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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not concerned with you saying Zipps advertising budget is a small fraction of the cost of making their wheels and its silly to use that as a basis for a buying decision. It when you you give that opinion creedance by trying to estimate other companies costs and business practices that you start to look silly.

Styrrell


I don't think it's silly at all, since a ton of people have suggested that you're paying more for Zipp than HED because of "advertising". I think it's worth pointing out that HED sponsors more pro tour teams than Zipp, and most likely their construction costs are lower. That's my take on it at least.

As far as the actual performance of the wheels (directed to no one in particular), I will say that there's more to life than aero. I've used almost all of the wheels mentioned pretty extensively. I ended up ditching the Stinger 6 because of fitment issues and the Stinger 9 because of handling issues (and I'm pretty much a ninja when it comes to handling deep wheels. High speed descents in a pack w/an S9=no fun). The braking of both wheels in the rain was also a deal breaker, and the Zipps excel in this area. If the new Stinger 9 is as wide as the S6 (which it seems to be), there are definitely going to be fitment issues with it. The S6 even rubs some FORKS, forget about brakes.

Lastly, while I was giving Jordan a hard time earlier, the fact is he was right on the facts, and has been more factually correct on the details of Hed's own wheels. There have definitely been 2 versions of the S9 out there, and Hed's representative has yet to even clarify that. I think some folks need to read the discussion a little more carefully before casting stones.
Last edited by: roady: Jul 31, 10 9:50
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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The length of time that the cost of the machines are amortized from an accounting perspective are predetermined based on GAAP (accounting) and IRS (tax) rules, the two of which are likely different. They may in fact use what they consider to be the useful life in analyzing the cost structure of their products used to determine price. It is highly likely that the real life of the machines (at least for their intended application) is less than accounting and tax rules. When a machine (or any company asset) is taken out of service permanently you must take a charge for the remaining asset value, a hit to your earnings (but also a tax deduction). All of which occurs sometime after you paid for or borrowed to pay for the equipment.

One of the points mentioned earlier that costs of using someone else's (Taiwanese) machine would be the same. That is if they are not also producing products for other companies on the same machines which is often the case (at least in bike frame manufacturing, so I would assume wheels too), unless they are contractually obligated to not produce same or similar products. The contractual obligation also does not necessarily keep them from doing that. Although as capitalism becomes more and more prevasive in China/Taiwan more and more of those companies are conducting business in an honest fashion since they too develop IP they would like to protect.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [SwBkRn44] [ In reply to ]
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You guys should do some serious research on that statement. I think you would be suprised on the differences and costs between bigger businesses and smaller ones.

Just because a company is bigger doesn't mean everything costs less.

jaretj
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [jaretj] [ In reply to ]
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Just because a company is bigger doesn't mean everything costs less.

I understand that. But the inverse as claimed by VinceatHED isn't true either, that just because a company is smaller its products are cheaper.



Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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While I agree with your premise of your posts, you can pretty easily see that a zipp rim is harder to build (and thus likely a lot more expensive to make, with lower yields) than a "traditional" carbon rim from overseas by looking at their respective cross-sections. That, and using US labor, developing all those nasty bits for manufacturing, Zipps trend to try a lot of different products, etc. all increase costs. I'm not saying they're justified. I'm not saying Zipp is using a wise business model (are they making money applying their composites knowledge to the local racecar industry?). I'm not even saying that the entire difference in cost between hed and zipp is in the overall cost of designing and building the wheel. I'm just saying it's not hard to find out why a zipp wheel costs more.

And I ride Hed wheels, so I'd like to think I don't suffer from some amount of fanboyism. I balk at Zipp's prices. Then again, I balk at Hed's prices too, but I got mine used for a steal.

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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Ok share one thing, seeing as its not likely to be very proprietary. How long does Zipp take to amortize the cost of the disk molding machine versus the actual life of the machine until its out of use, inculuding maintenance on said machine?

I'm not concerned with you saying Zipps advertising budget is a small fraction of the cost of making their wheels and its silly to use that as a basis for a buying decision. It when you you give that opinion creedance by trying to estimate other companies costs and business practices that you start to look silly.

Styrrell

It would depend on the machine. The machines that mold the super9 and 900 tubular disc do not have to bladder mold the outer "bulge" like the machines that do the 900 clincher and sub9 do, and therefore have a lower cost. Though I'm guessing you are asking for a "for instance," and I will find out if that's something I can share. So it may have to wait until Monday to actually get permission. But I will let you know if I can or if I cannot - and why I cannot if that's the case.

I agree with your assessment that trying to estimate another companies budget as a whole is a silly exercise. But keep in mind that there was a massive thread on this very forum about doing a "mass wheel buy" from Taiwan. So it's not that hard for me to say, "if Zipp wanted to have the 808 tubular made in China, this is what it would cost." I would say it was likely bad wording on my part. Rather, I should have simply said, Zipp could make more money per wheel and sell their wheels for a lot less if they elected to have their hoops made in China. That would have been simpler and more straightforward.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [electusunus] [ In reply to ]
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The german mags are a joke, the Tri one was renounced for all the mistakes in their "testing" protocols. Tours magically has Continentals (big advertiser) as the faster tires, contrary all all the legit independent testing.

Now, I may have been a bit hasty on the 1080 vs Stinger 90 from call, as I don't have the test results article I was recalling. But that said, with warranty covered tires on the front wheels and through a wide range of wind angles rides will see in a 40k TT, I believe the 1080 being deeper, with a fast shape will be faster. However, if Vince wants to send me a Stinger 90 front I have some 40K TT's coming up and I can do some informal testing. . .
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Hello Rappstar and All,

What optimum tire size does Zipp recommend for the new carbon rim 404 clincher for a front wheel for IM triathlon?

I weigh 155 lbs. I am thinking the new Bonty 22mm R4 Aero would be OK, but there must be an optimum size for best aero/Crr qualities. (Aero qualities to be titrated or iterated against best Crr for best overall performance)

http://bontrager.com/model/09124

I see on the website that recommended tire size range is 20-34mm and not to exceed 125 psi.

http://www.zipp.com/.../404-carbon-clincher

I expect that rules out the 19mm Bonty.

Also is there any problem using velo plugs vs. rim tape with that wheel?

What size are the spoke holes?

http://veloplug.com/

Cheers,

Neal

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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Hello Rappstar and All,

What optimum tire size does Zipp recommend for the new carbon rim 404 clincher for a front wheel for IM triathlon?

I weigh 155 lbs. I am thinking the new Bonty 22mm R4 Aero would be OK, but there must be an optimum size for best aero/Crr qualities. (Aero qualities to be titrated or iterated against best Crr for best overall performance)

http://bontrager.com/model/09124

I see on the website that recommended tire size range is 20-34mm and not to exceed 125 psi.

http://www.zipp.com/.../404-carbon-clincher

I expect that rules out the 19mm Bonty.

Also is there any problem using velo plugs vs. rim tape with that wheel?

What size are the spoke holes?

http://veloplug.com/

Cheers,

Neal

21 is going to be fastest - or likely even a 20 - but the penalty for going to a 23 vs 21 may be minimal - depending on your definition of minimal. I prefer to run 23s for most races because of an increased air volume (even accounting for recommended differences in tire pressure). But 21 - or even 20 - is going to be fastest. If you want some good data on balancing aero/Crr I'd encourage you to buy Kraig Willett's paper testing exactly that. The problem with running 19s is that you are really prone to pinch flats and the potential for rim damage is much higher. But really, there isn't really an optimum "size" for balancing best Crr/aero, because you could have a narrow tire with a REALLY crappy Crr. Or a wider tire with an extraordinarily low Crr. And it's also speed dependent if you want to balance drag (which is cubic) and crr (which is linear). So that's not really a question with one single answer. I guess the simple - though not really helpful - answer is that "it depends on the tire."

There are no problems with Veloplugs that I know of. But again, that's maybe not the most common question, so I will double check for you.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [SwBkRn44] [ In reply to ]
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Actually it can be true...Seriously

Don't take my word for it, talk to a sucessful small businessman, they will tell you.

jaretj
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Hello Rappstar and All,

Quick reply.

Good advice on Kraig's paper - I have most information on what he has tested and he ran my SD Low Speed wind tunnel tests.

http://biketechreview.com/...l-testing?format=pdf

I guess I was looking for outlier information since the rim shape is different than in the past - thought maybe there was some odd dis continous or unexpected portion of the tire/rim drag curve that might make it optimum for a very particular tire size. If not then conventional wisdom should work for tire selection. If the aero differences are small for 20mm to 23mm then that is the range I will look at and go with best Crr considering reasonable durability.

I like the thought that I can run a slightly fatter tire (better Crr usually) with the new rim and still have good aero performance.

Cheers,

Neal

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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Since this thread has turned into a ZIPP vs HED debate in a lot of ways, I am going to go ahead and state up front that I am a sales rep for Zipp, just so it is clear.

To answer your question neal, The fastest tire I have seen in test results was the 21mm Tangente on the 404CC. I would guess that the Bonty tire you mentioned would be a good fit, but as always with that tire, how it integrates with the rim is critical. I haven't seen one mounted on that rim yet. Keep in mind that the rims are designed with the Tangente in mind, and it is a really nice tire. I personally recommend the 23mm Tangente, I just think it rides better. But the narrower tire does test faster. I don't think you would want to use the 19mm Bonty.

I am not a huge fan of Veloplugs, but I don't see why you couldn't use them, but again, I have not seen them used with that rim yet. I think when you see the new rim strip that ships with those wheels, you may decided you want to use it. They are really nice. I do not have the spoke hole size here, and my wheels are currently at a dealer on a test ride, so I can't measure them.

As far as tire pressure, that is pretty much personal preference within the limits of the rim. I would guess that around 110 would be a good pressure for you in dry conditions on a fairly smooth course, maybe a little lower. Drop 5psi or so for rough course or rain. Again, just my personal recommendation. I think tire pressure depends more on the tire than the rim (again within the limits of the rim).

Personally, I have really enjoyed sitting on the sidelines of this debate. I think Josh, Rappstar and Vince have all provided some good info. I personally didn't see any mud slinging on either side, both sides really stuck to why they felt their product was superior, neither really talked about why they thought the other brand was junk, and as someone who has worked in this industry for a long time, I think both companies have a lot of respect for each other.

The only thing I am really curious about is the apparent difference in measurement of the 2 versions of the Stinger. I would like to know if Vince saw the wheel tested, or he is just repeating what he was told, that it is the same as what he is currently selling. We sales guys are basically parrots in a lot of cases, we just repeat what we are told.

I am excited to see what awaits at interbike, I have a feeling that the end users are going to be the big winners here, it looks like both companies are going to have some cool new stuff, and even though I am a bit biased thanks to my employment, I am still a bike geek, and I like seeing cool stuff, no matter who makes it.


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Disclaimer: This poster is a sales rep in the bicycle industry
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [bikescott] [ In reply to ]
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There's a pic of the new Bonty tire mounted up by Tom A. on a pair of 404 CC prototypes that I loaned him; just do a quick search. It mounts up very nicely. Of course, I have a personal bias towards the tangentes, but the R4 looks like a great match.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Zipp Speed Weaponry’s story might be summed up in a tale about a drill bit. During a tour of the facility, engineer Josh Poertner stopped at the spoke-hole drilling station. Holding up a bit, about 3 inches long and maybe a quarter-inch in diameter, he said, “It took us almost four years to design this.”

And I suppose all of their amps go to 11...



Drinking beer since 1969
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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For example, as I stated in my first post - the wheel was tested with a tire that would void the warranty. The reason for voiding the warranty is never really covered by HED, who simply says that a wider tire is recommended for optimal performance. But if you read the Velonews article, you'll see that the wheel they tested - mounted with a 21mm tire - already showed signs of impact damage to the rim. That's not "mud slinging," that's fact. The reason for that is the excessively deep tire bed on that rim, which is also a major part of why it's fast.

You know...I was thinking about this a bit (dangerous, I know) but if just running a slightly smaller tire makes this rim more likely to suffer rim damage (and voids the warranty!), what happens when you run the recommended size tire but suffer a flat?

Youch...I guess that's going to be one tubular setup nobody's going to keep riding on when they flat, huh? Well...at least the folks who care about whether or not the rim is damaged, that is...



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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You know...I was thinking about this a bit (dangerous, I know) but if just running a slightly smaller tire makes this rim more likely to suffer rim damage (and voids the warranty!), what happens when you run the recommended size tire but suffer a flat?

Youch...I guess that's going to be one tubular setup nobody's going to keep riding on when they flat, huh? Well...at least the folks who care about whether or not the rim is damaged, that is...

If you care about rim damage, you don't keep riding a flat, regardless of the manufacturer.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [NateC] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
You know...I was thinking about this a bit (dangerous, I know) but if just running a slightly smaller tire makes this rim more likely to suffer rim damage (and voids the warranty!), what happens when you run the recommended size tire but suffer a flat?

Youch...I guess that's going to be one tubular setup nobody's going to keep riding on when they flat, huh? Well...at least the folks who care about whether or not the rim is damaged, that is...


If you care about rim damage, you don't keep riding a flat, regardless of the manufacturer.

Yeah...but if just running too small of a tire can likely cause rim damage (as the VN folks find out), will you be able to avoid it just rolling to a stop after flatting?



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
You know...I was thinking about this a bit (dangerous, I know) but if just running a slightly smaller tire makes this rim more likely to suffer rim damage (and voids the warranty!), what happens when you run the recommended size tire but suffer a flat?

Youch...I guess that's going to be one tubular setup nobody's going to keep riding on when they flat, huh? Well...at least the folks who care about whether or not the rim is damaged, that is...


If you care about rim damage, you don't keep riding a flat, regardless of the manufacturer.


Yeah...but if just running too small of a tire can likely cause rim damage (as the VN folks find out), will you be able to avoid it just rolling to a stop after flatting?

Valid question. My experience is that you would avoid damage if you were running the proper tire and stop as quickly as feasible.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [NateC] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
You know...I was thinking about this a bit (dangerous, I know) but if just running a slightly smaller tire makes this rim more likely to suffer rim damage (and voids the warranty!), what happens when you run the recommended size tire but suffer a flat?

Youch...I guess that's going to be one tubular setup nobody's going to keep riding on when they flat, huh? Well...at least the folks who care about whether or not the rim is damaged, that is...


If you care about rim damage, you don't keep riding a flat, regardless of the manufacturer.


It depends on the importance of the race you are doing. My son stopped immediately after loosing all the air last Sunday on a road race, while climbing after flatting a HED rear tubular wheel. The $200 he won in that race arriving in third place was not worth ruining the wheel (even if it costs $200 to replace the wheel if crashed). On some other more important races he has kept going until the support car shows up (and surprisingly has not managed to ruin the tubular wheel). Hitting a ditch at high speed is another story.

Crash replacement policies are important if you road race more than 50 times per year. I have not put Zipp to the test on this one, but HED wheels come with a lifetime crash replacement policy enabling the original owner of a crash to replace the damaged wheel at a substantial savings. From my experience, HED gets a star on the forehead on this one... and on several other times I have asked for technical support.

Sergio

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: English is not my first language. Please read this translated post considering that.


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Sergio Escutia] [ In reply to ]
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Zipp has the same basic program. I believe the stated limit is 5 years, but that is in place simply because often there are so many changes in 5 years that parts are often not available to fix as a crash replacement. I have never seen Zipp refuse to fix a wheel that parts were available for, regardless of the age.

The cost is usually in the $400-500 range, depending on which rim, and if the hub needs service/parts as well.


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Disclaimer: This poster is a sales rep in the bicycle industry
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [bikescott] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Zipp has the same basic program. I believe the stated limit is 5 years, but that is in place simply because often there are so many changes in 5 years that parts are often not available to fix as a crash replacement. I have never seen Zipp refuse to fix a wheel that parts were available for, regardless of the age.

The cost is usually in the $400-500 range, depending on which rim, and if the hub needs service/parts as well.

The costs for the Zipp No Fault/Crash Replacement program depends on where you live. Here in the Netherlands it's different than in the US. Here you can get a 15% reduction in price of the rim when you crack your rim. My 404 clincher rim cracked at a spoke hole and I got lucky that they would replace it although I cracked my rim after the two year warranty period.

Another important point of a crash replacement/no fault replacement would be how fast Zipp/Hed can replace the damaged wheel. I did sent my Zipp 404 powertap wheel to the local distributor in May but I still don't have my training and race wheel equipped with a powertap, so I have to borrow a powertap wheel to train with power.

___________________________________
Paul | Medisch Info | Medisch Zoeken
Last edited by: p.VDB: Jul 31, 10 13:05
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [bartturner] [ In reply to ]
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The 2009 model is done with a 3K carbon weave. The 2010 model is panelled with a 1K carbon weave around the brake track. The difference in appearance is that the 3k has a wider thread and the 1k is a smaller, tighter thread.

Ian Stanford
Ally's Bar. AStacher LLC
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not really interested in the actual number, just pointing out that determining "actual cost of making a wheel" is very difficult to determine, even for the company making it, let alone an outside observer. My guess is that a similar Zipp wheel costs more to make than a HED, but I wouldn't be positive.

Zipp has more $$ in machines and such as you pointed out, but HED has more $$ in shipping and outside contrctors. They also have to go to the foreign factories to make sure things are done correctly. Look at it this way, if you were starting a wheel company you would likely start by going to foreign makers, even if you had your own design. Each wheel would cost more, but the start up cost is much less.

Ican't see what a generic wheel buy has to do with HEDs wheels, they may have them manufactured in a foreign factory, but they aren't relabeling a generic design.

Of course I'm also enjoying the fact that you are a big fan of ZIPP wheels (as am I), but you keep bumping a HED is fastest thread. ;-)

Styrrell

Styrrell
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Sergio Escutia] [ In reply to ]
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So you basically agree with me. If you care more about the rim damage than you do the race, you will stop immediately.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [p.VDB] [ In reply to ]
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You are correct, I was referring to crash replacement in the US.
Never even thought about it being different overseas.


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Disclaimer: This poster is a sales rep in the bicycle industry
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