looks like your USRPT and Triathlon Swim Training link is no good. "Oops, that page can't be found"

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TEAM F3 Undurance

Sorry about that. I updated the website a while back and some of the links got broken. I need to update that article anyway.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Swim coaching with an orthodox, periodized approach is really starting to show its age. Why as a coach would you train an athlete on twice the volume that you need to, if you can do half as much and get to the same place or better.

If you want to say that Michael Andrew proves that race paced training is only good for 50s, then you could equally argue that Caleb Dressel could be a lot faster if he stopped swimming 20x400IMs as a sprinter. Is Dressel’s success because of the coaching or in spite of it?

You might want to look again at race paced training producing distance swimmers. I know the swim coaching community likes to ignore his success and pretend it doesn’t exist because it wrecks the “only volume” argument, but Dave Salo has produced world championship distance swimmers on a lot less volume.

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Totally! If you're not getting feedback on your drill form/technique (either by a coach or by video), how do you know that you're employing them properly to improve your technique? Wasted time, IMO.

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https://connect.garmin.com/modern/profile/domingjm

Ok. So, this winter I'm having the opposite problem that I was having this summer. Ie, in the early summer I was overtraining, and backsliding on the USRPT sets.

At the moment, I've pretty much gone all-in on the swim, and only pay a little lip-service to the bike and run. I'm doing 2 main USRPT workouts a week (a set of 50s one day, and a set of 100s the other), and 2 swims with a more technique focus (drills from coach), and one longer interval swim (4-6x400 (30s)). Note the 400s typically work out to about the same pace as my 20x100s set for that week (eg, 6:52/400 last Saturday vice 1:41/100 on friday)---so, its not just a slog.

The issue that I'm having (if you can call it an "issue") is that my adaptation on the 100s is happening faster than my sample rate. What I mean by that is that by the time I come back and do another set of USRPT 100s (1x per week), the pace I did last week is "too easy". For example:

11/30: 22x100 usrpt @ 1:41 pace. Failed at #10, #17, #22
12/06: 25x100 usrpt @ 1:39 pace. Failed at #15, #20, #25

Strictly speaking I "should" have done today's set at 1:41 and gone all the way through #20+ at that pace. But, my first 5 intervals were 1:37/1:42/1:37/1:38/1:39, and I was actually trying (unsuccessfully) to slow to the 1:41 pace. The 1:39 felt like a pace that I could sustain well into the offering, so I just went with it. This is fairly common with the 100s, less so with the 50s.

So, I guess my question is...is there anything fundamentally wrong with using my pace for the first 5 to set the pace for the rest of the day...and never actually working through the 20x100 at the "set pace"? I guess its working, so....I probably shouldn't complain until it stops.

I have no opinion on USRPT because I don't know enough about it, but when you say @ 1:39, what is your interval? The very little I do know about USRPT has me wondering .. are 100s typical in USRPT training? I thought there was a lot of 25 and 50 work.

The length of the interval depends on the event you are training for. Ideally race distance is 4-8x the interval distance. So, 100s are typical in USRPT when training for 400 and up.

Strictly speaking USRPT prescribes 20s rest for all sets regardless of repeat length. So, my send-off for the 1:39s would be roughly 2:00.

I'd say you are doing your 100's too slow. If you are doing a "distance day" of 4-6 x 400 on 30s rest, then that will be slower than your 400m race pace. Under the USRPT paradigm, you want to be swimming at your "race pace" for all of your repeats.

Do a 400m time trial and use that result for your target paces.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Wait. I'm training for Oly distance, not a 400. I'm not saying you're wrong....just trying to understand the logic. ??

I've been doing the 4-6 400s to work on the mental aspect of swimming hard for longer continuous bouts---without just doing a 1500m straight. Something that I have struggled with on OD races...mentally, not physically. Initially the 400s were WAAAAY off my USRPT 100s pace...by, like 8 seconds (7:34/400 v. 1:45/100). Now, its more like 1-2s.

Do you still think that means I'm swimming the 100s too slow?

For USRPT you want to train your 100's faster, yes. Plus, swimming faster 100's will eventually translate into faster 400's and then 1500's, etc.

Scott

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Ah, OK. I'll have to think about that. I think I have the USRPT "bible" saved somewhere on my system, I need to refresh my memory.

I believe that the longest repeat under strict USRPT is 100m, but I'm questioning whether you should be bumping that up to 150's or so.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Cool....I'm thinking just right then. GarryP had recommended 125s for an open 1500m race. I don't like ending on the wrong side of the pool---its just WRONG. And an OD swim isn't a 1500m race. So, THAT is exactly my plan come January.

ETA: I also have a plan to bump up to 200s starting in March.

Ha! I love doing 75's and 125's in practice, really, anything that's kind of an odd (i.e. non-standard competition) distance.

That said, I do take issue with Tigerchik's habit of ending a workout at the opposite end of where she gets in. Now THAT is wrong.....

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

You want to really get a handle on understanding USRPT (and be shocked at the amount of rubbish there is on forums everywhere about it)...then read THIS by Brent Rushall. Really dig into it and understand what USRPT is and is not. You'll likely be surprised by some of it.

Kudos to you for engaging in your current "all in" approach to swimming and I hope you are enjoying the process!

As a triathlete and Masters swim coach we have used USRPT quite a bit for the past few years seeing good success with the classic type of training with swimmers who race 200-500 . For myself as 63 year triathlete and open water swimmer who races 1-5k I have tweaked it with sets of 100's to 200's. I.E., a set of 20-40 x100 on 15-20 second rest at goal pace teaches sustainable pace. I also use a shorter set of 50-75's such as 6x50 at 1-5k goal pace with 2-5 seconds rest and 30-60 seconds between rounds. Coming from a lifetime as competitive runner this concept isn't new but with swimming this is a ways to be direct and to the point. One area I've seen in competitive swimming especially at the shorter distance has been improvement through the rounds to the finals. For a triathlete or open water swimmer this is direct and focused with their time this is a good option.

Can you share an example of a USRPT set you've given or used (triathlon specific here) for one or more of the below:

750m swim leg of a Sprint Triathlon, open water venue, and indicate as likely wetsuit or non-wetsuit legal.
1500m swim leg...same, you see where this is going?
1.9K swim leg...same, Half Ironman
3.8K swim leg...same, Ironman

For all distances I have used variations of the sets listed above . For the IM swim I use a set of 40x100 at race pace with 10-20 seconds recovery, or 10-20x200 at 30 sr. For shorter distance shorter sets of 50's with 5 second rest 6x50 on 5 seconds rest 30-60 seconds between sets.

I’d drop the 400s and do another race pace set of 25s during the week. I’d also get rid of the drill/technique focused workouts and do an easy recovery swim instead. In reality, the race paced work should be heavily technique focused. It’s part of the reason you watch the clock so closely with every repeat.. If you are holding the same pace on the 400s as the 100s then you’re doing the 100s too slow.

What is your interval for the 100s when you held 1:39?

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

I've read that PDF many, many times.

Race pace set of 25s? I wasn't expecting that. How many reps...20, 40? Same 20s rest? What starting pace: 100 race pace?

So that would be 3 race-pace sets per week: one of 25s, 50s, and 100s plus 1-2 recovery swims in between, every week.

Note: I do the 50s as 20x50 on 20s rest. Coming in at 43s. I think that's close to a 200 race-pace.



I was using the drill/technique focused workouts as easy days. What would an easy recovery swim look like? I've never done one.



Its not quite the same, but its pretty close (~2s per 100). What would you expect to be the pace difference between 4x400 (30s) and 16x100 (20s)?

I've just been progressing the 100s by about 2s/100 as I manage to hold the pace for 20 reps. This morning my first failure was at #15. I figured it was self-regulating. I always try and pick a pace that I think I can hold for 10-12 reps to start, and go from there.

I've been averaging an increase in 100 pace of about 2s per week since November 1st. This week is no different.



2:00 minute send-off, coming in at 1:39.

As always....I appreciate your input.

I will do sets of 40-80x25 on 30!

That sounds like about 10s rest, yes? What race pace is that for you?

Do you do them to failure USRPT style? If so, how many do you aim for before upping the pace?

Seems like the rest/work ratio would be too soft for any race 400m or longer. And, damn, that's a long time invested to get 2000 yards in at a distance race pace.

Not that I'm against 25's. Even when I'm focused on longer events, I'll put a set of USRPT 25's on the schedule now and then. Or throw a "1/2 set" at the end of a workout. But it's at 100 race pace. Always. Every time. If you're going that short, go for power. (I don't care what distance you plan to race; it's nice to have a little more peak power potential). If you want to get 1000-2000 yards/meters of distance race pace work it, there are more efficient and effective ways to do it than a gazillion consecutive 25's.

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In post 59, Tom wrote this - "Wait. I'm training for Oly distance, not a 400."

"For 1500m repetitions, 50 (rarely), 75, and 100m are the suggested distances. The 25m possibility is just too short to perform without having to perform a huge number of repetitions,which would be a waste of valuable pool time." - Brent S. Rushall, PhD

Looks like traditional swim training to me. None of those are USRPT sets, which is what this thread is about.