I believe Brett (ZenTri) from the podcast Zen and the Art of Triathlon just bought the Elite Direto. Maybe he can comment or he will be reviewing it on an upcoming podcast.

I love my Wahoo Kickr. That being said, I've tried calling their support line on several occasions. I hold for 5 minutes then I get a message that all agents are busy and I can't leave a message. No response to my emails either. Pretty disappointing customer service but a good product.

Michael

you should see a review posted here shortly...Elite has great power accuracy, a bit louder, along with some minor differences, but its at a great cost point.

as tony mentioned, we have a review in the can. i'm at interbike now, and i just didn't have time to get this up on the site before i decamped for vegas. it will be up in less than a week, however.

i'll ask tony to respond to this, and travisrassatt as well if he reads this, but as i've been reading reviews it seems to me that you have 2 overwhelmingly important price points for direct drive smart trainers: $1,600 and $1,200. what i read both from tony and from owners is that Tacx rules at $1,600 with the NEO, unless you want to travel with your trainer.

otoh the kickr rules at $1,200, at least among slowtwitch users. we'll see how the direto's review changes that perception or doesn't.

but i just put up tony's long term review of the cycleops hammer and after reading it i must say that i don't see why this doesn't apply pressure at the $1,200 level. so, tony can respond, but might you want to place this on the ballot?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

My perception is the Hammer has the features of the Kickr and the portability of the Neo @ the Kickr's price point. So features are the same, cost is the same, portability is worse. Wouldn't that push most people to the Kickr? I'm not saying it's a bad entry, it's not. I just don't think it's competitive w/ the Kickr at the same price. Also keep in mind that for the same price the Kickr includes a cassette, the Hammer does not. So the Kickr is ready to go out of the box, the Hammer requires 1 (albeit very small) step / incurred cost.

I've had a kickr for 2 years. I'm on my third top cap (includes optical sensor and ant+/bluetooth antennas), and had to foot the $70 bill for the newest one. I'd say put serious thought into the Direto.

I had been reading many reviews for a while, and ended up with a KICKR v2 because of a great price. However, in my humble opinion, and after a bit of use, I think these are nearing the commodity-level. The performance differences are converging, and any of the major products (Elite, Wahoo, Cycleops, Tacx) are so similar that price becomes the major differentiation.

There is the religion of "road feel" that influences heavy flywheels. Honestly, I do not give a crap about road feel when I am on an indoor trainer.

There are material differences in total watts and incline (high watts at low RPM) that the trainers can simulate. This is a real differentiator, but the majors are getting close to one another, and in most cases, the numbers are so big that it is immaterial.

Then, there are cool adjacent features like Wahoo's Climb, Tacx's cobblestone simulation, or just very low noise. If those matter to you, then that pretty much makes up your decision.

There is an emerging crop of ~$900 direct drive smart trainers like the Directo that are defining a new entry point. So, you kind of have to work hard from there to justify $300 of additional value in the next price tier of trainers. I honestly do not know how Tacx expects to sell a single Neo Smart at $1,600-- that price point is bordering on the absurd.

i don't see portability as a standalone feature. i see portability and stability/solidity as existing along a gradient. the hammer has the solidity of the NEO, but not the portability of the kickr. if portability is important to you then you're absolutely right, the hammer is outfeatured by the kickr. and you're right, the hammer is going to all-in cost $25 to $35 more than the kickr.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Thanks for input. Where I am stuck contemplating, is for all intents and purposes, I can find the 2017 Kickr for the same price as the recently released Direto.

Has stability been a problem w/ the Kickr? I've noodled around on all 3 and other than the slight 'wobble' (for lack of a better term) of the NEO I didn't feel like I was going to fall over on any of them. Mind you I'm short, and I wasn't putting max efforts into them...I was just spinning around on them.

I have yet to see a smart direct trainer that I would call portable. I usually talk about it in passing in terms of moving from a room to a closet. These things are heavy and take up space. I feel if someone wants portability with a trainer, you should look at a wheel on design like the SNAP or maybe rollers. Wheel-on design is significantly lighter, and due to smaller flywheel, and generally less electronics, they fold up quite nicely. If I travel, this is what I bring.

The Hammer and Kickr are really two pees in a pod. With the recent update for Kickrs to be thru-axle compatible, they are nearly identical spec wise. All things being equal, once you spend over $1000 for a trainer, the $35 difference for a cassette is mute. Personally, I almost always use my own cassette regardless due to gearing (train like you race). People may choose one over the other due to brand loyality, or experience with the company, which also makes sense, but on paper and in use, they are too close to say one is better than the other. However, if you are part of the Wahoo ecosystem (ELEMNT), well then that would be a deciding factor to go with the Kickr. Even that can be argued now as they opened up the Elemnt to controlling other trainers via Ant-FEC…Wahoo also partners up with other companies to offer incentives per se to choose the Kickr such as TR subscriptions, sufferfest, etc.

As Dan mentioned earlier, there was only two price points for direct trainers – Neo ($1600), and then the rest (Kickr/Hammer/etc @ $1200). The next price point is wheel on smart trainers for about $600. As we have seen the specs at this level now mirror each other amongst the companies, something will give if a company wants to take the lead. The KICKR CLIMB may be wahoos attempt to do exactly that by creating a tool within their ecosystem. If not, generally we see price points drop.

That being said, the new Elite Direto may be the shot across the bow for the $1200 price point. When you talk about minor differences in feel but with all the main features for $300 less, I’m sure the other companies will be monitoring their numbers. The issue the Direto may face in North American market, if a consumer walks into a LBS, they are likely to see Wahoo, CycleOps, and Kurt Kinectic trainers. Now our forum group do their research, hence the Elite may find its way in my ST hands vs those who visit the LBS.
The more interesting discussion might be, will we see the end of smart trainers. Outside of Tacx's announcement of a $3500 smart bike, individuals may look at smart indoor bikes as an option as they start to hit the market. The Watt Atom may be in the range of $1800-$2000. Permanent set up, fully adjustable with aerobars to match current set up, etc, with no wear and tear on your $10000 P5x frame. Or will it help adjust the direct drive price point...


I wont even get into the Neo price-point.

Cyclops still has not solved the power drop issue on Zwift. I have to use a Stages power meter with mine and then it works fine. Been waiting for the supposed update for months now.......

LifeTri wrote:

I believe Brett (ZenTri) from the podcast Zen and the Art of Triathlon just bought the Elite Direto. Maybe he can comment or he will be reviewing it on an upcoming podcast.

Oh hey! Yup, I've been riding the Direto for about a week. Unfortunately, I don't have a Kickr to compare it to. But I have been riding trainers and using power meters and all that jazz forever. Here's what's up with it so far:

1. It is crazy quiet. If the Kickr is even quieter, I'm at the point of saying so what. I'm really impressed. My wife came home and thought I was gone and was surprised to find me on the trainer because she didn't hear it until she walked by the room I was in. I was riding it last night at 250 watts and could easily hear the youtube video of Ironman 70.3 Chattanooga playing out of my Macbook Air speakers. I would normally have to use headphones or play it on the big TV to hear that on my old CycleOps Fluid 2.
2. It pairs with almost everything I've thrown at it. And I got it to record dual-sided when I used my Garmin 510 and uploaded that to Training Peaks. It hasn't recorded dual-sided yet with my 520, so I don't know if that's a setting I have to turn on?
3. The one exception that wouldn't pair with it is Wahoo's iPhone app. I think that is designed to pair only with Wahoo trainers. :(
4. TrainerRoad worked with it fine once, but then the second time it would show data but not control the trainer. I think that may be because the second time the Direto was also paired with my Garmin 520 at the same time and it can't be controlled by two devices at once and it picked the Garmin, which controlled it fine.
5. Garmin 510s can't control it in erg mode. That's why I got a 520. 520 does it well.
6. There's a setting in Zwift to tell it how much to throw watts at you when you go uphill. If you want to shift tons, set it to 100%. If you want to enjoy your ride a bit more, around 80% is fine. You'll shift some, but not tons.
7. The only almost annoying thing is that the paper manual instructions and companion app are poorly translated from Italian to English. It's cool that it's so Italian, but sometimes you are left scratching your head until you figure it out yourself. But it's nothing major.
8. Previously, I was using an ANT dongle in my laptop to pick up my PowerTap hub and ride Zwift. I'm really enjoying how the Direto and laptop or phone work by Bluetooth, and my Garmin connects to it by ANT. No more dongles, everything just works. It's fantastic.
9. The black color rocks. And the fan inside is a cool red color. It reeks of style, like any good Italian hardware should.
10. Accuracy seems fantastic. It feels spot on, but I have know way to know for sure. My other power meter is in the hub of my wheel and you have to take that off to use the Direto (obviousy).
11. Moving it from room to room is a breeze. The legs fold in to make it narrow, it doesn't weigh that much, and there's a handle built into the back. I've moved it twice and didn't think much of it whatsoever.

One thing I'm looking for - Does anybody know of a way to control it by cadence instead of watts? Let's say I want to ride at 84 rpm no matter how hard or easy I go... Is there a way to do that?

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

You probably won't, except for used or a refurb. The KICKR is in the $1,200 price tier, and they are not often discounted. The Directo is in the new $900 price tier with the Tacx Flux.

That extra $300 for a KICKR gets you morsels like Climb compatibility; heavier flywheel; slightly higher max power; 6% higher grade simulation; and slightly better (stated) power accuracy.

I love my 2016 KICKR2. However, if I were choosing between these two right now, and spending MSRP money, I would probably choose the Directo over a KICKR and use the extra cash for other fun bike goodies.

A new firmware update was released Sep 19 for the Hammer. It is suppose to fix the Zwift dropoffs as well as add cadence.

Cool. Haven’t checked lately. I’ll test it out, I can make the drop out happen at certain points on Zwift at will.

Be sure to report back on what you find regarding the Zwift dropouts and whether the cadence feature appears to work properly. I have been holding off replacing my Computrainer until feedback on the then promised Hammer firmware update became available.

I was wondering if apparent build quality/robustness of a trainer is a consideration for most when making a decision on which trainer to purchase. I have seen the Neo and Drivo and was not impressed as far as build quality was concerned. By comparison, the Kickr and Hammer appear to be better built and give the impression that they would last longer. One thing I can say about by 12 year old Computrainer is that the damn thing will not die.

Ours is certainly sick (won't calibrate - the command just hangs both from PeriPedal and the Wahoo phone app), but appears to be putting out accurate-if-variable power in Erg mode. We're going to wait until after Kona and then look into one of the new ones, maybe a Hammer, and try to get the Kickr fixed for sale or backup. What symptoms did yours have that a new top cap resolved? $70 isn't bad if it would fix ours.

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The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Cool notes. I should be getting mine Friday.



Slope mode and use your shifters?

FWIW, I've been able to use the Wahoo Fitness app to pair with my Tacx Vortex (using the wahoo iPhone ant dongle)

Thanks for the write up of your initial thoughts

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Matt

Yeah, I could see it doing it with ANT. ANT is a lot "dumber" and agnostic. I believe bluetooth can carry more info and they can determine more easily the brand of the trainer and say no thanks to the signal. Maybe. I'm going to test it again tonight or tomorrow. I like the Wahoo app for sure and I want it to work.

Another thing - If people want to fine tune their erg mode down to the watt, the best app I've seen so far for that is the TrainerRoad one. Garmin does it by 5 watts. But TrainerRoad does it by percentage up to 200 percent. If you're at 250 watts and want to go up just 1%, it's a super easy tap on the phone app. That will give you a bump up of just 2.5 watts. Garmin's requires 4 button presses to modify your goal.

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

I've yet to hear of a smart trainer that hasn't had issues. I've owned computrainers that needed repairs, my kickr needed a new top cap as well, my friend's Neo had to be replaced (died), read lots of complaints about Hammer.
Given the closeness in price of all these trainers, maybe it is now best to base purchase decision on what company has the best track record for support/warranty service, cause yer gonna need it someday.

I'd be a little wary of early-adopting a brand that's new on the market unless there's a price point advantage. Consider all the firmware updates Wahoo has done so far.