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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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I'd never predict that a fat oval would be better at zero yaw.

Maybe that finding is the result of the fact that they started at 25 deg yaw and swept down to 0 deg?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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I could see the direction of the sweep having a significant effect on the stall angle, but not at zero yaw. Do we have other aero tests that show a significant effect from this?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Ron I think these new shapes are designed with the tire as a part of the system whereas the older wheels were designed to fix the air after it hits the tire.. if that makes sense.
And yeah tubulars are the fastest option right now. Yes they may not be the best choice for flat prone iron distance folks...but they are faster. I do love the idea of an 808 firecrest though.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [rickn] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [bartturner] [ In reply to ]
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I would really like to understand why Zipp 808 got a better score. What else was used in the comparison. It could not have been price. Bearings? If you use FR I would think they would be even.

I assume the Stinger was the 09 - 10 version. I don't believe there is a new one with a new shape.

Well, that depends on who you ask. As Vince said, it's the one that is currently on the HED site. However, that is NOT the 2009 wheel and also not the wheel that you have been able to buy for much - if not all - of this year. In March of 2010, Zipp bought the "latest" HED Stinger 9 from one of HED's largest retailer, and it's not the wheel that was tested. And they've struggled to find anyone who has it in stock even now. VN also tested with a 21mm tire - which will VOID the warranty on the Stinger 9 should you actually choose to try and repeat the gains for yourself. And of course, if you are a Specialized rider (or numerous other frames), you are SOL because it won't fit in your frame. And if you ride SRAM, you can't use it because it is incompatible with the brake calipers. And if you use older Shimano brakes, you also can't use it for the same reason. And if you use ZeroGravity, you also can't use it. Or any of a long list of other brake calipers.

It's also worth noting that VeloNews had a production prototype of the new 808 Firecrest on hand - they announce it in that issue, but they would not include it in the test because it isn't for sale. Yet. But I can assure you that it beats the Stinger 9 handily, despite being less deep - by 10%, which also results in less than 10% less sideforce.

But yes, that Stinger 9 can be made very aero...


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [rickn] [ In reply to ]
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After the recent thread about how hard at least one of the best clinchers was to get on the rim I'm not so sure I'd choose them for a flat prone race.

Styrrell

Styrrell
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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in my experience when these impossible tire/rim combos happen, its much less difficult after the tire has been on the rim and used a while

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After the recent thread about how hard at least one of the best clinchers was to get on the rim I'm not so sure I'd choose them for a flat prone race.

Styrrell



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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar - would the upcoming 808 Firecrest not have the same fitment issues as the Stinger 9? Regardless, None of those are an issue for me so I just hope they are available in the next couple of months so I can replace my C2 Jet 90 before IMAZ.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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I could see the direction of the sweep having a significant effect on the stall angle, but not at zero yaw.

I was wondering if perhaps they hadn't allowed enough "settling time". If not, then the lower drag at higher yaw angles could carry over to 0 deg of yaw.

Of course, it could also be that some sort of ovoid is good/best even when the wind is always from straight ahead, with what is happening at the back of the wheel making up for what is happening at the front of the wheel.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [TH3_FRB] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar - would the upcoming 808 Firecrest not have the same fitment issues as the Stinger 9? Regardless, None of those are an issue for me so I just hope they are available in the next couple of months so I can replace my C2 Jet 90 before IMAZ.

Not sure what "fitment" issues you mean. You will be able to run any tires you want on the 808 Firecrest. The reason 21mm tires void the HED warranty is due to particulars of how their wheels are constructed.


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [TH3_FRB] [ In reply to ]
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Speculating on something that isn't available to test yet BUT - might a Firecrest 808 rear be faster then a Hed Jet disc or most other discs?
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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It's also worth noting that VeloNews had a production prototype of the new 808 Firecrest on hand...

Would that be a tubular 808 Firecrest, or a CC 808 Firecrest? I only ask since there seems to be some confusion about the 2 individual features ;-)



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I had to adjust the brake bolt to get the stinger 9 to fit but it was no big deal. Took almost 10 seconds.

Now I will say I find the entire sidewind thing to be a bit of a farce. I just tested my race setup in a pretty highwind day. (wind kept blowing over my wheels when I was putting them on the bike) I was running a stinger 9 with a jet disc. No issues whatsoever, didn't notice any stall either. In fact I'd be tempted to say that the stinger 9 gave me less issues than my FP60 had in the past.
FWIW I'm 145 and I might have had a different thought if I wasn't running a disc in the back.

Still I'm all about seeing the new 808 firecrest in the windtunnel.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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After the recent thread about how hard at least one of the best clinchers was to get on the rim I'm not so sure I'd choose them for a flat prone race.

To be fair, that difficulty is IME only on the first installation...



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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It's also worth noting that VeloNews had a production prototype of the new 808 Firecrest on hand...

Would that be a tubular 808 Firecrest, or a CC 808 Firecrest? I only ask since there seems to be some confusion about the 2 individual features ;-)

For this particular test, it was a tubular 808 Firecrest that was made available, since that was the first one made, as it needed to be made available sooner since that is what was ridden in the TdF by Saxo and Astana.


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [rickn] [ In reply to ]
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I had to adjust the brake bolt to get the stinger 9 to fit but it was no big deal. Took almost 10 seconds.

Are you sure that you have the same Stinger 9 that was tested by VN?

The sidewind thing is not a farce. There are definitely days when I've found a 1080 to be unrideable and an 808 on the same day to be very manageable. That's why I rode an 808 at IMC last year. I found the 1080 to be too much on all of my test rides the week leading up to the race.


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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So now that's it's more publicly announced than the last time I was pestering you about the 808 Firecrest (Edit: Carbon Clincher not tubular).....any idea on the release timing? I'm curious if they will hit the market before next June.


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Last edited by: Tom3: Jul 29, 10 11:05
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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You CAN USE SRAM RED, Rival or Force brakes with our Stingers ............. I have that setup on 3 bikes and dont have to sand the pads down. Its a simple adjustment

AND YOU CAN get the Stingers to work on a Specialized, we use a double flanged hub that makes the wheel fit narrow rear stays. You just need to tell us that when it gets ordered.


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Last edited by: Vince@HED: Jul 29, 10 11:07
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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VN also tested with a 21mm tire - which will VOID the warranty on the Stinger 9 should you actually choose to try and repeat the gains for yourself. And of course, if you are a Specialized rider (or numerous other frames), you are SOL because it won't fit in your frame. And if you ride SRAM, you can't use it because it is incompatible with the brake calipers.

while this is simply supposition on my part, given that the actual rim bed is wider on the HED than the Zipps, my guess is that using a 21 versus a 23 actually narrows the gap between the two wheels. If the wheels were tested with 23's, I wouldn't be surprised if the HED's were farther ahead. Of course, you could compare a Zipp/21 and a HED/23, but then you'd also have to figure in the rolling resistance advantage of the wider tires.

As to your other points, they're simply not true. The Stinger 9's fit both the Transitions and Sram brakes, easily. The only clearance issues are with the Stinger 6's, which are much wider (and do fit Sram brakes with the proper brake pad).

It's fine to be supportive of your sponsors, but your zeal seems to be getting in the way of your objectivity.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I've not ridden a 1080. Just said that the stinger 9 gave me little issue on a very windy day. The extra 18mm may well make a difference.
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [roady] [ In reply to ]
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VN also tested with a 21mm tire - which will VOID the warranty on the Stinger 9 should you actually choose to try and repeat the gains for yourself. And of course, if you are a Specialized rider (or numerous other frames), you are SOL because it won't fit in your frame. And if you ride SRAM, you can't use it because it is incompatible with the brake calipers.

while this is simply supposition on my part, given that the actual rim bed is wider on the HED than the Zipps, my guess is that using a 21 versus a 23 actually narrows the gap between the two wheels. If the wheels were tested with 23's, I wouldn't be surprised if the HED's were farther ahead. Of course, you could compare a Zipp/21 and a HED/23, but then you'd also have to figure in the rolling resistance advantage of the wider tires.

As to your other points, they're simply not true. The Stinger 9's fit both the Transitions and Sram brakes, easily. The only clearance issues are with the Stinger 6's, which are much wider (and do fit Sram brakes with the proper brake pad).

It's fine to be supportive of your sponsors, but your zeal seems to be getting in the way of your objectivity.

See Vince's reply above. I am not being overzealous. You need to have the wheel built on a different hub to get it fit the Transition. I would think I could be forgiven for not knowing there is a special hub required for certain frames.

As for the tire testing, it's not really so straightforward. Most of the time, when wheels are optimized around a given tire width, a narrower tire is often still faster, just less fast than would be the case with a rim optimized for narrower tires. So it's not like a rim designed for 23mm tires is faster than that same rim with a 21mm tire. It's very hard to get around the "problem" of frontal area. But, regardless, I would agree that the HED *might* be further ahead than if they had done ALL tests with a 23. But if you want to compare Zipp+21 vs. HED+23 then that's a different story. You cannot assume that HED+23 is faster than HED+21, even if the rim was optimized for a wider tire. But the point is really that you cannot run a 21mm on the HEDs because it will void the warranty, and therefore, it would seem that the test results are not really "fair."

Again, for most people, the Stinger 9 that was tested is NOT the same as what most people have bought or even can buy right now. And it definitely wasn't the wheel that was available via retail when VN actually ran the test.

So unless you are SURE you have the same wheel that was tested - which is unlikely given that Vince has already specified that it needs to be built with a narrower flanged hub in order to fit a transition - you can't use your own experiences a "proof" that I am misspeaking or not being objective.


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [Tom3] [ In reply to ]
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So now that's it's more publicly announced than the last time I was pestering you about the 808 Firecrest (Edit: Carbon Clincher not tubular).....any idea on the release timing? I'm curious if they will hit the market before next June.

I'm not sure. Keep in mind that it's a bunch of new wheels, so I don't think the release date for all iterations has been set yet.


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Ask me about: 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2019 | Zipp | Quarq | SRAM
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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [rickn] [ In reply to ]
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We say a 23mm tire for increased impact resistance. The 22mm and lower tires could ..... could ..... be more prone to pinch flats because of the C2 rim causes the tire to spread wider and the edges of the rim will hit the tire and pinch it. The 23mm tire will give the tire enough room to stop that possibility of pinch flatting


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Re: Velonews aero wheel test... Stinger 9 is the best [rickn] [ In reply to ]
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I've not ridden a 1080. Just said that the stinger 9 gave me little issue on a very windy day. The extra 18mm may well make a difference.

That's fair - and in my experience true. But you specifically said, "Now I will say I find the entire sidewind thing to be a bit of a farce." Now maybe the 808 vs. Stinger 9 is never an issue for you. But let's say you are just able to control an 808. That extra 10% with a Stinger 9 could well be too much. The 808 is easy to handle for me, but for someone smaller, it might be a lot of wheel. So, while side area may not be an issue for you between the 808 & Stinger 9, it's hardly a farce. That 10% is going to matter to some people. Maybe not to you, which is great. But it will definitely matter to some people...


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