Cool video, seems like a good vibe'ing kid. Good luck with that journey if he truly does come into triathlon. I've worked with enough CRP kids (which is kinda what he would be classified or working with) for USAT and one of the big issues for stud runners turned triathletes- The swim just kicks your ass and it's A LOT of work for itu demands of competition.

There's a video by Matt McElroy that showcases his swim changes over the years, it's pretty cool video and shows you just how much you can change, but also how much work you have to put in.

Having to dedicate to swim training can take the "fun" out of training for athletes especially from a single sport background.



Sorry if that's too real, and not the way you wanted the thread to go to. So like I said, cool vibe, his uva teammate is the one to watch for in '24 and '28- Brent Demarest.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I'm particularly interested to see how his swim progresses. I watched one of his earlier filmed coached swim lessons, and it's pretty clear he's totally green regarding swimming - definitely beginner/rookie level now - I'd suspect he'd currently come in the MOBOP in even an AG triathlon swim.

his swi should improve quickly, will be interesting to watch.

Checking out his videos and such. 1st condolocenses to him and his family for his sister just passing away last week. That's rough to lose someone that young.

Swimming.....newbie swimmer at that....at 7'k+ altitude......ouch. 2 swims a week w/ a group/coach for next 2 months sounds like is the general plan. Earlier video mentioned 13:20 5k track trials goal as well.


4mi tempo time trial pacing a friend in the wind sub 19:00 + a killer zwift workout about a month is one hell of a quick day.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

He doesn't look that young and can't swim. So no sorry, don't see it (for ITU). Long distance Tri maybe as the new Lionel :-)

This kid?? He has a grown beard and a moustache! I thought the post was featuring a 13-16 yo kid, not a 20-something man...
As said above, he can't swim, so there is no way he can make to ITU. Not in this life. Maybe LD? Maybe. But the toll the swimming can take on him might take away all his bike/running/mental strength. Out there there are probably tens of hundreds of "kids" who can just do like him or even better, but lack the talent in one of the disciplines. Another many more probably are swimming just-under-elite-level (like Lucy CB was back then...), and it is a matter of time they make it to triathlon with a head start.

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STRAVA INSTAGRAM

One of the biggest hurdles that athletes have with the movement to triathlon / itu from a D1 single sport background is 1) they can't "suck" in any of the sports. 2) It takes a "humble" attitude to grind their way to success in this sport; especially ITU pathway.

I've coached half a doze athletes of his pedigree from single sport success turned ITU pathway in the USAT CRP program dating back to 2012. I've coached guys low 14's 5k to ~17 5k for women. The biggest adjustment I see is that it's a GRIND. There's nothing sexy about having to hit the pool 8-10 times a week and your *only* doing 10 x 100 on 1:30 while the FOP guys are doing that set 10 x 100 on 1:05 / 1:10. So what I've found is that these guys will give it a go for 6-12 months, see some improvement in the swim, see that they still "suck" overall in tri and get frustrated and move on to "life" or back to single sport. They realize it's not really a lot of "fun" in that kinda grind when they can then immediately go back to a sport where they are much more successful. Hell I've worked with athletes that came into the sport ahead of where GJ was in her initial itu career assessment, and the grind / burn out / injuries / life all collided to result in them moving on from the sport. The actual success of an D1 athlete turned itu "success" story is really really low. For every Matt McElroy I can name you 12 D1 guys that didn't even make it to an world cup level, etc.

But looking at his videos I see success in the adventure lifestyle and I think he'll probaly stick more to full time running with the cross training benefits. There's honestly no chance he has an itu pathway if he truly does suck at swimming. Like if you can't swim 1 100 in below about 62-64s at min after 2 months, you probaly should just quit and go back to running....because your not going to even come close to making it...Because those front pack guys can do 1 100 in low 50's and so that initial get out speed just won't be there from the start.

So that's what usually happens with very high level single sport athletes. The grind and lack of success turns you off and eventually you get sick and tired of having to work on your "weakness" that much and then you start to doubt your own single sport weapon and so most simply crash and burn trying to make it.


ETA: But again that's probaly a little *too real* for where I think the thread wanted to go. Just imo and this is a quick snap judgement mind you, he'll give tri an attempt and I would guess we'll eventually see him sticking to running. But again I've not seen his swim, just on the other comment and his own comment on one of his videos "just got done swimming and that sucked". You can't really do itu if you basically didn't grow up as a year round swimmer. We simply aren't going to be able to "coach you up" to itu demands of competition from a near non-swim background. That's not hating, that's not doubting his ability, that's not doubting his seriousness (although only swimming 2 times a week kinda pin points where I think his decision is already at), that's understanding the demands of competition and the starting point for an itu athlete. *Again* that's if he truly does "suck" at swimming, which imo I am currently coaching an guy very similiar to his pathway. Collegiate runner turned serious cylist (so this guy is a few years older than this athlete in thread) and he never swam before now. He sucks, and it's essentially starting from scratch. Like basic kicking drills, basic everything to get them comfortable and in good body position. That's step 1 for "sucky" swimmers, F worrying about how fast you are, and so in those cases, you just likely aren't going to be able to get to the demands of itu racing. Again not to "hate", not to rain on any parade, but we are talking reality here.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I am also interested in his swimming. It is cool to see great athletes with big engines try something new. Do you know, is he swimming 6 days a week with a squad?

(I cannot comment without mentioning that ridiculous facial hair...)

He said in a video within the last month he's doing 2 times a week of swimming for a few months.

ETA: His videos are pretty good.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I'm doubly interesyed6 to see how (little) progress he will make with 2x per week swims.

For sure that will have to go up a lot when his arms can handle it.

I don't get the obsession with the ITU on this board sometimes. Clearly that is not in his plan of life. Literally vlogging and working as a software engineer while putting up great run and bike numbers. Long distance will probably be his thing, if he ever even wants to race.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

So I found his swim video. Sounds like USAT gave him some funding to get checked out to see basic swim competency w/ a coach and video (from the linked video below). Good way to see if there are any diamond in the roughs. USAT did this with Alan Webb in '14 giving him about a 1 year "trial" at triathlon. He went all in w/ an itu squad, actually swam at very good high level in the pool during sets (he was doing *some* of the faster intervals w/ FOP athletes- Hemming). He just struggled with doing it in open water race simulations and would struggle HARD core (coming out of water last 5). Still would run top 5 run split, but when your 2:30 down, you aint coming in top 20 of the world with that gap.

ETA: So for funding purposes, there are certain standards an athlete must hit in the swim to make funding (or in the run for a D1 swimmer turned triathlete). Then there are gold / silver / bronze monthly funding (w/ coaching stipend separate) for athletes. Non funded monthly athletes can still receive funding / support from USAT various ways- bikes / wheels / gear randomly throughout their time, they just don't get much support. It's likely not an big investment from USAT to pay for this guys swim program for the next few months. I'm guessing after 2 months when they "test" you'll then see a more yes/no to the tri pathway. And also coaching an crp supported athlete, they are required to do different "test sets" and also monthly communications w/ USAT on their training progress.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tk23dfx8AQI

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

USAT "funded" him to atleast see where he was as a swimmer. They only do that for olympic pathway athletes.

And ST has almost not ITU obsession, this is 98% LC focused forum. But national governing bodies only care about olympics and if he goes LC they'll promote it and blog when he gets a good result, but there is almost zero "support" for non-draft athletes.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

ITU is The Best Breeding Ground for triathletes. It's the stepping stone to being a good LD athlete, the skill set demand is so much high. For every Lionel there are 10 former ITU guys in IM racing.

ITU is like F1 IM racing is = to racing go karts

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

That isn’t interesting to me at all. The answer is he will go from being bad to still being bad.

I agree, but I see it even more as selection of the most genetically talented. You can't just 'work' your way to ITU level, you have to have the genetics in all 3 SBR that even make it possible before anything else.

So a 100 / 500 "test set" with ITU being more sprint focused is probaly the most accurate swim test set that can *objectively* forecast where you will be.

100 all out effort- shows your get out speed
-1 min rest
500 best- shows what you can "sustain" after the all out effort



Now this type of athlete's ability is a HUGE draw because with the likelihood of itu moving to full time sprint distances + MTR, if there is decent swim ability you can coach that up. However if your starting from scratch w/ the swim, there's real no objective chance to making it. As I said, if you didn't grow up in year round swim, or somehow can just turn into a fish very very quickly (very rare), itu just is too damn specific for an athlete to make it. You also don't turn into a fish on 2 swims a week.

However it's smart to give someone like this a shot. He was able to go part time w/ his job, so he has the training ability, now it's just determining if it's a smart decision for himself / coaches / federation to go "all in" on this project. USAT will have likely spent less than $1k to determine if it's worthy investment, especially on the men's side. However on the men's side in itu they are imo 1-2 full olympic cycle ahead of the women in terms of development/racing tactics imo. The women are just now finally "racing" every leg of the event, the men have been since the B's and Gomez forced it 10ish years ago. So I think what the women will find is that in about 6-8 years the specialization at a younger age in the sport will result in almost no "d1 turned triathlete" will work to win an medal.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Sure, I guess. I watch it on TV whenever NBC has it because I'm a fan of the sport. But there are no events here and Draft-Legal may as well not exist.

General question, are draft legal amateur races a thing outside of North America? Or is the general Tri Scene just dominated by long course events?

ETA: @ Brooks. I don't think USAT is focusing much on crossover athletes now. I think they're trying to support the NCAA initiative as best they can. Because those environments are where the US has an edge.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

It's not even about AG DL races, it's the culture of the sport. Europe and Australia fans (IE AG Athletes) have a much better appreciation for that side of racing even if they CAN'T race it themselves. Now of course it helps when they can be entertained by it and go watch them while drinking a beer (2 DL racing leagues in Europe that have the best ITU athletes in the world racing those leagues), so it's much easier to then appreciate it while not actually doing it. Whereas in the US we are so IM focused for the AG athlete to achieve their bucket list item while also lack a real DL scene for pros (Major League Triathlon is only pro DL scene and that's only in development stages) that unless you go out and want to follow ITU, you won't.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

You didn't answer the question. Amateur racing scene (god we need to stop saying "age grouper") how large is the draft legal scene? You have parents here trying to help nudge their children along in high school triathlon, but the only opportunity the child has to race at least in Arizona is at Non-Draft events.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

How large is the DL scene where in the US or world?

The US has probaly the best junior (U-19) draft legal scene in the world, except for probaly the French. In the US there are 6 DL races for an under 18 year old athlete to race in....you have to travel to them almost assuredly, but there are 6 DL races in the US that are sanctioned by USAT. There's also 2 AG DL race weekends for any AG athlete to do and currently at min 3 Under 26 DL race weekends for athletes. You just better be willing to travel. And yes they fill up races, so there is the demand for it.


Also in regards to the USAT "focus". USAT the general people (who dont necessarily have input on the direction of high performance decision making) are focused on the NCAA pathway, but not the high performance staff. The high performance staff- IE the people who are paid the big bucks to produce medals aren't viewing the NCAA pathway as a very good pathway *yet*. Obviously it's only a female pathway to begin with because no ncaa men's. And until the NCAA tri pathway is the pathway where our best juniors are always going into that side of NCAA, we still will be focusing on D1 crossover. But as I said in an earlier post, i think in 8 years there will be no CRP on the women's side of the sport. I just think it'll take 10 years to get there from the inception of NCAA.

What USAT puts out on social media and what they are doing behind the scenes on the itu pathway are 1000% different. The NCAA movement is the "hot topic" currently because they put in a lot of money for that program to work and so they are going to push that and push that. But that's not close to any of the ear marked money for high performance, which is what the itu pathway is for and what you likely wont ever see in public view of (I have a fairly smart and accurate viewpoint on the itu pathway side of USAT because I'm in the game of itu athlete development as a coach). Yes eventually NCAA is going to be pretty exclusive feeder for women itu in the US, it'll just be likely '28 olympics before we see that.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

look, your initial participation in this thread was "I don't get this obsession with draft legal..." Okay. Fine. You don't like it. DL racing is the pinnacle of the sport. And you are right, the vast majority of racers will never experience. Sorry, a lion doesn't concern itself with the opinions of a sheep.

Brooks: two boys on my sons swim team (age 10) are getting close to breaking 6 in the 500 and are running legit sub 12 minute 3000s. When do kids with real talent start turning to tri? I figure age 13?

I asked a question and I had to re-ask the question because he provided an irrelevant opinion about "appreciation".

Is Draft-Legal racing the pinnacle of the sport? I guess. I don't know. I just race and follow pros because I'm a nut. But 90% of this sports participants across the world doesn't look at this sport as a consumable thing. It is a participation sport for the vast majority of the population.

For perspective, you likely don't have a triathlon fan that has never done a triathlon. But you have millions of soccer fans that have never put on cleats.


Thanks! Now that is helpful and provides color to the landscape.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I'll give you a funny story. Rev3 many years ago did a DL event at the Richmond Motor Speedway. They had all AG's and because it was in Richmond, it was a very "hot bed" for youth/junior race (Mid Atlantic has a decent junior tri scene). So I had a youth kid racing on a MTB. He out swam and out ran the field by a long shot but raced on an MTB. The winner was 2nd fastest swimmer and runner but had a full road bike + zipp aero wheels. My 12 year old athlete was all pissed, etc.....The USAT national team coach came up to him and said "son your ahead of him from a development standpoint, where you finish as a 12 year old doesn't matter, have fun and keep enjoying the sport".


So moral of the story and I have stats that I can share with you in private, keep it FUN for as long as possible. I actually HATE that we have a DL scene for 13 year old athletes. I just think it's too soon and too fast and too much "pressure" to have an "national racing series". Again I have some stats to suggest we are doing a disservice and putting a bit too much pressure on athletes too soon.

If you continue to swim and I'd do 1 DL racing scene as a youth (ages 13-15) as a 15 year old and then said athlete would have 4 more years of DL racing. Now I think DL races are great development, I just dont like that the youth age group has "standings" and such. DL at that young of age should be almost exclusively on developing skills and comfort to not crash out your fellow competitor. Not worry about if your the best athlete and showing up with zipp wheels, etc etc.


Another idea is to go to Youth Nationals in Cinicinnati and just watch the DL scene. It's very "intense" and they also have the ability to do a MTR as a 12 year old, I find that can be a good "intro" into DL and it's much lower key and less stress with how the race unfolds, etc. The fast teams are fast but the majority of the teams are just out there plodding along, etc.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

For perspective, you likely don't have a triathlon fan that has never done a triathlon. But you have millions of soccer fans that have never put on cleats.

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This is very much a US centric triathlon viewpoint as it counters the world's viewpoint on the sport (but again your view point and knowledge is very limited so I understand why you have this viewpoint). That was my point and yes I did answer your question, you just failed to understand the answer I gave you.

ETA: I'm not saying that triathlon is "popular", I'm saying that in other cultures the pro side of the sport is very much appreciated by those who don't even "do triathlon". I have the evidence and viewpoint to make that judgement, I dont think you do, imo.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II