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Ventum Z or Argon 18 E- 116
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What bike would you choose and why with fit being the same. Ventum Z with Ultegra and stock 65mm race wheels or new 2016 Argon 18E-116 frame built up with Ultegra DI2 and Hed 6/9 Plus Wheels. thanks
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Re: Ventum Z or Argon 18 E- 116 [mbstri] [ In reply to ]
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Argon with the Di2.

Frame aero is over-rated & I still like the conventional frames personally.

Argons are great riding bikes, plus you have the electronics. I think the 116 you can spare with commodity parts too.

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Re: Ventum Z or Argon 18 E- 116 [mbstri] [ In reply to ]
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Argon. All my friends that have had a Ventum no longer do and none are fans. My friends with Argons love them. I've never ridden either personally but am always inquisitive to about the top brand bikes.
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Re: Ventum Z or Argon 18 E- 116 [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Shambolic wrote:
Argon. All my friends that have had a Ventum no longer do and none are fans. My friends with Argons love them. I've never ridden either personally but am always inquisitive to about the top brand bikes.
What didn’t they like about the ventum?
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Re: Ventum Z or Argon 18 E- 116 [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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The ride quality and handling mainly but in certain conditions. All said it was terrible on climbs.
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Re: Ventum Z or Argon 18 E- 116 [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Shambolic wrote:
The ride quality and handling mainly but in certain conditions. All said it was terrible on climbs.
I thought the handling of the Ventum One was something that was particularly liked, not disliked?
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Re: Ventum Z or Argon 18 E- 116 [dunno] [ In reply to ]
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dunno wrote:
Shambolic wrote:
Argon. All my friends that have had a Ventum no longer do and none are fans. My friends with Argons love them. I've never ridden either personally but am always inquisitive to about the top brand bikes.

What didn’t they like about the ventum?

I had a pro friend whose bottom bracket was not aligned and chewed thru bottom brackets as a result. I had another pro friend who literally threw his hydration off his bike mid-ride and had a mini meltdown said the bike was "POS", the hydration was "worthless". Needless to say I have not ridden with them again. Nothing worse than your friends complaining about a product in private and then singing the praises in public. I realize they sign things that say they can't be ~"critical, disparaging etc". This isn't how I operate and it is actually kind of depressing. And I know some of these athletes were earlier Ventum riders and maybe the kinks have been worked out, but I picked up a Ventum to test ride last year and returned it untested. While setting it up for my fit, I realized, wrenching, that it was a bike I didn't want to work with. Wasn't aero either so another mark against it.

Maybe I have been spoiled by buying bikes that are really nice, and believe me, the first generation Speed Concept draft box was worthless, and the rear brakes were hard to work with, but I am glad they learned and continued to iterate into the SC original gen 2 draft box and the brakes were improved. Then the whole design was iterated in the Gen 2. Maybe Ventum will get there eventually but just doesn't seem like a reason to go Ventum when there are so many other good options out there. I am genuinely interested when I see a Ventum in the wild and really want to stop the person and ask them about the sales process because something is right about it. I don't know what the number is, but I would love to see what the ASP of a Ventum has been. The Z will change things and certainly is a completely different price point but if you look at it the cost difference between the two frames was $4,000 sans the aerobar. The new price point of the Z is much more compelling but I really think the burden of proof lies with Ventum. Why choose a Ventum? Why ride a bike that is less aero and heavier for starters?


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Re: Ventum Z or Argon 18 E- 116 [Benv] [ In reply to ]
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Benv wrote:
Shambolic wrote:
The ride quality and handling mainly but in certain conditions. All said it was terrible on climbs.
I thought the handling of the Ventum One was something that was particularly liked, not disliked?

In benign conditions flat road no wind I think they thought it was ok but outside that and particularly on hills they had issues.
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Re: Ventum Z or Argon 18 E- 116 [mbstri] [ In reply to ]
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mbstri wrote:
What bike would you choose and why with fit being the same. Ventum Z with Ultegra and stock 65mm race wheels or new 2016 Argon 18E-116 frame built up with Ultegra DI2 and Hed 6/9 Plus Wheels. thanks

Hello,

I would love to answer any questions you may have and try and get you on a demo ride.
My email is jimmy@ventumracing.com.

JImmy Seear
Co-Founder Ventum
http://www.ventumracing.com
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Re: Ventum Z or Argon 18 E- 116 [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
dunno wrote:
Shambolic wrote:
Argon. All my friends that have had a Ventum no longer do and none are fans. My friends with Argons love them. I've never ridden either personally but am always inquisitive to about the top brand bikes.

What didn’t they like about the ventum?


I had a pro friend whose bottom bracket was not aligned and chewed thru bottom brackets as a result. I had another pro friend who literally threw his hydration off his bike mid-ride and had a mini meltdown said the bike was "POS", the hydration was "worthless". Needless to say I have not ridden with them again. Nothing worse than your friends complaining about a product in private and then singing the praises in public. I realize they sign things that say they can't be ~"critical, disparaging etc". This isn't how I operate and it is actually kind of depressing. And I know some of these athletes were earlier Ventum riders and maybe the kinks have been worked out, but I picked up a Ventum to test ride last year and returned it untested. While setting it up for my fit, I realized, wrenching, that it was a bike I didn't want to work with. Wasn't aero either so another mark against it.

Maybe I have been spoiled by buying bikes that are really nice, and believe me, the first generation Speed Concept draft box was worthless, and the rear brakes were hard to work with, but I am glad they learned and continued to iterate into the SC original gen 2 draft box and the brakes were improved. Then the whole design was iterated in the Gen 2. Maybe Ventum will get there eventually but just doesn't seem like a reason to go Ventum when there are so many other good options out there. I am genuinely interested when I see a Ventum in the wild and really want to stop the person and ask them about the sales process because something is right about it. I don't know what the number is, but I would love to see what the ASP of a Ventum has been. The Z will change things and certainly is a completely different price point but if you look at it the cost difference between the two frames was $4,000 sans the aerobar. The new price point of the Z is much more compelling but I really think the burden of proof lies with Ventum. Why choose a Ventum? Why ride a bike that is less aero and heavier for starters?


I'm not sure who you talked to, but I've had earnest discussions with most of the Ventum-sponsored pros and I'm not aware of anyone unhappy with the bike. Witness the fact that Ventum has retained almost every pro they've signed. Any athlete can offer constructive criticism about their ride, but the experience among Ventum athletes I've talked to has been overwhelmingly positive. I turned down offers from half a dozen bike companies and held out for years before signing with Ventum three years ago. It was the best sponsorship decision I've made and I've been completely satisfied with the bike. You must take any sponsored pro's endorsement with a grain of salt, but I'll attempt to offer a balanced look at some things I like and dislike about the Ventum:

Likes

Aero - My personal experience with this bike has convinced me that it's among the most aero on the market. I published impressive results from my first trip to the wind tunnel on my blog (CdA ~0.216 m² at 6' tall, even without some finishing touches). This bears out in the real world: I've ridden the fastest bike split at three out of my last four 70.3 races, excluding my flat tire in Texas last weekend. I publish my power numbers after most races and they're fairly unremarkable for ~72 kg pro (usually 290-310 W average). Slowtwitch likes to reference the recent Bike Shootout, which ranked Ventum behind some other bikes. I don't read much into this data point, since the Ventum was the only bike tested without a front hydration system. In my aero testing in the wind tunnel and with the STAC Virutal Wind Tunnel, a front aero bottle has always provided significant drag savings on the Ventum, enough to close the gap to other bikes in that test. I recognize the difficulties in setting up test protocols and applaud any effort to collect comparative aero data, but I believe this one factor skewed the results against Ventum.

Hydration - In my opinion, the hydration system is one of the bike's finest features. I use it all the time for training and racing. I'm hard pressed to find a more integrated, aerodynamic, elegant and functional way to carry 1.4 L (almost two bottles worth) of fluids. I think I've only picked up two bottles at aid stations over the 2.5 years I've been racing a Ventum in 70.3s! Since I can carry all the fluids I need, it's awesome to blow through aid stations and even attack there!

Adaptability/ease of use - Despite it's integrated look, the Ventum One actually uses mostly standard parts, offering great flexibility with fit and customization. You can put on any bar or extensions, it takes standard direct mount brakes, standard steerer tube if you ever wanted to swap the fork, and very few proprietary parts. This is important to me for a few reasons. I do all my own work on my bike, I travel to races in far-flung places with limited access to parts, and I'm also cheap af. I can carry every spare and tool I need to fix almost any conceivable issue in a little travel case. Like any high end bike, there's a learning curve to wrenching some parts of the Ventum, but I haven't found it challenging at all.

Dislikes / Room for Improvement


Weight - Like many other current generation highly integrated bikes, the Ventum is a little chunky, though still lighter than some like the P5X. I should't have to remind the ST crowd that even modest savings in drag trump added weight when it comes to performance. My understanding is that Ventum deliberately erred on the side of caution with their first bike, building in large safety factors. This is reflected in Ventum's extremely low number of warranty returns. I assume they figured that any perceived safety or QC issue could sink a bike startup, so they overbuilt it a little. Look for the next generation to drop some weight as the engineering team refines the design and layup. Personally, I don't mind a little extra weight for some added peace of mind and a near negligible performance penalty. I was grateful for this when I clocked a curb at high speed in Brazil without any damage!

Front brake - It can be finicky to set up perfectly. There's not a lot of clearance under the fairing and the brake can rub on wide rims unless carefully centered. At least it's not proprietary, coming stock with a standard TRP direct mount. Thankfully, braking performance is quite adequate, unlike some other integrated and aero front brakes I've used.

Aero bar tilt adjustability - The stock aero bars are highly adjustable and apparently pretty aero, but missing one nice feature: the ability to adjust the incline of the pads and extensions. Ventum looked into this, but found it difficult to design around patents held by other companies. I run Zipp Vuka Aero 110 extensions which have a fair bit of rise. Since the pads remain flat, this can create some pressure along the back of the pads. This can be mitigated with thicker padding or custom armrests, but it's my one quibble with comfort and fit. You can always put on another aerobar that offers tilt adjustability if it's an issue.

Hope this mini-review helps. Feel free to ask any questions!

CodyBeals.com | Instagram | TikTok
ASICS | Ventum | Martin's | HED | VARLO | Shimano | 4iiii | Keystone Communications
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Re: Ventum Z or Argon 18 E- 116 [Cody Beals] [ In reply to ]
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Cody Beals wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
dunno wrote:
Shambolic wrote:
Argon. All my friends that have had a Ventum no longer do and none are fans. My friends with Argons love them. I've never ridden either personally but am always inquisitive to about the top brand bikes.

What didn’t they like about the ventum?


I had a pro friend whose bottom bracket was not aligned and chewed thru bottom brackets as a result. I had another pro friend who literally threw his hydration off his bike mid-ride and had a mini meltdown said the bike was "POS", the hydration was "worthless". Needless to say I have not ridden with them again. Nothing worse than your friends complaining about a product in private and then singing the praises in public. I realize they sign things that say they can't be ~"critical, disparaging etc". This isn't how I operate and it is actually kind of depressing. And I know some of these athletes were earlier Ventum riders and maybe the kinks have been worked out, but I picked up a Ventum to test ride last year and returned it untested. While setting it up for my fit, I realized, wrenching, that it was a bike I didn't want to work with. Wasn't aero either so another mark against it.

Maybe I have been spoiled by buying bikes that are really nice, and believe me, the first generation Speed Concept draft box was worthless, and the rear brakes were hard to work with, but I am glad they learned and continued to iterate into the SC original gen 2 draft box and the brakes were improved. Then the whole design was iterated in the Gen 2. Maybe Ventum will get there eventually but just doesn't seem like a reason to go Ventum when there are so many other good options out there. I am genuinely interested when I see a Ventum in the wild and really want to stop the person and ask them about the sales process because something is right about it. I don't know what the number is, but I would love to see what the ASP of a Ventum has been. The Z will change things and certainly is a completely different price point but if you look at it the cost difference between the two frames was $4,000 sans the aerobar. The new price point of the Z is much more compelling but I really think the burden of proof lies with Ventum. Why choose a Ventum? Why ride a bike that is less aero and heavier for starters?


I'm not sure who you talked to, but I've had earnest discussions with most of the Ventum-sponsored pros and I'm not aware of anyone unhappy with the bike. Witness the fact that Ventum has retained almost every pro they've signed. Any athlete can offer constructive criticism about their ride, but the experience among Ventum athletes I've talked to has been overwhelmingly positive. I turned down offers from half a dozen bike companies and held out for years before signing with Ventum three years ago. It was the best sponsorship decision I've made and I've been completely satisfied with the bike. You must take any sponsored pro's endorsement with a grain of salt, but I'll attempt to offer a balanced look at some things I like and dislike about the Ventum:

Likes

Aero - My personal experience with this bike has convinced me that it's among the most aero on the market. I published impressive results from my first trip to the wind tunnel on my blog (CdA ~0.216 m² at 6' tall, even without some finishing touches). This bears out in the real world: I've ridden the fastest bike split at three out of my last four 70.3 races, excluding my flat tire in Texas last weekend. I publish my power numbers after most races and they're fairly unremarkable for ~72 kg pro (usually 290-310 W average). Slowtwitch likes to reference the recent Bike Shootout, which ranked Ventum behind some other bikes. I don't read much into this data point, since the Ventum was the only bike tested without a front hydration system. In my aero testing in the wind tunnel and with the STAC Virutal Wind Tunnel, a front aero bottle has always provided significant drag savings on the Ventum, enough to close the gap to other bikes in that test. I recognize the difficulties in setting up test protocols and applaud any effort to collect comparative aero data, but I believe this one factor skewed the results against Ventum.

Hydration - In my opinion, the hydration system is one of the bike's finest features. I use it all the time for training and racing. I'm hard pressed to find a more integrated, aerodynamic, elegant and functional way to carry 1.4 L (almost two bottles worth) of fluids. I think I've only picked up two bottles at aid stations over the 2.5 years I've been racing a Ventum in 70.3s! Since I can carry all the fluids I need, it's awesome to blow through aid stations and even attack there!

Adaptability/ease of use - Despite it's integrated look, the Ventum One actually uses mostly standard parts, offering great flexibility with fit and customization. You can put on any bar or extensions, it takes standard direct mount brakes, standard steerer tube if you ever wanted to swap the fork, and very few proprietary parts. This is important to me for a few reasons. I do all my own work on my bike, I travel to races in far-flung places with limited access to parts, and I'm also cheap af. I can carry every spare and tool I need to fix almost any conceivable issue in a little travel case. Like any high end bike, there's a learning curve to wrenching some parts of the Ventum, but I haven't found it challenging at all.

Dislikes / Room for Improvement


Weight - Like many other current generation highly integrated bikes, the Ventum is a little chunky, though still lighter than some like the P5X. I should't have to remind the ST crowd that even modest savings in drag trump added weight when it comes to performance. My understanding is that Ventum deliberately erred on the side of caution with their first bike, building in large safety factors. This is reflected in Ventum's extremely low number of warranty returns. I assume they figured that any perceived safety or QC issue could sink a bike startup, so they overbuilt it a little. Look for the next generation to drop some weight as the engineering team refines the design and layup. Personally, I don't mind a little extra weight for some added peace of mind and a near negligible performance penalty. I was grateful for this when I clocked a curb at high speed in Brazil without any damage!

Front brake - It can be finicky to set up perfectly. There's not a lot of clearance under the fairing and the brake can rub on wide rims unless carefully centered. At least it's not proprietary, coming stock with a standard TRP direct mount. Thankfully, braking performance is quite adequate, unlike some other integrated and aero front brakes I've used.

Aero bar tilt adjustability - The stock aero bars are highly adjustable and apparently pretty aero, but missing one nice feature: the ability to adjust the incline of the pads and extensions. Ventum looked into this, but found it difficult to design around patents held by other companies. I run Zipp Vuka Aero 110 extensions which have a fair bit of rise. Since the pads remain flat, this can create some pressure along the back of the pads. This can be mitigated with thicker padding or custom armrests, but it's my one quibble with comfort and fit. You can always put on another aerobar that offers tilt adjustability if it's an issue.

Hope this mini-review helps. Feel free to ask any questions!

Thank you for the follow-up and review. We can quibble about aero. My gut feeling is that if you took your old P4, the one from Eagleman in 2015, I think you would test faster in the same position on it. As we discussed personally, looking at everyone who raced in both 2015 and 2016, your performance stands out and not in the best way. In 2016 you were on a Ventum and slower when everyone was faster. Now as I think we both can agree (as we talked about it as well) there are other factors that could have played a role. However, that is where is my second data point comes in being the Bike Shootout. My 3rd data point would be from Ventum if they ever actually posted that A2 wind tunnel data like they said they would on here in one of the original Ventum threads. I really don't think the Ventum is of the same aero caliber as other bikes out there, simply as that for me.

The hydration might be nice for some and I can see that as a reasonable selling point. For me it is not, I don't pick up bottles either in an 70.3 and the idea of squeezing a bottle into the reservoir while trying to navigate a nasty aid station is not ideal. I know you do a lot of 70.3s, but you should see what 2nd, 3rd lap of looped Ironman courses can be like, it can be like a landmine, and personally I like to grab a bottle, replace it immediately, and get clear thru the aid station. Who needs the stress of trying to refill in such a short window.

As far as the big companies go, I do like knowing just how much they invest in to R&D, production, supply chain, QC, and distribution. Having great scale allows this, but having experience with lots of users riding in different environments and breaking things and then fixing those flaws is a really nice feature of a critical component of an otherwise dangerous sport. I don't think we can put a $$$ value into what Cervelo, Trek, or Specialized has from that experience. I do like that Ventum has been around for longer now and I haven't heard of any incredible horror stories which has been earning my trust. It was enough that I thought I should actually test it out it so I can speak to it.

I'm not huge fan of any brand that comes in at a price point of the incumbent and hopes to be competitive without some sort of ground-breaking design. However, they have managed to get more bikes on the Kona pier and the Z is certainly a lot more affordable and it seems they are going in the right direction. I really do think we have too many bike brands and I am not sure how they can all exists. It will be interesting to see where this space is in 2020.


Save: $50 on Speed Hound Recovery Boots | $20 on Air Relax| $100 on Normatec| 15% on Most Absorbable Magnesium

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Re: Ventum Z or Argon 18 E- 116 [mbstri] [ In reply to ]
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Argon. I have the 118 NEXT, absolutely love it. Have ridden 3 previous different brands.

Colorado Triathlon Company, CO2UT 2021, Crooked Gravel 2022, Steamboat Gravel 2022
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Re: Ventum Z or Argon 18 E- 116 [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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I agree that my old P4 was a really aero bike. I had the 3T Ventus I aerobar on there, the one that was recalled. That was perhaps the most aero bar ever made, but suicidal in the rain and scary when paired with the P4's notoriously awful rear brake and an aero front brake. That was indirectly responsible for my front tire blowout on the switchback descent at 70.3 Worlds in Austria since I was dragging the brakes and overheated the carbon rim. I gladly traded a little drag for a more functional and safer bar. I was also riding really well then, putting out similar power to now at a lighter weight and with a lower position. Looking at the general trend in my races and not just one race, I've improved as a cyclist and I also run much better off the bike since I moved to the Ventum.

I hear you about refilling bottles on the fly. I don't do this and never plan to. This is one reason I carry a standard round bottle between my arms. That's what I swap out at aid stations if need be. For Ironman, I would probably also have a bottle cage behind my saddle, even if it starts empty.

I'm glad to see the more affordable Z come along because I know that the price tag on the Ventum One wasn't affordable for many athletes. I like to be able to recommend my sponsors to athletes, not just as the best performing available, but also as the best value.

The tri bike retail space is certainly crowded right now. It'll be interesting to see how that shakes out over the coming years.

CodyBeals.com | Instagram | TikTok
ASICS | Ventum | Martin's | HED | VARLO | Shimano | 4iiii | Keystone Communications
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Re: Ventum Z or Argon 18 E- 116 [mbstri] [ In reply to ]
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I would highly recommend the Ventum. Both me and my wife own and race Ventum One's and couldn't be happier. Reading the post about how the bottom bracket swayed and losing the hydration mid-ride is downright confusing to me... not doubting the validity of the poster, but I can only speak from personal experience; the bottom bracket is about as stiff as I've ever seen on any bike. I used to be a sprinter and can still pack a healthy punch (topping over 1300W in a sprint even today), the Ventum has been a stiff as my BMC TM01 (which is not a slinky bike...) and it honestly feels like all energy is going exactly where I want it to, into the ground. The hydration has been one of the best features, always available and super stable. I would say it's actually quite a bit more secure than a bottle cage.

Personally, I would NOT trade my Ventum for anything. It's extremely comfortable, as stiff as I ever need it to be and handles like a dream. By a long shot the best tri bike I've ever owned (it's been about 8-10 bikes over the last 15 years... so I do have a decent reference).

I bet the Argon18 E-116 is a very good bike as well, so it's not like you can go wrong here.

"Suddenly the thought struck me. My floor is someone elses ceiling"-Nils Ferlin
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Re: Ventum Z or Argon 18 E- 116 [Benv] [ In reply to ]
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Benv wrote:
Shambolic wrote:
The ride quality and handling mainly but in certain conditions. All said it was terrible on climbs.
I thought the handling of the Ventum One was something that was particularly liked, not disliked?

It is. I know a lot of Ventum riders and they love the way it handles. I’m a big guy who descends hard and fast. The bike handles really well with anything I throw at it.

Salton Sea Triathlon Club
“I swim to get to the bike. I run because nobody gives a shit about aquabike.”
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Re: Ventum Z or Argon 18 E- 116 [mbstri] [ In reply to ]
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Ventum for sure. Really fantastic machine. A year later and I’m more in love than ever!

Salton Sea Triathlon Club
“I swim to get to the bike. I run because nobody gives a shit about aquabike.”
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Re: Ventum Z or Argon 18 E- 116 [mbstri] [ In reply to ]
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mbstri wrote:
What bike would you choose and why with fit being the same. Ventum Z with Ultegra and stock 65mm race wheels or new 2016 Argon 18E-116 frame built up with Ultegra DI2 and Hed 6/9 Plus Wheels. thanks

Did you consider OMNI? If so what was your reasoning for Ventum?
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