Dan

I think the tech is great, price point not so much.

Ray wrote a bit about it here

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/...dbits-velosense.html

Not sure how much is too much, but $1,000 seems a bit outrageous to me. I would gladly rent one from a local shop - maybe that’s the model if the hardware is too expensive to get unit price down. Treat a rental it like tunnel time or an investment in a bike fit - a once a year or two expense.

That said, man I would love to see the effect of real time position, bike fit and equipment changes. Maybe it’s the smartest $1,000 you can spend. Maybe it’s not.

Happy to try it and be wrong at $300 - 400ish, but at a $1,000 I would choke a little.

i've invited the velosense guys to chime in, which perhaps they'll do tomorrow (it's past their bed times!). me (and i'm happy to have them call me an ignorant slut), i would doubt this ever sees the retail market under its current ownership/manufacturing paradigm. rather i think it'll either be a straight purchase of the tech, a licensing of the tech, or something like 4iiii and specialized.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Right!

That’s why I throw out the rental market concept. Easy way to prove people demand the tech - which we do.

Way easier than industrial engineering (which they could probably do) and establishing the distribution model and integration with the various head units.

I hope they comment on ST and get this thing to market.

I think it looks great and something that initially I thought I could see myself using. BUT....

I think I would do one surge of testing with it to sort out position and gear and then I would be pretty much be done with it for a couple of years until it's time to choose a new helmet or whatever.

2 hours at A2 is about $1000. I get get all that testing done in an environment that I gotta think is a lot more accurate. So add travel and one night at a hotel and I think you are competing against a cost to test at A2 of about $1500-$1800. That's not very favorable for VeloSense. Over a few years and rounds of equipment upgrades maybe the VeloSense gets the nod...

Which gets me to the question - how do they measure (and prove to us) their accuracy? Have they done tests that they have shared?

The above does not consider the ability to see what your yaw angle distributions look like in different conditions, which is useful. But that's not going to vary a bunch from person to person. A few people post some data and you can pretty much use theirs.

I could be wrong in this analysis. Maybe I would try it and get totally addicted to it. I'm not sure.

I could see coaches buying this and using it with their athletes to help them fine tune. A lot more value there, but a tiny market.

I would tell them that if they believe in this - and they clearly do because as long as that thing is real and not vaporware, they have put some significant resources into it - they should get it out on the market before they try to sell it to Garmin or whoever. Prove there is demand and prove that people are willing to pay the price they require to make it attractive.

If they sell it now, the market uncertainty will drive their price way way down. Will they sell 200 of these a year or 5,000? Who knows. Garmin will offer them a price assuming 200 if they don't prove it first.

---

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

I'm mostly gratified my name is in a list with all those other people for whatever reason.

But I am all over it. I've got like $5K set aside to buy 3-4 different ones and try them all out, and the Velosense is certainly competing for that starting rotation. This one isn't due out until summer 2019, think, though. Which it seems like these devices have been perpetually due out "next summer" for about the past 3 years, so it must be really hard to make them consumer friendly.

Not me. I'm constantly tinkering. Are those new NoPinz overshoes helping, this new helmet, this new hand position, etc.



More accurate unless you believe the great Hambini, in which case you're optimizing for nice clean wind tunnel air instead of real world air.[/quote] Which gets me to the question - how do they measure (and prove to us) their accuracy? .[/quote]


I don't know, but if their demo-grade wind tunnel at Interbike is any guide, they're not at all new to putting their device in a wind tunnel and setting known angles/speeds and measuring the output.

We've all learned to wait until the unit is delivered before getting excited!
The bike brand guys already have Aerolab which is on a totally different price level to Aerosense.

Aeropod apparently starting shipping this week, which should lead to more discussion of this sort of thing - more enthusiasts able to try out the tech.

So if you are testing something new like a helmet or shoes or whatever, how do you know the difference you are seeing is not dominated by minor positional changes from the last time you tested? In a tunnel there are ways to control it somewhat, but if you go a week or a month between tests, how do you know?

---

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Well I don't know. My current methodology is based of RChung-style testing on a velodrome. I'll do it about monthly. I'll go out and do a bunch of laps, change something, bunch more laps. Then go back to the original setup as a sanity check, bunch more laps. Maybe a few rounds of that. If there was some combo that had a strong signal for being faster, that's the new baseline.

Then say, two months later, I'll start with that baseline as the starting point. Of course, you're right. I don't measure my body position to make sure I'm in that exact same position. Or maybe when I was doing maintenance I changed my bar position by 2mm. I don't know. It's not wind-tunnel grade.

So I guess the answer is there are ways to approach aero testing: 1) super precise measurement controlling everything possible, get a small of amount of high-quality data 2) decent measurement, shit-ton of data

It's like a classical FTP test vs. WKO mFTP. You can go through the FTP process every time you test, make sure the temperature is the same, calibrate all the instrumentation, do the same warmup, etc. Or you can just go collect a shit-ton of training data and estimate it and get pretty darn close.

With the new devices, I think it might be more like a gradient descent, to borrow engineering terminology. Am I more aero than last week? Last month? There's no need to rapidly converge. Maybe this week I'll experiment with overlapped hands. Maybe next week I'll borrow my buddy's Aerohead. How does my gravel bike compare to my road bike?

I don't think it's a replacement for wind tunnel testing. Or Jim @ ERO-type-expertise. But when you go arrive at the tunnel, for that final optimization, you can bring a lot to the table.

First I've heard or seen of it yet.

The sensor configuration is intriguing...I'd LOVE to understand more about how that functions. Getting the angles is key to the accuracy of these devices IMHO.

Here's the main takeaway I have from all of these new sensors coming out (which I've shared before)...what's going to "make or break" these devices is going to be the usability aspects. Making it easy to use and analyze is EVERYTHING. If it takes a long, drawn-out process to calibrate and to crunch the numbers, it makes the usage much less desirable.

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

$1000

In a sport that is dying because the mainstream/younger generation views it as a bunch of rich old white dudes...

Let's see. You can do this Spartan race for 100 bucks and a pair of running shoes or you can try a tri, but you HAVE to have a...

10000 dollar bike
500 dollar skin suit
300 dollar helmet
3000 dollar wheels
1000 dollar powermeter
1000 dollar smart trainer
300 dollar bike shoes
Running shoes =
300 dollar wetsuit
Slowtwitch membership (free!!!)
150 dollar entry for a sprint or 900 for an IM
And now, a 1000 thingy that tells you if all the above stuff saves you 15 watts

ETA: I do like the use, but don't see it as feasable for the masses. I could see a lot of shops buying one of these to use with fitting, etc

The Aeropod is going to be $500 from a company that has essentially been doing something similar for years. Not sure what makes this one twice as good.

---

--Chris

i usually pay my entry fees and i pay for most of my equipment. none of my stuff costs anything close to what you quote.

all my metrics say that triathlon is up in 2018, after 5 down years. and, i reported contemporaneously that we were down when we were down, before anyone else reported it. so, when i report that it's up, it's up.

you guys who are just... so... assburned about the cost of stuff! you need to figure out what it is that's really bugging you! because, i'm very happy cycling in $150 shoes, and my road shoes are something like 7yr old and falling apart. there's a thread for you! we all know which one it is!

as to THIS product, i think it's interesting tech. i'm not going to buy one. but it's interesting tech. maybe if it comes out for $375 i might buy one. that doesn't make me hate it! chill, bro!

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Why wouldn’t you ride with one helmet

Stop and then test with the other helmet?

How long since you raced at a college triathlon?

Hundreds of college age kids racing

Well, this is the exact reason Garmin purchased Alphamantis.

My belief is none of these devices is yet ready for prime time, and it's going to take a few years of shake out before we're seeing consistently accurate data. We haven't yet answered the simple question of where we need to mount them!

Then, of course, you have this new kid on the block who says we're seeing more yaw than we believe, which is the opposite of what 4 or 5 other companies who've been collecting this type of data for a few years have found. Hmmm. I don't know who's right and who isn't, but I always question the outlier. Maybe they've found something no one else has, but it will take some convincing if everyone else's data is different.

Other than that, I can't wait to have a working, consistent, aero stick. I'll have a size run of bikes with Alpha One aero bars waiting to dial in positions, helmets, clothing, etc. Somebody get me one!

---

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

this is a product that, as far as i know, hasn't come out yet. personally i doubt it will, under this company. at interbike they didn't even really suggest to me that it would be for sale. i think they'll look for a manufacturing partner.

now, as to the twice as good or half as good, my interest is in whether the tech is accurate, and if others are inaccurate. when i saw the output from this device, what caught my eye was the greater yaw amplitudes, and i wonder whether we're getting good data out of other similar devices (including what has been used by FLO, mavic, swiss side, etc.) as anemometers or pitot-tube devices to generate the yaws we purportedly see.

maybe i'm missing something critical here, but i don't care what it costs any more than i care what a wind tunnel session costs. i care what information it yields.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

two things. first, i *think* that is what this device is showing. i'd like others determine this. second, this is also what hambini said. let's see what these guys have to say once they chime in.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Can you say, "stagnation"?

http://www.hupi.org/HPeJ/0008/0008.htm

The number of companies in this segment with near-identical names can be a wee bit confusing.

The AeroPod is actually one of the two products closest to shipping, other being the Notio Konect from Notio (Argon 18 sub). Notio started a soft launch this past summer and has real units with real consumers/buyers. The AeroPod launched for sale this past spring, and was set to start shipping by the end of summer. They said over the weekend they'll start shipping out this weekend (myself/Robert/Tom played with both units in a tunnel a couple weeks ago).

Everyone else is in some state of 'soonish'. Velosense with the furthest out dates at this point by any player I'm aware of, and with the remainder of companies mostly evenly spaced between later this year and next spring.

Ultimately, as Jim noted though - I think we'll see some turbulence with respect to accuracy of units over the near term. However, as Tom noted what's clearly becoming the most important factor is actually just usability of the device and the data. That's based on me having touched in some way or another almost every device to date (production/proposed/mythical). Most of these companies are underestimating how the usability factor will actually be the most important piece behind relative accuracy* on how they're judged.

*I say relative accuracy, because I don't think we're at the point yet of having absolute CdA accuracy...but maybe I'll be proven wrong.

---

-
My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com

Dan.. look into tris in San Diego:

You must be getting a discount.

MB tri yesterday was 130 or 140...

Pretty much all sprints around here are 100+.. for a sprint. Typically 130...

I may do the bakersfield tri next weekend: screaming deal at $90 for the sprint. (In a pretty place to boot), but I have only done 2 races this year because as a single homeowner, I've literally been prices out of conpetition.

It sucks, and yes, I'm a little bitter. It's frustrating. But it actually does hit home at my original point: the sport is dying in the US due to overriding. It's fine if you can buy speed, but the average American isn't there


Care to provide me a list if all these cheap triathlons? If be all over it!

He'll, give me a list of FIVE true in socal that cost less than 100 bucks and I will race every one.This

you must've seen these guys at eurobike? i saw them at interbike. sounds like you saw what i saw. i saw a graph that showed yaws, degrees of yaw across time and pretty wild swings, and i mean a swing back and forth every second or two, as if just the action of steering the bike created changes in yaw. they disputed that this was the cause (and there is pretty compelling math that they're right, because it's very easy to demonstrate the exact degrees your front wheel turns to the left and right during steering. however, it isn't how much the wheel turns relative to the frame; but to the ground (to the line you're holding).

my interest in this is not so much just drag, but steering torque and handling. if the yaw really does sway that widely, that quickly, that calls into question (to me) the validity of wind tunnel testing, at least as relates to any conclusions drawn regarding steering torque, change in torque, stall. maybe i'm just a conspiracy theorist but i found this interesting so close on the heels of the thread on hambini and his view of this.

i have no interest in this as a consumer device. i know that's how people see it. i'm primarily interested in how this informs our knowledge in front wheel aerodynamics and handling.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

See my post above about ease of use. My experience with products from "the company that has essentially been doing something similar for years" is that the use of them tends to be a bit..."fiddly"...

---

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Yes, that is what my interests do focus, too .. improving knowledge about sensing and understanding helps to adjust just in time .. to find a good rhythm is what it is called .. for the air moving by this is very time (and perception) critical, because it's hard for cognition to trigger reactions adopting to the possible turbulence of changes .. what I like is the simplified display of changes on the device to find a tendency that can be managed with some amount of memory and recorded success ..

edit: while all the blood seems to be in the legs ..

---

*
___/\___/\___/\___ the s u r f b o a r d of the K u r p f a l z is the r o a d b i k e .. oSo >>