Well, if you are chasing people down so you place higher, isn't that racing regardless of what that placement is?

If someone is DFL but they see the second to DFL in front of them, chase them down and pass, does that mean there wasn't a race?

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Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce

As I've stated many times in this thread, this is all just my opinion. If you want you can "race" at any point for any place to satisfy your competitive needs, but for me I'll stick by my original statements. I know many BOP runners and triathletes and none of them seem to give a crap about where they place except for completing the course and possibly getting a better time than last year. Look at the people on ST their race is normally who has the fastest bike split, then they go for a cool down jog.

Again just my opinion and you are all free to disagree and define the race anyway you want.

Ken

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"the trick is to keep losing weight until your friends and family ask you if you've been sick. then you know you're within 10 pounds. if they start whispering to each other, wondering if you've got cancer or aids, you're within 5. when they actually do an intervention, you're at race weight." - Slowman

I completely understand why someone would put in their time.

For me my IM bike is slow, because I don't bike enough(or the right way) not because I am not 100% aero. If you are splitting hairs and single-digit minutes matter than spend the $$$, but for me who has 45 minutes to take off my bike more aero isn't the solution.

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Swim - Bike - Run the rest is just clothing changes.

It is confusing you know, it seems for some reason you are always in good standing here in the forum because no matter what you say and under what circumstance you say it you are still allowed to participate in this community freely while others who make jokes about Paulo, Kona or other inside jokes are punished swiftly. If they are in six different kinds pain, crying themselves to sleep I wonder what your pain threshold is. You seem to need more than a pep talk too.

I am not attacking you personally since everyone has their opinion on this matter of large "racers" and it seems there are a lot of people that migh agree with you, maybe some not as vocal, just wondering...

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"Bros b4 Hos, man" House MD

Team Aquaphor 06-08

How can you still run 6-7 hours after 10 marathons unless you are like 60+? and most important why?

If they did the first one as a bucket list type thing in 6+ hours fine but how dont you get serious about it after 10,unless they have some physical dissability in which case what I said will not apply.

Peace

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"Bros b4 Hos, man" House MD

Team Aquaphor 06-08

Not to the elitists at the front. I guess if you aren't finishing in the top 20 and vying for a podium spot in your AG, then you might as well stay home and do a triathlon around your block.

And yeah, in the Olympics there are people there that don't "belong" and aren't going to be competitive for medals, but you know what? They still qualified in their country and established the minimum 'A' time/distance/score/etc. Why wouldn't you count them?

To say that just because you didn't place in your AG, and maybe didn't even have a chance to, you weren't really "racing" just out there participating is condescending and belittling.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

"First - no Chicago DID NOT run out of water, nor sport drink...they didnt, that is just a fact"

"82 is still not that hot. Extreme - freaking please. I suppose that if I was 250lbs and out of shape it would have been extreme - short of that...folks were just plain unprepared"


Sorry for some reason - my comments didn't post the first time. Chicago did run out of water - I had friends who volunteered at the first couple of aid stations and they confirmed this. I volunteered in Little Italy around mile 16ish. We ran out of water before the 4:00 pace. We ran out of gatorade/water and even cups. We were filling our empty water jugs at a local bar, a nice man's bathtub in his house, and from garden hoses. Every volunteer was just trying to find water somewhere because it was hot and people (even in shape people were failing). Chicago ran out of water at multiple stations, period.

I understand when time is appropriate but for crying out loud, have you seen how ridiculous it can get over here? Cracks me up.

Anyhoo, what a race is is a matter of opinion. I'm just poking around to see where the edges of that opinion are and looking at why someone who doesn't finish in the top 5 of a race isn't considered "racing". I just disagree. I also know there are people who are only there for the metal and bragging rights around the water cooler and they aren't the ones I'm defending, just talking about the others, like myself, who aren't fast but chase down as many people in front of them as they can.

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Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce

classic.

Rockman just lost my business.

I am a 6:08 PR marathoner, due to severe knee degeneration, bilaterally, not due to lack of training or preparation.

I can tell you that there wasn't any water anywhere at any of the aid stations when I came through @ the Chicago Marathon in 2007. I was completely prepared for the race, and for the heat. I had my own fuel belt full of my own nutrition... but it was so hot that day, there was not a sip of plain water to be had. One aid station actually had gallons of water delivered by... someone... and volunteers were opening up the jugs and pouring them into cups that people were picking up off the ground. No joke.

Do I blame the race? Not really. They were prepared as they had been in the past. The faster runners took 6-7-8 cups of water, to drink, to pour on themselves, to splash in their armpits, Godknowwhatall, and left literally nothing for those of us in the back. I don't blame them, either, though. It was hot. If you think it was 70 degrees, you're nuts. It was 85+ and humid and Chicago smelled like steamy hot garbage that day.

I know I'm not fast. I don't care if you approve or not. I just wanted to let you know your condescending and elitist attitude sucks...and your facts are wrong. Especially since you are an area RD. The next time I clean my bathroom, I'm going to use my Rockman race T-shirt.

So you are PC...as stated in a prior post. The best someone can do WHEN THEY PREPARE is one thing. I was there that day - most of the folks who were there complaining about water were just plain not prepared. But, no one can see a thought for what it is nor admit that these people for the most part are not prepared. If you look back you will see that I said folks 25-45 or something like that UNLESS THEY ARE PC....

(PC means physical challanged - and they get all of the credit in the world from all of us. They are doing their best, not the least possible)

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

This post is pretty amusing. I do agree to some extent with the 'elitists' about the competition and bucket list stuff, yet I feel this country has gotten so pathetic I can't fault someone for trying to change thier lives and participating in something active. Never before would I think we would live in a land were the fit and athletic were treated as freaks and being overweight and out of shape was considered the socially acceptable norm.

My wife was 2nd to last at a 5k. She was walking, and there was a group of people at the tail end, an old nun, and lady with a cane. They both wanted to chat but she would have none of it and busted out a 56:00ish 5k, beating out the lady with a cane. I was pretty proud of her and wish she'd do more, but its like pulling teeth. I also can't verify the time as they took down the timer so its not accurate but she did finish second to last. I've tried to get her to take it seriously but she cares more about getting her nails done and the sales at Macy's.

Record10, I'm really glad you PREFER that the BOPers not sign up. In fact, I hope you feel that way about the MOPers too, because this MOPer - and I was literally the middle person in my AG at IMOO this year - won't be at Rockman, or any other race you are associated with.

I'm not sure who you think you are dictating whether other people on this forum have the "proper mindset". Thank goodness we have you here to make sure we're all thinking correctly.

I wouldn't give you the time of day, much less my money.

Incidentally, I have nothing against time limits. They are certainly required first and foremost for safety, but also for logistics and sound business reasons. I do object to people who think they are worthy of judging another person without even thinking about walking, running, or biking in thier shoes.

I don't know how you can differentiate between myself (PC, let's say) and someone who is undertrained, overweight, or bucket listing. We're all in the back of the race together, slogging along, sucking up your resources and clogging up your race course...

My suggestion is that you institute a cut off. You're the RD, make it whatever number you want. 6:00, 6:15... sooner, even. That solves all your problems. Keeps your resources free, and will keep the slow people and first timers and whatnot... at home. Never fear, there are plenty other events that will take their money. Not the best way to build a reputation as a great, friendly, hometown race... but from the rhetoric you're blasting out on the internet... that doesn't seem to be your main concern.

So lets get this straight - you DO think time limits are okay....but then you also feel folks should go their own pace? What one is it (you cant have both). As for proper mindset - when fat ass lazy sloths decide to start training two or three weeks before a marathon and show up, then bitch non stop about not having a personal guide to provide them everything at a seconds notice...suddenly we have an issue. One does not need to look to hard at US races to see folks that are in so terribly far over their heads that it is both dangerous and a terrible show of what the US has become "good enough". Really, why train for an IM? You have 17 hours right? When you go to an IM race and watch the finish line at 11pm and later - you ever wonder what the hell it is that a person who is 32 years old and seemingly fit was doing all day? They cant even maintain a walking pace on the "run" but can pull off a backflip hand spring? (yes, that was this past Moo.)

Now, in this year of tragic deaths at races (mostly in Wi) and when we look at the freaky high DNF rates, rampant cheating, drafting, and then constant bitching about what was not there....where is the sport of Tri going? I would bet in the direction of Marathon....slower and slower and slower. Sure, the top folks will stay right where they are but the bell curve of the Avg. time is getting a very fat belly.

Now, as for the BOP folks it is just a FACT that it is very costly to keep the services out there for the trailing edge of a race. It is awesome to read race reports about folks who complain the aid stations were gone and the water was warm...things like this can happen when you have a 70 min swim, 12mph bike and shuffle an entire run. This is the same that happened at Chicago, only in mass. People (and LOTS of them) were not even to the half way point at hour three....so, we now know that first off they are not going to make the 6 hour limit, and second even if the course does close at hour six - the RD still has liability for what happens as part of the race. Do we now send out bus and pick folks up once we know they can not possibly make a time cut off - or is that just hope they dont sign up?

I for one am at least honest enough to say what I have heard many many other RD's say in my 20+ years of racing bikes, Tri, running and on and on and on. A local 10k had a police charge go about $700 over their budget...paying police over time waiting for a person to walk, feed ducks, hang out, send text messages and just plain lolly gag....this is not a far cry from some of the folks I have seen at Marathons who want to just go out and walk with their buddies and chat it up during a race (oddly, often wearing purple). So, is it mean to say the woman who fed ducks during a 10k should not have been there? Is that mean?

And for "walking in their shoes"...I love that at IM. Finishing an IM has not made one persons life in any place or way better the following morning. It is a nice life goal, but as we have seen - this is something that any average Joe can do. Walk in their shoes? Oh, what passion - for something they signed up and paid for. Seemingly they knew what they were in for (but for the guy this year at IMoo who quit on the bike course and threw his helmet yelling at a support helper "this is bullshit, this is all bullshit and they didnt say it was like this" - he oddly was on a VERY high end bike and no less than 40lbs over weight. He made it to the first loop to Sauk Pass....to the bottom where he DNF'ed). If someone wants me to feel for them cause I have never walked in their shoes...they had better be trying to feed their kids by doing something miserable, paying for a race and showing up just does not cut it for me as being some noble thing. (again, we leave otu the PC folks, folks who got a new heart and are there to prove they can - I think this is where you need to draw a line as to what my point is).

So what it is...time limits or not?

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

I think that some sort of time limit needs to exist, but I also think that it would be very difficult to set a limit that will accomodate all of the age groups racing fairly. If I look at some of the 70.3 results for IM branded races, winning AG times can be 6:00:00 plus, and these folks are definitely racing, and racing hard.

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We have enough youth, how about a fountain of smart!?!

That's the rub. If you have a time limit to accommodate the older racers that are going flat out to get that 6-7 hours, then how do you enforce it for the 300 lb schlub in the 20-24 AG that just flat out sucks because he didn't train?

While I may not agree with some of Chips rhetoric, I can see some of his points.

I really do think that HIM, IM events need qualifiers. You have to finish an Olympic in a certain time to be able to sign up for HIM and IM events. I am of the opinion it would help with the safety, crowding of the courses, etc. and go a long way to making this sport fun for more people. Yeah, you're gonna lose some bucketlisters out there for bragging rights at the office watercooler, but is that really such a bad thing?

At one of my early sprints (Sprint, not Oly, HIM or other, a f'n sprint), there were people abandoning the swim within 100m because they couldn't swim with their crutch (errr...wetsuit). I know one of them was using it as a "get used to it" race before she participated in IMAz this year.

Now, I'm sure all the bucket listers will jump in and tell me she has all summer to train, etc etc, and that may be true. But if you can't complete a 400m swim in an oversized bathtub without bailing out, maybe you should rethink that IM plan just a bit.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

I am of the opinion it would help with the safety, crowding of the courses, etc. and go a long way to making this sport fun for more people. Yeah, you're gonna lose some bucketlisters out there for bragging rights at the office watercooler, but is that really such a bad thing?

At one of my early sprints (Sprint, not Oly, HIM or other, a f'n sprint), there were people abandoning the swim within 100m because they couldn't swim with their crutch (errr...wetsuit). I know one of them was using it as a "get used to it" race before she participated in IMAz this year.

Now, I'm sure all the bucket listers will jump in and tell me she has all summer to train, etc etc, and that may be true. But if you can't complete a 400m swim in an oversized bathtub without bailing out, maybe you should rethink that IM plan just a bit.

John[/reply]
Safety has nothing to do with speed, but a lot to do with experience. So requiring exerience may make sense, i.e. no IM in year one of your tri training. You have to do a HIM or two first for instance before register for IM. From what i've seen with Marathon deaths and discussion of who had the most problems in the 2007 Chicago Marathon, it was not the slow runners. I have not heard of any slow runners dying of a Heart attack. Most have been experience runners who just had an unknown problem. And we had a lengthy discussion about Chicago 07 on Hal Higdons site, The people ending up in the hospitals in Chicago 2007 were more likely to be the middle of the packers who didn't want to give up on their PR dreams. Slow people knew to take easy from the start or quit. That was not scientific study, just observations.

How do slow people mess up your race if you are so fast? Granted, Tri's are difficult becuase a fast swimmer could be a slow biker, but if they understand the rules/ettiquette, you shouldn't be bothered by passing them. Most slow people are going to stay on the outside in the swim and on the right on the bike. You'll soon fly by us and never see us again.

If you want million dollar paydays like the Marathon Majors, you have to encourage more people to participate so that advertisers take notice and the big bucks become available through sponsors and entry fees. Even Boston understands this, otherwise they would have kept their 2:50 standard and have far less participants.

My races, and Iron races have always had time limits. Money...most RD's (myelf included) dont make money - the events are to benifit charities.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

The Tris and many running races in my area (philly,NJ, Del, MD) are owned by the RD and make him/her money. Granted it is a second job so they are not getting rich doing this, but it is a business. Even the ones done for charity make money, as the charity pays for the rd. The local bike, running, and mtb club all have races for charities, but those are a minority of the local racing. Successful RD's are generally very friendly and make people feel like they are appreciated for attending their race. I know they would not come on a forum and ridicule customers and potential customers. I've actually had discussions about stragglers with them when I was racing injured and they were glad to have me and said not to worry about. they might be tearing things down when I came in, but not to worry. But if you want to laugh at the slow people then that's your choice as it is anyone's choice to skip your races.

Ahhhh...that is you. Most folks get quite irate when they see aid stations being torn down. They expect voulenteers to be waiting at every aid station for them (as they cross mile six on the run at hour six). Police want to leave and services are shut down.

You need to be sure you read what I posted. I have no beef wtih BOP folks, it is the WAY WAY BOP folks who never had any cause to enter an event in the first place. In any other business model these folks would not be so rude to the "business". So, with this time limit thing...when folks who are in way over their heads and this is a known at the onset of a Mary - do we pull them from the course? It would be pretty clear by mile 6 some folks could not possibly finish within the given time period. So...then what? They should not sign up for a race that they can not finish in the allowed time. Sorta like the fact that I should not be in the 95-100mph batting cages at the miniput place - if I was, I would just plain be in over my head. Oddly, folks here just cant seem to get the comparisons, nor the fact that too many folks do not take personal responcibility for what they get themselves into.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Kinda funny to see you getting flamed for being a prick of an RD

And to think i was gonna come and do Rockman, stay in your house and borrow your bike...glad I now see that you hate slow people so I can stay away ;-)

Seriously, is anyone really arguing that the time limits for IM and HIM's are too short? 17 hours is plenty long to suffer. If you can't get it done by then maybe a different goal is in order. As for a marathon, there are plenty of walking events that are 26.2 distance. The breast cancer stuff comes to mind. They are set up for walkers. My mom and her friends did the one in NC a few years after she had brain surgery and could not run anymore. They had tents to stop and have lunch, entertainment etc. If you are going to take 6 hours or so to cover 26.2 I think that would be a better venue than NYC or Chicago or somewhere else, No? Really at 6 hours it is more hiking/treking than racing, why not go somewhere scenic? I have done Chicago, it is not a very scenic marathon.

FWIW when I see bigger/older folks out on the course grinding it out long after most people are done I fully recognize how painful it must be for them and that it is likely a harder effort than what I did.

I for one am not upset by your wanting time limits. Current timelimits are reasonable. Others may disagree I don't think many people commented about your desire for timelimits. It is your disdain for slow people. Here are some quotes from your posts....

...more than half of the folks who are at a mary any more are just fat ass' trying to get a shirt and medal....looking to one day tell a story about the saga and suffering of their 11 minute pace "race".

...Where it becomes laughable is when people will spend the few weeks after their "race" bragging about their BOP finish...

And as for my race - I PREFER that the knoingly BOP folks NOT sign up.

Oh, and I now regret not shooting a few of that guy in the speedo and wife beater...it was the pimples on his hind side that were just too much to take.

You impune the motives of half the marathoners, make fun of slow and fat people, want to take pictures of people so you can further enjoy your poking fun at people.

If you really think what you have written, you owe it to yourself and your race to post your comments on your race website. That would help make sure only the proper racers/participants (per your definition) sign up for your race.