour in an optimized aero position on a 250m track is more challenging (even more so depending on how hard the track is to ride; Aguas is very easy), but definitely something that can be managed with any sort of reasonably disciplined training. But Aguas is expensive. Record attempts are expensive. Equipment can be REALLY expensive.

Our very own MTM is one of the most credible experts on this, so I'll be interested if he chimes in. Hope he does. He's recorded some of the all-time best hour performances in pursuit of the Danish record.

There's really not a whole lot - if anything - left on the table physiologically at this point. Most training "optimizations" - USRPT, MED, etc - have proven, unsurprisingly, to be fads. And I also think that as the obsessive shift to "quantified self" has made metrics even less reliable. Since wattage matters so much in and of itself, there's definitely a desire to favor "optimistic" power sources. Because people are so impressed(?) by these numbers.

If we see a technically optimized rider who is also a physiological phenom who also selects the fastest track, I think the record will be untouchable for a while, as it was with Merckx. We've only really had two of the three so far. There's also discussion that Campanaerts now realizes how much he left on the table technically and that he may take another crack at it with a focus on technical optimization.

TL;DR - don't believe the wattage numbers. They're usually wrong.

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Last edited by: Rappstar: Jul 31, 21 8:15
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Re: Watts Up With The Hour Record? [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Bigham just posted 54.781 at Odensee, which he did note was with a flying start.
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Re: Watts Up With The Hour Record? [Sutnblue] [ In reply to ]
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https://www.instagram.com/...utm_medium=copy_link

My next hour record pick is Dan Bigham.
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Re: Watts Up With The Hour Record? [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Help me understand how pro TTers are doing the hour record at anything less than 400w at sea level. I am to understand that most of the top world tour athletes (including climbers) have an FTP north of 400w, with the larger athletes who obviously north of this number.

Given that FTP is usually an estimate of 60 mins efforts, it would seem that something is amiss, at least to me.

I do understand that FTP isn't always 60 mins, or that they're estimates, and that a 20 min effort to estimate 60 mins varies between athletes, and that at sea level you're trading air resistance for power, and that FTP between road and TT bikes does vary. But 350w for an hour record at sea level seems awfully low to me for a well trained TT specialist.
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Re: Watts Up With The Hour Record? [timbasile] [ In reply to ]
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timbasile wrote:
But 350w for an hour record at sea level seems awfully low to me for a well trained TT specialist.

Per above, don't believe the published numbers aka guesses aka divination, aka pulling numbers out of their asses.

The group supporting the lady that did the landspeed bike record behind a drag race car claimed she did like 650w for 2min or longer for the attempt. Horse shit. Once they got called out on the sketchy number it disappeared from their site.

I'm interested in what people feel the actual loss is for velodrome corner "g's". Someone above said 10%. That seems high. I'd say for a pro that's spent a little time on it, I could swallow 5%. But 10? 10% for a pro is a mammoth amount of wattage. 10% to us mortals isn't as much, haha.

There must be something to it as a g-force loss of power as the recent new track hour record for Rock Hill was several mph slower than the regional 40k TT P/1/2 podium speeds were......including a u-turn around.
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