two takeaways:

1) how many cyclists were barely passing him during that mile and wondering: "wtf?"
2) zwift has an achievement for a sub 5 minute mile. who knew?

funny thing when you watch this vid a second or third time is the way the zwift community reacts (or doesn't). as a seasoned and regular zwifter i wondered what it must have seemed like if you're a cyclist, here's a user, a.famiglietti, running 3:58 pace (then quickening to 3:40-something pace at the end). and it's very clear on your "zwifters near you" inset on the right this is what's happening. but the messages you see - "how did the conference call go?" - show you that people were either oblivious or dumbstruck. or disbelieving.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Or tend to not pay attention to the runners on the feed. I know I barely notice them.

Plus, a 4 minute mile is only 15 mph, so a pretty leisurely pace.

It is surprising this wasn't publicised more. I'm sure he could have had a whole group ride or run built around it.

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Strava

thing is, runners are well differentiated in the "zwifters near you" column. maybe it's not as clear when you're in cycling mode? i don't know. i'll look for that during my next ride. but when i run on zwift you see mph for cyclists in that column, but you see minutes per mile pace for runners. if i saw some guy running 3:58 per mile, whether running or riding on zwift, i'd notice. especially if i was riding 20mph and barely moving past a runner!

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Very impressive. What was his cadence? Did they have to 'calibrate' the treadmill or anything beforehand to make sure it/Zwift was measuring the correct distance?

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Matt

don't know the cadence but it's easy to get from the video. yes, i couldn't find it in any of the video coverage but i saw, sitting on the ground next to the mill, a measuring wheel. for those interested, here's what he ran in:



it appears the skechers gorun razor 3 hyper, 6.4oz in size 9.

and btw, fam has the distinction (i think) of running a sub-4 mile more ways than anyone: on the track, on the road, on a treadmill, and with a dog ;-)

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

So the other night you an I were having this debate about whether or not the treadmill is faster or slower than the road, and I think I found the answer, at least for this guys runs. Seems like this is not his first treadmill sub 4, and by all measures, he is not yet a legitimate sub 4 minute miler post 40 years old, and now he is 41. His PR is 3;55+ in his prime, and in this last race he did, he kept going for another 15 seconds after 3;55, presumably at 3;40 pace??

So I think we can safely say that at ultra high speeds, the treadmill is easier than the actual road or track. I had postulated not just the ease of gravity, but there is 0 wind resistance too. It looks to me that he got at least 5 seconds advantage over the mile, maybe a bit more as he kept going for another 15 seconds..Part of the treadmill conundrum when trying to get exact protocols to mimic road and track times..

https://www.si.com/...inute-mile-dog-video

it seems like the mill is faster than a dog-assist.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Ya, I loved that mile he did with the dog, seemed like a fair fight!! And Just like every dog we have ever known(except Spike), they go out too hard and then just hang on to the end..

Bio_McGeek says he's measured CdA for runners at around 0.4 m^2.

Congrats to fam.

How slowman viewed or his disdain for the Nike sub 2 adventure is pretty much how I view anything zwift related. I think zwift is cool AF but it's an indoor simulator.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

my problem with nike's thing - and a lot of *things* - arises when the *thing* is confused or conflated with actual, contested, agreed-upon, outdoor sport norms. i don't think anybody believes fam's run is going to be listed by USATF alongside actual ground-covered miles when they publish their annual best times achieved.

but to your zwift point, if this causes you to pee in the cheerios, brooks, your head is going to explode when you learn what i have in mind ;-)

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

ha, we'll i've got a squad of athletes if you need some beta testers......Nah I like zwift for what it can do, I still am "old school" enough to force my squad to ride outdoors as much as possible. But with the advantages, the time saved, the value of everyone's life on the roads these days (probaly the biggest factor of going to indoor riding now); it's like I semi seriously joke "we will be doing zwift triathlon here in about 15 years as our go to triathlon"......Zwift Kona baby!!!!

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

If this record were to count, it would have to be from a dead start. My prediction then would be ~4:15 . Still impressive effort, thats how you are supposed to finish.... dead on the ground!

i just don't think that's "old school". when i was a (reluctant) coach or advisor for IM athletes i really only had 2 kinds of rides that were mandatory, that is, you could ride whatever you wanted, get in the miles however you wanted, but you had to do these 2 specific kinds of workouts and X number of them prior to your race: 100+ mile rides; and specific indoor structured training rides. this second type, these weren't long, maybe 45min to 1hr. but they were important (to me). this was back circa 25 and 30 years ago, so, i guess you're right, it's old school, if you go back so far that there were no computers nor were there stationary trainers.



but even in the "old old school" days there were rollers, and roller races. nothing replaces riding outdoor. or running outdoor. no argument from me on that. but from my own tenure as a competitive runner, which began in 1970, and as a competitive cyclist, which began in 1977 or thereabouts, there has always been some attempt to make stationary less mind numbing.

my only caveat is that most people don't have a "squad" on which they can rely for more than the occasional get-together, and stationary allows for the most precise, no-flat, no-red-light, quantifiable drilldown to a specific goal. there is no easy outdoor cycling analog to running intervals on a track. that's what makes stationary a pretty good tool for that specific purpose. in fact there's a session at Endurance Exchange upcoming on that very topic.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Ha I didn't think you were going to go all philosophical as my comment was more tongue in cheek with today's "everyone is riding indoors". But to prove that I'm not all stone age, this was our weekly Wed ride. 1 of 4 are zwifting (kickr), 2 on dumb trainers, 1 on kickr only.

(nvm i can never ever add a pic for the life of me, and it's just 1 random image but apparently "too large")

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

photoshop is your friend. your expensive friend, that i'll grant!

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dan,

I worked with Fam while at adidas. It’s great to see him still running fast. There were too many bigger things in running to talk about then a guy running sub 4 min on a treadmill. Nike NXN, Russia Ban etc. Or on You Tube everyone was jumping to be first with the new running shoes from TRE.

The question I have for you and the Zwift people. Look around, do runners run on the same roads as cyclists? Cyclists have a reputation in the running community of “Not sharing the road” On the coast highway here in San Diego North County, cyclists (Triathletes included) appear to try to get as close to you the runner as possible without hitting. Runners sometimes wave to each other from across the road. The only triathletes or cyclists to ever wave to me while I was running are the ones I know. I’ve had more flip me off then wave to me. So my question, is it possible running is not growing as fast as Zwift would like it to because it’s one game with cyclists and runners?
The more simple terms is that runners are “cheap”. They know the only thing they need is a pair of shoes (Women of course need a second item). If they need a treadmill (Expense of the treadmill or the gym membership) and a foot pod (treadmills are not catching up on Bluetooth yet, it will take years gyms don’t replace treadmills too often) and then a Zwift membership are you asking the runner to do too much? Running is simple, safe and still the least expensive mode to staying fit. I have always compared the cost of anything in running to a pair of shoes. A Garmin watch was two pairs of shoes. Marathon race entries are a pair of shoes. Try to be an apparel company selling running shorts to men. Anyone, How often do you buy new running shorts?

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Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

https://resizeimage.net/

I find this to be disingenuous. I don't know the specifics of the road you are referring to, but I'm going to assume that the runners are running in either the lane of travel, the bike lane, or the shoulder (if there is no bike lane). Since it's the "highway" I'm also assuming there isn't a sidewalk. I would say "vehicles" have primary right of way in such a situation; I'm including bicycles in that. Pedestrians using that lane of travel should yield to vehicles. But runners often don't yield to the cyclist if they are both in the same path/lane. It's really annoying. As a runner, I always jump off the road (if I'm running on a road that has no sidewalk and am running against "vehicular" traffic) to yield to bikes and/or cars. That's just being polite. In my opinion, the bike has the right of way (or the car). It's on me to yield to them.


Isn't that just magical? What an amazing community.


Have you ever considered that it can be - situationally - more difficult to wave when your hands are required to operate your bicycle safely? I have chosen NOT to wave - at times - because a car is about to pass or I am avoiding gravel or whatever. Saying that "I've had more flip me off than wave to me" as some kind of blanket statement regarding the friendliness of people on bikes is just...dumb.


Running is not cheap.

What a cyclist has to buy to use Zwift is more $$ than what a runner has to buy. An indoor trainer is not required to "be" a cyclist. A powermeter is certainly not required.

The reason running hasn't exploded on Zwift the way cycling has is because it's boring. That will change as Zwift figures out how to make it more interesting, but Zwift faces limitations that they do not with cycling.

 But runners often don't yield to the cyclist if they are both in the same path/lane.

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I always assumed it's vehicles (cars + bikes) having to yield to the runners. That's how I behave atleast. I always give runners space and I guess thinking back to my running days (dont run anymore), I never "yielded" to anyone unless I could tell it was turning into a game of chicken.

Now what I find more annoying is runners not running against traffic. I just think it's safer for runners because you can actually get out of the way more easier than if you get come up from behind. Running against traffic, everything is always in front of you.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Regardless of who is "legally" required to yield, I - when I'm running - always yield because generally speaking it is far easier and less dangerous for me to yield. I can simply step off the road/path whatever if need be.

Fair enough and true, it just got me thinking what I actually see out there in those types of interactions. I've never expected runners to yield when I come up on them biking or driving. While riding I treat them like any other "obstacle".....call out their location "runner up" and move around them. I guess I would find it more annoying with running and stopping/starting all the time if I did have to yield all the time, even though yes you are likely the easiest to get out of the way. Of course running against traffic allows you the easiest way to bale in the event the car/bike didn't yield to you. So as I said I find runners running with traffic more annoying from a safety standpoint.


ETA: But I think in zwift they run with traffic I believe (just noting the flow of traffic on that system)?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I am amazed at how far forward he is running on the tread mill, his feet look they are landing on the front plastic almost every time. I can only imagine the carnage from a missed step at 17 MPH.