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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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So Vince you guys gonna make a carbon clincher jet so we get some competition in that space?

Should my Jet90 ever die on me might have to go zipp at the moment =)



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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I've been rocking Stinger 60/90 combo with 23mm Conti's for a year now and they are solid and fast. On my tri team it's a pretty even split between Zipp and Hed for rim choice and it really comes down to personal preference and $$. Having said that, I don't feel the need to look elsewhere for any additional gains I may or may not get from a different set of wheels, the Hed's are doing a far better job than I am at staying aero. And you want to talk about smooth hubs!?!? Occasionally I spin the front tire and sit there for an eternity until it begins to slow down, spun them the other day and went to grab a 6 pack down the road, came back and my dog was just starring at the damn thing still spinning 12mph on the speedo, had to pull the brake to stop it. Hed is quality, everyone knows it. Just my $0.02...

oh - plus they look pimp on my bike, what more is there really?

_________________________
I got nothing.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Like I said, Interbike will be fun this year :)


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Need4Speed305] [ In reply to ]
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x2 on the hubs. The new Flamme Rouge hubs are buttery smooth. I used Hed Ardennes as my crit wheels this year, and loved 'em. Perfect crit wheel - I wouldn't use a carbon clincher given the NASCAR-style pileups that happen in crits, but the scandium/titanium HEDs are bombproof, stiff, and corner well with the wider profile.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Man ..... that last post Rapp was a STRETCH!

The cost of Zipps are so high not because of manufacturing, because we have the same machines. If we dont then we have to pay the companies that have the machines and I can guarantee that isnt cheap!

Zipp is a huge company compared to HED. I would probably say 3x as big. We focus on wheels and bars, thats it. Zipp/SRAM has wheels, bars, more wheels, components etc... all of that costs money.

You say it the process to make the stuff, its to pay the 12 engineers and that is just for the wheels, builders, sales reps, lord knows who else. You cant tell me that cost of business isnt reflected into the cost of the wheels?

How many guys did Zipp sent to the tour? We sent 2. The expense of sending the 2 for a month was a stretch for the company. Im sure Zipp sent more than 2 people. Yes Zipp paid for them, but those costs are all absorbed into the wheels, eventually. Its business!

We have 3 sales guys, who also are the marketing guys and occasional wheel builders. The fact is, the smaller the operation the more the consumer saves. It isnt the process to build the wheels.

If that was the case the Bontrager wheels would be the most expensive wheels out there. The fact they are still lower than Zipps just indicates the cost is in the company expenses. Bontrager/Trek is a bigger company than Zipp and have a lot more "things" they are working on. They are still cheaper. They have more machines that do lord knows what. Im sure they have more expenses than Zipp and HED put together times 2.

And also, we sponsor 3 ProTour teams

The only thing that is a stretch is your obtuseness. Really, you are going to tell me that paying a company that has the molding machines is the same as actually buying them yourself? Seriously?

And, even with the machines you do own, you do not have the same machines as Zipp. The machines that makes the sub9 have fuzzy logic control to center the hub in the molded wheel as it cures. They can also simultaneously bladder mold the exterior hoop and mold the nomex core center section simultaneously. I must have missed where you have a wheel that was structurally equivalent. Furthermore, with the Stingers, you don't actually own the machines, your mfr in Taiwan does. That's a huge cost. And the machines used to bond a fairing onto a rim are different than what Zipp requires to co-mold their wheels. You make your wheels differently than they do. So, no, you do not have the same machine. And paying the company that has the machines for those wheels that are made the same is VERY different than actually paying to own the machines yourself.

My point was primarily that Zipp's advertising budget is not substantially different than yours. It's NOT marketing that adds to the cost of the wheel.

Furthermore, Zipp's costs have not changed appreciably since SRAM took over. In case you forgot, they made many of these wheels long before SRAM ever bought them. Zipp and Zipp/SRAM are in many ways now the same company, but Zipp still largely operates as an independent entity.

"The fact is, the smaller the operation the more the consumer saves." If ever there was a stretch statement, TAHT was it. That simply belies a total lack of understanding of basic economics.

Yes, the cost of doing business adds to the cost of the wheels. But Zipp also sells more wheels than HED. The basic production costs of Zipps wheels is definitively and substantially higher than HEDs. If you want to really want to debate that, I'm ready and willing.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Is there an "IGNORE" option for individuals on the forums? I love the technical discussion and debate but the propaganda and arguing over who has a bigger dick doesn't really interest me.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [TH3_FRB] [ In reply to ]
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It's all good, it's a company man getting answers from the company. The fact is bigger companies have more expenses that eventually the customer is payinG for. Fancy Machine or no machine. The customer is paying.

You can spin it all you want but in the end our wheels are faster and more importantly to the consumer, less expensive.


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
Last edited by: Vince@HED: Jul 30, 10 20:50
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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To the gentlemen from Zipp and Hed, your professionalism is appreciated. Very classy. Thanks.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rapp, why should a customer pay 30% more for Zipp wheels?

The aero performance is the same (virtually, or less, virtually) than HED. There's nothing to prove that in the real world, Zipp wheels are stronger because of their construction (everyone knows someone who's broken a Zipp rim, and I'm sure there's plenty of HED stories if you ask around enough). So why should the consumer pay more?

You state the HED makes more profit on their wheels than Zipp. Maybe I misread your tone, but it seemed like you expected the reader to have a bad taste in their mouth after finding that out. In actuality, congrats to HED for making that extra profit and still keeping costs down to the customer and providing solid products to the consumer.

Perhaps, I lack a basic understanding of economics as well (though my collegiate Econ professors would strongly disagree), but the operational differences that you describe between the two companies would point towards HED having the better business model in the long term.

I'm asking you, respectfully, to entertain my questions because I do ask with an open mind. FWIW though, your statement about Vince's obtuseness was a bit of the pot calling the kettle black.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
The only thing that is a stretch is your obtuseness.

Ouch! That hardly seems necessary.

Zipps are priced more than comparable HED's. However, the consuming public will never know what percentage of that difference is attributable to COGS (as opposed to marketing or licensing or R&D or G&A or just plain profit) unless the companies open up their books - which they have no obligation to do for us. It would be interesting to know.

It may very well be that Zipps cost more than HEDs (or other wheels) to manufacture. In fact, if the bulk of the labor used to manufacture Zipps is performed in the US as opposed to Taiwan, then I think we can be pretty certain Zipps do cost more to make. It may also be that the materials used are more expensive. I actually doubt that ownership of the "machines" has much to do with the cost however. The machines are expensive but the owner gets to amortize that expense over time (and receive tax breaks due to the depreciation) and, in any event, whoever owns the "machines" used to make HEDs will incorporate the ownership costs in the price they charge HED.

Also I don't think we can ignore marketing (or at least branding) - not necessarily as a cost but as an explanation for pricing differences. I think it's fair to say that Zipp has positioned itself (very successfully) in the market as the "premium brand". It seems that HED positions itself as the technologically advanced "value brand". There's nothing wrong with either approach. In fact, one really couldn't exist effectively without the other.

What I'm trying to say is that Zipp and HED both seem to be well run businesses that make good products and, in fact, probably complement each other in the market even if they are competitors. So don't be hatin' on each other!
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Vince@HED] [ In reply to ]
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It's true that bigger companies have more expenses. That's why they are bigger, by definition (at least by stock market capitalization, earnings, all those fancy "business" terms.) It is downright dumb to say that being larger will necesarily raise costs for consumers. In fact, the opposite is generally true. There is a phrase for this - "economies of scale".

When have have large capital investments, such as machine tools or manufacturing plants, you have LOWER costs per unit as you produce more. This is BASIC economics. And yes, I do have a degree in that subject, among others.

There are many reasons why a particular wheel might be better than another. Being from a smaller (or larger) company is not one of them. Trying to claim that just ruins all any credibility you might have. If you bring some real data to the table I might listen, although if you engineering knowledge is as weak as your economics knowledge you won't get very far.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Steve B] [ In reply to ]
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Personally, I'm tired of this thread. We are just beating a dead horse here.

Some people like Ford some Chevy, people are republicans some are democrats some are HED some are ZIPP. Nobody is right, nobody is wrong. Each person has their own reason for liking what they like. Either its speed, cost, American, International who knows, honestly, who cares!

Both companies are trailblazers in the cycling world like I said on page ... who the hell knows ...... the competition is good for the end result, the customer.

We can go on forever comparing what the 2 companies do but what is that going to prove ...... nothing.

I say we end this because in 3 months when the new stuff comes out at Eurobike/Interbike this test is null and outdated because the new wheels are coming that will be faster then the ones tested. That is from both HED and Zipp, hell, Easton could have a wheel that nobody knows about that beats everybody.

That is what is exciting about competition. You never know what the next day will have in store for you.

With that being said, Jordan please continue your rehab and get back out there. We all miss you racing, you have always had my respect and all that you have been through lately you will always have my support.

As for me, please come say hi and introduce yourself at Interbike this year.

Vince


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HED. Cycling - Twitter @hedcycling - HED Wheel Selector iPhone App
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [NateC] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Rapp, why should a customer pay 30% more for Zipp wheels?

The aero performance is the same (virtually, or less, virtually) than HED. There's nothing to prove that in the real world, Zipp wheels are stronger because of their construction (everyone knows someone who's broken a Zipp rim, and I'm sure there's plenty of HED stories if you ask around enough). So why should the consumer pay more?

You state the HED makes more profit on their wheels than Zipp. Maybe I misread your tone, but it seemed like you expected the reader to have a bad taste in their mouth after finding that out. In actuality, congrats to HED for making that extra profit and still keeping costs down to the customer and providing solid products to the consumer.

Perhaps, I lack a basic understanding of economics as well (though my collegiate Econ professors would strongly disagree), but the operational differences that you describe between the two companies would point towards HED having the better business model in the long term.

I'm asking you, respectfully, to entertain my questions because I do ask with an open mind. FWIW though, your statement about Vince's obtuseness was a bit of the pot calling the kettle black.

I definitely do not expect that customers will have a bad taste about HED making a profit, nor do I wish them to have it. What bothers me is the bad taste that many customers seem to carry in their mouth regarding Zipp's "massive marketing budget." All I wish is to dispel that notion. Zipp's are more expensive than HED, that is true. Their marketing budget is has virtually nothing to do with that.

As far as whether or not Zipp or HED's business model makes more sense, you are most correct in that HED's seems to make more sense. That's why virtually every bike company in the world has outsourced the majority of their manufacturing to Asia. In many ways, Zipp exists as a sort of strange thought experiment. It may not make the most fundamental sense from an economic standpoint, but that's the choice they make. And they make it knowingly.

As to why I think that it's worth paying 30% more for Zipps, I'll give a story that I think sums of what you get when you pay for a Zipp wheel. The story was chronicled in Velonew's article on Zipp from a while back, so I'll just cut-n-paste it from there. I knew the story before the article, but the article does a great job of telling it. So I hope that you don't mind me "plagiarizing" it.

Zipp Speed Weaponry’s story might be summed up in a tale about a drill bit. During a tour of the facility, engineer Josh Poertner stopped at the spoke-hole drilling station. Holding up a bit, about 3 inches long and maybe a quarter-inch in diameter, he said, “It took us almost four years to design this.”

Poertner told of another tour he guided a few years ago, for SRAM upper management and investors prior to SRAM’s purchase of Zipp. “(SRAM) brought their head composite guy in from Hong Kong, and he didn’t say a word for the whole factory visit. We got to spoke-hole drilling, and he’s watching the drilling, and he pulled out his magnifying glass and looked at this bit, and says, ‘We should buy you for this drill bit.’”


The rest of that story is here: http://velonews.competitor.com/...eel-maker-zipp_92589

It's that sort of thing that is why Zipp chooses to business the way that they do. Does it add cost - substantial cost - the their wheels? Yes. Is that cost worth it? I guess it depends on what matters to you.

You are most welcome to your opinion that I'm the pot calling the kettle black. Perhaps we share a difference on opinion on what exactly obtuseness means in this particular regard. I don't wish to be that kettle calling the pot any more black than I may already have, so I'll just leave it at that.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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As an end user that isn't in America (so not patriotic need to buy US made) here's my take on a few thigns.

Zipp and HED are aerodynamically similar (i.e. performance basically equivalent) and it seems both companies are openly acknowledging that - the differences are splitting the split ends of hair.

Zipp are more expensive - there is no denying that. The reasons - open to debate, but I agree with Rappstar I don't recall there being a stack more Zipp advertisements then HED. Does the reason really matter - Zipp may have higher labor costs, they might give away more product, they might pay for more staff to attend the tour etc... Really, it's irrelevant as to why - the fact is the wheels cost more.

So performance the same, but expense different - all that is left is for people to start slinging mud to dirty the other's products because the two things that matter, performance and cost are open for all to see.

I find it laughable that anyone would think chinese carbon fibre is somehow a lower quality then American. Give it up anyone trying to claim that a wheel is better because it is made by an American Citizen as opposed to a citizen of an Asian country. That is pathetic.

Maybe Zipps research manufacturing costs are higher, if so, they need to somehow investigate this as their increased expenditure isn't producing faster wheels.

Oh, and joshatzipp claimed that Cav won't ride anything but zipp - and then we have pictures and statements that he actually rides HED's sometimes.

desperate claims and competitor bashing going on here and nobody is really looking any good out of it all. It's like two old ladies arguing at a country fair as to who has the best apple pie.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [The Real Animal] [ In reply to ]
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Agree with your thoughts, also as a 'non American' perspective...

We sat and talked with Terenzo recently about sponsorship opportunities in the US, he was giving my wife Sam some advice and thoughts. T talked about how his relationship started with Zipp, how he initially believed in their product so strongly he bought his wheels whilst being offered free deals elsewhere, and how it has grown over the years and both parties have benefited as a result. He couldn't of talked highly enough about the product and support.

Two weeks ago at Racine we realised upon arrival that we'd totally screwed up our choice of wheels for Sam, and the very next day a replacement wheel turned up courtesy of Vince at HED. This is not un common for HED either, their *pro customer support is second to non IMHO - Sam has dealt with other wheel companies and HED are head and shoulders above anything else we've seen.

I'm sure I'm setting myself up here for some smart arse to say..ahh that's where all the marketing budget is going...

But - I think we should all remember that without companies such as HED and Zipp, we'd all still be rattling around on our GP4's or MA40's. They're both great supporters of triathlon, whether at the pro end or age group.

I'm just coming to terms with Yaw and drag, and everything else that affects that bike split - I don't think I actually want the HED/Zipp debate to EVER finish, it's like training for a race - I'm learning far too much from the process!

Thanks guys.
r
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [ In reply to ]
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The HEDs are ~100g heavier than the Zipps.

The Flamme Rouge upgrade narrows that to a handful of grams, but also considerably narrows the price difference as well.

I will be visiting both at Interbike!

And, to Salmon Steve... I still race cross on a GP4, and if you want to hop in the way-back machine, I've got a GL330 rattling around somewhere. Is a Super Record 5spd derailleur worth anything?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [RebeccaCreekKid] [ In reply to ]
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I've still got some Dura Ace 6 speed stuff.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [RebeccaCreekKid] [ In reply to ]
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Since I sold my Tarmac SL (for paint?!) I'm currently building up my old SL frame from 92, had it re-sprayed and I've cleaned up all my old dura ace from back then (always wondered why I hoard stuff..) . Just need a 1A stem and Cinelli Criterium 42 combo to make it authentic.

I'm guessin it's gonna be awesome to look at...and shite to ride!
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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"The fact is, the smaller the operation the more the consumer saves." If ever there was a stretch statement, THAT was it. That simply belies a total lack of understanding of basic economics.

HAHA, I was thinking the same thing. I guess he is unaware of the principle of economies of scale. I think Lightweight is a pretty small operation and no consumers rave about how much money they save buying those wheels!



Portside Athletics Blog
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Of course there is the story of how NASA spent millions to develop a pen that would write in zero gravity and the Russians just use a pencil. Seems like Edges system of molding in holes vs cutting fibers would be a better, and possibly less expensive solution.

Styrrell

Styrrell
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Of course there is the story of how NASA spent millions to develop a pen that would write in zero gravity and the Russians just use a pencil. Seems like Edges system of molding in holes vs cutting fibers would be a better, and possibly less expensive solution.

Styrrell

Fair counter example, except that I don't know that any outside observer ever said something equivalent to "we should buy NASA just for this pen" after the whole process was done. The story about the drill bit is impressive, but what really highlights it is that the composite engineers from SRAM recognized the value in that IP. In other words, it wasn't just Zipp saying we took four years to make an awesome drill bit. The value was/is clearly there, unlike the NASA pen.

I don't know enough about Edge's system to make any sort of fair comparison, but off the cuff that would seem to necessitate a different mold for each # of spokes patterns. That would seem to either add a LOT of cost or it would seem to really limit how many different drillings you could offer. But that's a guess. I would be interested to talk with the guys at Edge at I'bike to learn more about it, assuming they'd share.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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"I don't know enough about Edge's system to make any sort of fair comparison,"

And that was my point in posting my comment. You also don't know a lot about Zipps economics, and virtually nothing about HEDs. You may know what ZIPP internally says their margins are, but at most companies those really aren't calculated particularly exactly.

All I'm saying is much like with aero claims, where we say show me the protocal, we should stay away from talking about cost and profits unless you can show the books.

Styrrell

Styrrell
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [The Real Animal] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
As an end user that isn't in America (so not patriotic need to buy US made) here's my take on a few thigns.

Zipp and HED are aerodynamically similar (i.e. performance basically equivalent) and it seems both companies are openly acknowledging that - the differences are splitting the split ends of hair.

Zipp are more expensive - there is no denying that. The reasons - open to debate, but I agree with Rappstar I don't recall there being a stack more Zipp advertisements then HED. Does the reason really matter - Zipp may have higher labor costs, they might give away more product, they might pay for more staff to attend the tour etc... Really, it's irrelevant as to why - the fact is the wheels cost more.

So performance the same, but expense different - all that is left is for people to start slinging mud to dirty the other's products because the two things that matter, performance and cost are open for all to see.

I find it laughable that anyone would think chinese carbon fibre is somehow a lower quality then American. Give it up anyone trying to claim that a wheel is better because it is made by an American Citizen as opposed to a citizen of an Asian country. That is pathetic.

Maybe Zipps research manufacturing costs are higher, if so, they need to somehow investigate this as their increased expenditure isn't producing faster wheels.

Oh, and joshatzipp claimed that Cav won't ride anything but zipp - and then we have pictures and statements that he actually rides HED's sometimes.

desperate claims and competitor bashing going on here and nobody is really looking any good out of it all. It's like two old ladies arguing at a country fair as to who has the best apple pie.

The *aero* performance is the same. That may be all that matters, and the other differences may be "unnecessary" from the standpoint of the consumer and are also - generally - speaking, harder to measure. And maybe, in many cases, "good enough" actually is plenty good enough. Taking the Jets (fairing bonded onto a structurally complete/sound wheel) vs. Zipp's aluminum-rimmed (co-molded with a structurally essentially carbon section) clinchers as an example, what end benefit does the customer really see? I think that's very debatable. And it's definitely a debate I love to have, but I'll save having that. Keep in mind that according to UCI regs, the Jets *should* be illegal - but because the UCI is so weird, they aren't. But if you read the letter of the UCI rules - and want to make sure your product is allowed - then *technically,* you'd have to build clinchers the way Zipp does.

I don't think anyone would say that Chinese carbon fiber is of lower quality than American - certainly I wouldn't. The reason that Zipp sources and manufactures the way that they do is because they believe it gives them more strict control over quality and, yes, they believe in supporting American businesses. The Chinese make fantastic products out of fantastic materials. But there is also a lot of IT stealing - another very major reason Zipp keeps everything in house. And, having dealt extensively with sourcing product from China in my previous job, there's also other reasons - perhaps ethical ones that don't particularly matter to some people - to manufacture here. If the end product is the same, that's all people care about. But some people also may care about how workers are treated, safety of the environment, etc. That's probably a discussion for the Lavender Room though. And please do not imply that I am saying that quality of the end product is the overwhelming concern. It's more that Zipp wishes to be able to exert day-to-day oversight of their quality. That's important to them.

I realize that it's inevitable that this will be seen as "mud slinging," but that's certainly not my intent. My intent is for there to be simple and clear discussions about the wheels. For example, as I stated in my first post - the wheel was tested with a tire that would void the warranty. The reason for voiding the warranty is never really covered by HED, who simply says that a wider tire is recommended for optimal performance. But if you read the Velonews article, you'll see that the wheel they tested - mounted with a 21mm tire - already showed signs of impact damage to the rim. That's not "mud slinging," that's fact. The reason for that is the excessively deep tire bed on that rim, which is also a major part of why it's fast. Of course, every time I try to have a simple discussion about those sort of things, it inevitably ends up looking like an attack on HED, so then an attack is made on Zipp, and I feel obliged to correct certain mis-statements, like the notion of Zipp's massive advert budget. But keep in mind, we still haven't been able to get a clear answer on the fact that there seem to be two different versions of the S9 - not the S90 vs S9 - but two very different shapes of the S9, at least based on the measurements that have been provided by different folks here and also provided by Josh. So, yes, it appeared like mud slinging, but if you re-read this now very lengthy thread, I was simply pointing out some very relevant issues that I think are very real and factual differences that the end consumer will care about.

Secondly, in terms of the increased expenditure not producing faster wheels, why don't you look at the release timeline of the fastest wheels that have been released lately. The 900 clincher disc - the first bulged disc, the Sub9 - the first wheel to generate negative drag in the tunnel, the 404 carbon clincher & new Firecrest rim shape. Zipp has been ahead of HED in terms of major design breakthroughs every single time. This latest iteration of the Stinger 9 is the first time that HED has come out with a faster wheel before Zipp, and it's rife with problems - not fitting certain frames, not fitting certain brakes, can't be run with narrower tires, etc. All of which are detailed in the Velonews article. Does being first to market - and actually coming up with ideas - cost a lot? Yes. It's a lot more expensive to do the R&D to create a bulged disc than to simply see that it's faster and make one.

As Josh's statements regarding Cav, that's what Cav told him. Cav thanks Zipp in his book. The fact that sometimes the team puts HEDs under him should not be interpreted as Josh giving misinformation. Maybe he needed to swap bikes? Maybe he got a flat? Who knows. When HED sponsors a team, I can imagine plenty of scenarios where a particular rider who requires special personal equipment ends up on team equipment.

At the end of the day, HED makes pretty much equally fast wheels that are a lot cheaper than Zipps. If that's what matters to you, fine. But that's not - in my opinion - the whole story.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
"I don't know enough about Edge's system to make any sort of fair comparison,"

And that was my point in posting my comment. You also don't know a lot about Zipps economics, and virtually nothing about HEDs. You may know what ZIPP internally says their margins are, but at most companies those really aren't calculated particularly exactly.

All I'm saying is much like with aero claims, where we say show me the protocal, we should stay away from talking about cost and profits unless you can show the books.

Styrrell

I probably know more than you think about what Zipp's economics, but it doesn't really matter, because it's not what I know, it's what I can share. In any case, I'd be happy to shelve any and all discussion of economics if everyone would be willing to shelve the argument that Zipps costs more because they spend that much more on marketing than HED.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp | Game Designer @ Zwift

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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Ok share one thing, seeing as its not likely to be very proprietary. How long does Zipp take to amortize the cost of the disk molding machine versus the actual life of the machine until its out of use, inculuding maintenance on said machine?

I'm not concerned with you saying Zipps advertising budget is a small fraction of the cost of making their wheels and its silly to use that as a basis for a buying decision. It when you you give that opinion creedance by trying to estimate other companies costs and business practices that you start to look silly.

Styrrell

Styrrell
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