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USRPT for other sports?
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So I've been reading a fair amount on USRPT training, and I think I'm going to go that route for the summer months as a personal experiment. As I was doing my homework on it though, it got me wondering why you couldn't apply those same principles to other sports, specifically running and cycling.

Hear me out.

My understanding of USRPT and swimming, at a very basic level is this (basic example in parens)...

  1. Swim a race/time trial at your chosen distance (400m in 8 min).
  2. Determine the rep distance for your set (50m).
  3. Calculate rep time by race pace from step 1 (1 min).
  4. Determine max reps (there are several things to consider here, but let's just go with the suggested* 30 in this case)
  5. Breaks are based on rep distance (15s).

A person ends a set when they fail 2 reps in a row. If they fail 1 rep, the sit out a rep and try again on the next interval.

So I ask, why not apply this to say.... running?

Repeating the steps above with a lot of made up magic on my part...
  1. Race a 24min 5k
  2. Choosing rep distance is magic to me, so say, 400m.
  3. Rep time then is 1:55.
  4. Again, this step is magic to me, so say 16? I don't know. I'm making this up. That's about 4 miles at race pace, which seems very good for a 5k. Maybe more reps?
  5. Breaks are 30 seconds just to extrapolate from above, since the rep time is about double in this running example.

I'm sure the times I chose for the running example can be corrected somewhat, but I think the idea comes across.

So I ask, what is the magic in USRPT for swimming such that it will or won't apply to other sports of this nature?

To head off some arguments/start discussion...
  • I don't think you can dismiss it on the grounds of "injury prone". One of the main points of USRPT is that form is a vital factor. Once your form falls apart, you can safely say you failed that rep. This *should* keep people from running extended distances which compromised form which could lead to injury.
  • No aerobic base training! I'm not sold this is a problem, and maybe that's the weakness in my argument. It seems to work for swimming, and step one already assumes you can run a 5k, and this process gets you above that mileage before working on going faster, so I *think* it should suffice.
  • I'm sure someone will point out that top racers put in 4 bajillion miles a week and this would never work for them. That's fine. I don't really care what they are doing. I'm concerned with maximizing my return on (my limited time) investment.
  • Plenty of training plans already sprinkle in race pace repeats during the "specialty" phase, so the idea obviously isn't completely foreign, even if the plans vary wildly.

I'm honestly considering doing my swim AND run training this way, if I can figure out proper timing/distances for sets. I'm doing exclusively sprints this year, and the risk to my run is minimal since I'm not crazy fast off the bike anyway. At best, I actually do well running. At worst, well, I'm confident I'll still be able to run my normally slow 5k.

So tell me why I'm crazy. Or a genius. I will take both.


* Disclaimer *

I kindly ask that if you think USRPT is the same as your speed day, that you don't chime in until you understand it a bit more.

* I get most of my USRPT info from this document: https://coachsci.sdsu.edu/.../bullets/47GUIDE.pdf
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Re: USRPT for other sports? [cujo] [ In reply to ]
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Unless you've tried it already, one thing is that you shouldn't underestimate how difficult it is to execute correctly. I've done USRPT type workouts in the past, and they are freakin' hard.

As for run training, the thing to realize is that every time you do it you will be failing to hold form. That's the point, that you fail and then your brain rewires itself. So in my mind, that does carry some injury risk along with it.

Whether you agree with it or not, there is a lot of background research that Rushall put into coming up with the suggested max reps and interval distances, it's not sufficient to say that choosing rep length is magic or arbitrary. Choose wisely.



cujo wrote:
So I've been reading a fair amount on USRPT training, and I think I'm going to go that route for the summer months as a personal experiment. As I was doing my homework on it though, it got me wondering why you couldn't apply those same principles to other sports, specifically running and cycling.

Hear me out.

My understanding of USRPT and swimming, at a very basic level is this (basic example in parens)...

  1. Swim a race/time trial at your chosen distance (400m in 8 min).
  2. Determine the rep distance for your set (50m).
  3. Calculate rep time by race pace from step 1 (1 min).
  4. Determine max reps (there are several things to consider here, but let's just go with the suggested* 30 in this case)
  5. Breaks are based on rep distance (15s).

A person ends a set when they fail 2 reps in a row. If they fail 1 rep, the sit out a rep and try again on the next interval.

So I ask, why not apply this to say.... running?

Repeating the steps above with a lot of made up magic on my part...
  1. Race a 24min 5k
  2. Choosing rep distance is magic to me, so say, 400m.
  3. Rep time then is 1:55.
  4. Again, this step is magic to me, so say 16? I don't know. I'm making this up. That's about 4 miles at race pace, which seems very good for a 5k. Maybe more reps?
  5. Breaks are 30 seconds just to extrapolate from above, since the rep time is about double in this running example.

I'm sure the times I chose for the running example can be corrected somewhat, but I think the idea comes across.

So I ask, what is the magic in USRPT for swimming such that it will or won't apply to other sports of this nature?

To head off some arguments/start discussion...
  • I don't think you can dismiss it on the grounds of "injury prone". One of the main points of USRPT is that form is a vital factor. Once your form falls apart, you can safely say you failed that rep. This *should* keep people from running extended distances which compromised form which could lead to injury.
  • No aerobic base training! I'm not sold this is a problem, and maybe that's the weakness in my argument. It seems to work for swimming, and step one already assumes you can run a 5k, and this process gets you above that mileage before working on going faster, so I *think* it should suffice.
  • I'm sure someone will point out that top racers put in 4 bajillion miles a week and this would never work for them. That's fine. I don't really care what they are doing. I'm concerned with maximizing my return on (my limited time) investment.
  • Plenty of training plans already sprinkle in race pace repeats during the "specialty" phase, so the idea obviously isn't completely foreign, even if the plans vary wildly.

I'm honestly considering doing my swim AND run training this way, if I can figure out proper timing/distances for sets. I'm doing exclusively sprints this year, and the risk to my run is minimal since I'm not crazy fast off the bike anyway. At best, I actually do well running. At worst, well, I'm confident I'll still be able to run my normally slow 5k.

So tell me why I'm crazy. Or a genius. I will take both.


* Disclaimer *

I kindly ask that if you think USRPT is the same as your speed day, that you don't chime in until you understand it a bit more.

* I get most of my USRPT info from this document: https://coachsci.sdsu.edu/.../bullets/47GUIDE.pdf

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: USRPT for other sports? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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I don't mean to suggest the rep length/rest/number is arbitrary. Just that I don't (yet) understand the science behind it.

Good point about form. The more I think about it, 400m may be too long for the same effect. Just comparing to the swim numbers, my gut feeling is that a lot more can go wrong in 2 minutes of running poorly than 2 minutes of swimming poorly.
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Re: USRPT for other sports? [cujo] [ In reply to ]
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As a USRPT practitioner in the pool, I've tried to use similar process with running. What I came to realize is that running at race pace is much more destructive than swimming at race pace, and that I couldn't recover from a USRPT run session before my next run workout. Also negatively impacted my cycling.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: USRPT for other sports? [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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What was your running protocol? What distance were you targeting? I'd like to get a feel for what's been tried.
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Re: USRPT for other sports? [cujo] [ In reply to ]
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This is used in running/cycling but..... it only happens 1-2x week/10 days. Running has a super high risk of injury with workouts like this.
Humans are designed to run. We can run with poor form and still go fast. Swimming....not so much.
If you run with poor form for long enough, you'll hurt yourself.

If you're interested in the idea, I say go for it. But only do it for your main workouts. The rest of your workouts can still be easy aerobic work.
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Re: USRPT for other sports? [oprfcc] [ In reply to ]
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I've never seen USRPT used in running or cycling before. It's not the same as speedwork, it is a very specific protocol.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: USRPT for other sports? [cujo] [ In reply to ]
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I’ve applied the principles of it and “race pace” training to triathlon training and it works well. It’s a lot more efficient than a more traditional, orthodox approach. One of the athletes I work with qualified for Kona.

"As a coach, shouldn't my goal be to see how little I have to train athletes for peak performance?" - Dave Salo

If I remember correctly, while doing his (Salo) PhD work, applied the principles of “high intensity, low yardage” to himself to train for a triathlon. This was back in the 80s.

Hope this helps.

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: USRPT for other sports? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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The US nordic combine team was doing it in the 80's/90's. It wasn't called USRPT, but it was the exact same thing. You hit the pace, until you don't hit the pace. Of course in cycling/running there are more repercussions from big miles at speed. So it has to be used more gingerly.
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Re: USRPT for other sports? [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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When you say you've applied to tri training, you mean to the cycling and running parts also? I know you have written here about doing it for swimming.
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Re: USRPT for other sports? [cujo] [ In reply to ]
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Yes. I don’t talk about it much, but I’ve been coaching athletes in the swim, bike and run for almost 5 years now.

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: USRPT for other sports? [cujo] [ In reply to ]
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My high school team ran this workout 1x per year...
It was a 4 min mile challenge.

We ran 200s leaving every 60 secs.
If we missed 30 secs, we sat one out and joined the next.
I can't remember the most we could run.. But i think the fastest i ever did a "4:12"

One of the hardest days of the year, bar none
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Re: USRPT for other sports? [cujo] [ In reply to ]
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I enjoy the banter about workouts, but - with all due respect and affection...

If you boil it down; it's all about the stress response, surviving that response (to be able to train in the next session), and most important, recovery. In the big picture, your body doesn't care all that much about the stress response (with-in reason). Quite simply give it stress that doesn't break you, recover. Lather, rinse repeat.

Really, when race day comes it's better to completely believe in a mediocre training regimen, then to have doubts about the best program in the world (if such a thing were even possible).

Reminds me of a certain former ST'er who generated zillions of posts looking for the so called exact to the millimeter crank length (with a Velotron). What a waste of time. Better to just go ride.

Work hard, but enjoy the journey. Race with confidence, as if you've been perfectly prepared, and believe everybody else hasn't.

I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________
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