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Ventoux, Pantani and Armstrong
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Last night I had the pleasure of watching the 2000 TdF stage to the summit of Ventoux. Even though we all know the outcome the commentary of Paul Sherwin and Phil Leggat was riveting as usual. In Paul Sherwin's words, Pantani had gotten dropped 6 times on the lower slopes of the geant du Provence, but each time fought his way back to reattach to an elite group of cyclists that include Lance, Heras (Kelme), Virenque, Botero (Kelme), Beloki (Festina) and Ullrich. Back then, Botero and Beloki were the "revelations' of the Tour. Pantani kept fighting back and then on the barren roads to the summit, initiated multiple attacks. It was awesome.

The question I ask you, "When you are ride and get spit out by the group multiple time and fight to reattach, have you ever then had the guts to attack, knowing you were the weakest earlier ?". Call him crazy or courageous, but his attacks were fabulous on that day.

Whether Lance gave him the stage or not at the top is a matter that can be debated forever. The sheer guts of Pantani to attack or die is that of champion. I still get as much entertainment value out of this as I do watching Sosa, Bonds or McGuire bang out 60+ home runs per season. We don't know totally what these guys were on to get those numbers, but it was fun watching. So was the 1988 100 m finals with the like of Ben Johnson, Carl Lewis and Linford Christie in a drag race. All were nailed either publicly or privately for use/alleged use of banned substance. Still was fun to watch as a fan.



Finally, I head there are three ways to summit Ventoux. I'll be riding there this summer. Any suggestions on which route/routes ?
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Re: Ventoux, Pantani and Armstrong [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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The question I ask you, "When you are ride and get spit out by the group multiple time and fight to reattach, have you ever then had the guts to attack, knowing you were the weakest earlier ?". Call him crazy or courageous, but his attacks were fabulous on that day.


Pantani was a warrior.

He was a drug cheat, but he was a warrior. Funny you should mention Bonds, McGuire and Sosa in the same post. Also drug cheats. Also warriors. Sometimes the warrior in these guys overwhelms their consience, and they are willing to cross a line that even warriors shouldn't cross.
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Re: Ventoux, Pantani and Armstrong [Julian] [ In reply to ]
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The guy is dead and still can't dodge the drug allegations. That last post is gonna fan some flames.
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Re: Ventoux, Pantani and Armstrong [Kentiger] [ In reply to ]
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Huh???

Why should we be perplexed by his inability, even in death, to "dodge the drug cheat " allegations", if all signs now point to him having died of a cocaine overdose?

Caring is fine, so is sympathy.

But the facts strongly suggest this was not a guy who was at all averse to
  • breaking the rules,
  • breaking the law (cocaine),
  • blaming others for his own failings, and
  • putting dangerous stuff into his body.


The "Pantani as victim" was already starting to wear thin by 1999 or so...
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Re: Ventoux, Pantani and Armstrong [alpedhuez] [ In reply to ]
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Not gonna claim the guy is a victim but how many funerals have you gone to where everyone stood around and dug up every little tidbit of dirt on the deceased persons life. The guy is dead..he was a hero to some or a cheat to others..but he's still dead. What's the point in beating a dead elaphantino at this point. It does show a lot of class to slag someone unable to rebut. There are tons of 'live' drug cheats still out there..why not make the effort to slag them and have them join Marco. Try putting yourself in the guys shoes (while he was still alive would be better)...I can't even begin to imagine how much pressure pros feel to keep bringing home the bacon. Until you've been there..felt the glory and the dismay you have no right to judge anyone.
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Re: Ventoux, Pantani and Armstrong [alpedhuez] [ In reply to ]
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FWIW, evidently the cocaine habit was not something that started all that recently -- see the "Last Taboo" thread.

That insane incident a few years back where he managed to crash his car into numerous parked vehicles over the course of several minutes is starting to seem a little more understandable.
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Re: Ventoux, Pantani and Armstrong [alpedhuez] [ In reply to ]
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I guess we can all slag Jan Ullrich when he passes on too. He did do those recreational pharmaceuticals during his year off right? He's a cheat too...he shouldn't even be allowed to race the Tour
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Re: Ventoux, Pantani and Armstrong [Kentiger] [ In reply to ]
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Not gonna claim the guy is a victim but how many funerals have you gone to where everyone stood around and dug up every little tidbit of dirt on the deceased persons life.


I'm not digging up dirt on anybody, I am merely recounting the No. 1 story about his life as a bike racer.

If drug cheats have the idea that, in death, all will be forgotten and forgiven, then we cannot hope to make progress against drug use. I will never forget Pantani's courage, but I will also never forget that he was a drug cheat who did not come by his victories fairly. And, I have the utmost sympathy for his family -- and profound pity for him.

One day long from now, Barry Bonds will pass. I will be sad for his kids and his family, and I will always remember that he was a drug cheat for whom a hall-of-fame career wasn't enough.
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Re: Ventoux, Pantani and Armstrong [Kentiger] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I can't even begin to imagine how much pressure pros feel to keep bringing home the bacon. Until you've been there..felt the glory and the dismay you have no right to judge anyone.


Gosh -- athletes sure are special. Cops don't have any pressures. Just got back yesterday from the Persian Gulf -- our troops there aren't under any pressure.

Teachers aren't. Your neighbor next door trying to make this month's sales quota and keep his job isn't.

No wonder they all cheat, and virtually all of them are cocaine addicts.

But Pantani could climb very well on a bike, so all is acceptable.

Glory and dismay -- get real. He was an extremely well paid, extremely pampered athlete who could always find a job long after his work ethic disappeared..
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Re: Ventoux, Pantani and Armstrong [Julian] [ In reply to ]
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This is a little off to the side here but my brother is a baseball writer and he has friends inside the game who know who is who and what is what. Seems that the people on the Balco bad boy list are Sheffield and Giambi, but not Bonds (who I am not a fan of). Word from the inside is that Bonds was way to smart about it all. Obviously could turn out to be otherwise but lets not hang everyone just because they "might" be guilty.
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Re: Ventoux, Pantani and Armstrong [alpedhuez] [ In reply to ]
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Wow...I guess a sympathetic bone would weigh you down in a race or something..maybe that's why you're so bitter. Crap man..someone needs to see a therapist or something. Not sure how the rant about everyone elses job got thrown into the mix (yeah we all feel pressure to perform). Can't say that I have ever felt that if I didn't do my job that an entire nation would be let down...that suddenly my usefullness as a human being would suddenly be in question (since it's the only thing I can do). I too think athletes are overglorified (not even most of the time) but isn't us that give them that status? Aren't we the ones buying their bikes, their shoes, their whatever. And when they suddenly become yesterdays news when someone else wins and not them aren't we the ones cutting off their bankroll. I mean who wants to keep a hasbeen on the team one second longer then the public demands victory. I won't make excuses for anyone who uses drugs..it's wrong plain and simple. I'm saying it's just disrespectful and ignorant to do it when the person is dead...athlete or not.
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Re: Ventoux, Pantani and Armstrong [Kentiger] [ In reply to ]
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Well as I said above, caring is fine, and so is sympathy. Also said on the other thread that I hope Marco finds more peace in the next life than he did in this one. Nor do I see his use of cocaine as moral lassitude -- just tragic.

Marco Pantani's biggest tormenter and demon -- the entity that undid him -- was not the press, not the courts, not the UCI... it was Marco Pantani.

As for the adulation of the tifosi, this was hardly something Pantani shirked -- he was the least reluctant celebrity this side of Richard Virenque. He took to speaking of himself in the regal third person "Pantani believes ___", or "tomorrow, Pantani will ___". He tried to give himself nicknames -- "from now on, call me il Pirata'". You can buy Pantani bandanas, Pantani saddles (complete with Pantani-as-Pirati logos stitched into the top), etc., etc. All licensed with the self-promotion of a Janet Jackson or a young Madonna.

He faced no more pressure than the lowest domestique does trying to maintain his spot on a squad and avoid the dole. No one holds a gun to your head and tells you you have to be the squadra captain on pro cycling team. Was it overblown -- probably so, and likely voluntarily so. Maybe he should have said to the tifosi: "you shouldn't really adore or idolize me so much... Frankly I climb well in part because I weigh 20 kilos less than Indurain, and in part 'cause I'm juiced"?

His is a tragic story -- that doesn't excuse his hypocrisy and his attempt to claim victim staus in the final stages of his career. It's the guys who don't win but don't cheat or take themselves down who I'm more inclined to empathize with. If you haven't already, read Paul Kimmage's A Rough Ride.

I don't think that's "bitter", "disrespectful', or a "rant" -- just a little more clear-eyed. Something the tifosi obviously weren't, and which he wouldn't have liked had they been.
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Re: Ventoux, Pantani and Armstrong [Julian] [ In reply to ]
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All I was saying that the man was a warrior regardless of what he may or may not have taken. Athletes are human too as other posters have pointed out. Either way, many years from now, he will be remembered for his heroics on Ventoux and other mountains etc.



Anyway, any recommendations on which of three Ventoux ascent/descent routes to ride ?
Last edited by: devashish paul: Feb 23, 04 10:15
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Re: Ventoux, Pantani and Armstrong [alpedhuez] [ In reply to ]
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Fair enough and well put alp..I must concede. Guess I just got a tad offended by the (IMHO) harsh tone you took. And I failed to see your 'hope he finds peace' comment. My appologies. I still hold to the fact than when any high profile individual loses the battle with self respect we all share some of the weight for putting them in that position. I'll give the war to you on this debate..just wish it were handled with a bit more tact I suppose.
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Re: Ventoux, Pantani and Armstrong [Kentiger] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks -- sorry if that came across as tactless and/or ill-timed. Still a bit jetlagged and scratchy I guess -- didn't mean to couch the comments in that tone.

You very astutely say that the essence here is really that he lost "the battle with his own self respect". Well put. If that happens, no third party adulation (and even that was withdrawn from him) can compensate or fill that void...
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Re: Ventoux, Pantani and Armstrong [alpedhuez] [ In reply to ]
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Pantani's demolition derby driving incident still leaves me amazed. He was neither arrested nor drug tested in the aftermath (2 of the cars were hit in the police station parking lot too), what does it say about the general quality of Italian driving?
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Re: Ventoux, Pantani and Armstrong [mises] [ In reply to ]
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Italian driving? Ever been to Montreal or Toronto during rush hour? Oi! Better still..when we get the first snow of the year...that's scary
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