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Re: USDA has a deal with Levi Leipheimer, George Hincapie, David Zabriskie and Christian Vande Velde according to a paper [JRenfro] [ In reply to ]
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JRenfro wrote:
You are living in a dream world, if you think your kids are going to get a fair shot in pro-cycling playing without the use of PEDs

OK Lance.
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Re: USDA has a deal with Levi Leipheimer, George Hincapie, David Zabriskie and Christian Vande Velde according to a paper [SWoo] [ In reply to ]
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SWoo wrote:
What's interesting to me is that if they found something odd in Armstrong's data, there's a whole lot of fish to fry from 2010 that were the same or worse by the standards of 2010


http://www.cyclingnews.com/...-2010-tour-de-france


So LA was within the "Ratings from two to four were based on stable passports which nevertheless showed a rare abnormality at a precise time." Lots of other current riders in that same group as well as other riders in the more serious categories that USADA or even UCI could go after. I know I know, USADA can only go after its own athletes. But LA was in the same rating classification as Tyler Farrar, Leiphimer, CVV, Brent Brookwalter...etc.


Seems to be fair, if the 2009/2010 passport data is the main piece USADA is using, that those others should also be investigated.
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Re: USDA has a deal with Levi Leipheimer, George Hincapie, David Zabriskie and Christian Vande Velde according to a paper [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Not following you...JRenfrom keeps using the statement that Lance never tested positive to somehow prove that he never doped. He also keeps saying that USADA and WADA are ineffective on testing, saying that many athletes are not being detected. He then said that someones kids will never have a fair playing fied and could not rise to the top unless they doped.
So, is that not contradicting his assertions that Lance never testing positive is some proof of innocence? If he claims all the anti-doping agencies are no good and finding dopers, is it not a false argument to claim his non positives are proof?
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Re: USDA has a deal with Levi Leipheimer, George Hincapie, David Zabriskie and Christian Vande Velde according to a paper [styrrell] [ In reply to ]
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styrrell wrote:

he really has to choose


he can be the clean team that doesn't approve of doping and takes a hard line, but he really has to come clean about His past and explain it thenj, rather than beoijg lowkey and evasive.

or he can be like every one else and hire known dopers and say the past is the past, but shit up about how holier tha n thou his team is, but if his team is so proactive and they really don't care about results if they have to get them by doping why do riders on the team keep getting sanctioned, including one this week.

Why? Because you want him to? Every person in cycling knows he doped. Every potential rider, every sponsor he gets onboard. He tells schoolchildren for christ sake. Theyre not being selfrightous, theyre simply saying what theyre doing.

The guy on the team got sanctioned this week had nothing to do with doping. Hell he was at races for 2 of those 3 "whereabouts violation" where he was actually tested, not hiding in his shower for 30 minutes while the guy from anti-doping waited outside. he didnt have an anti-doping violation, but thats all people see is "suspended because of not being where he said he would be". Its because the whereabouts system is archaic mess of paperwork. Think of the worst system imaginable to report your time at work, and then think 10 times worse than that, and thats the whereabouts system.
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Re: USDA has a deal with Levi Leipheimer, George Hincapie, David Zabriskie and Christian Vande Velde according to a paper [53x12] [ In reply to ]
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53x12 wrote:
SWoo wrote:
What's interesting to me is that if they found something odd in Armstrong's data, there's a whole lot of fish to fry from 2010 that were the same or worse by the standards of 2010


http://www.cyclingnews.com/...-2010-tour-de-france


So LA was within the "Ratings from two to four were based on stable passports which nevertheless showed a rare abnormality at a precise time." Lots of other current riders in that same group as well as other riders in the more serious categories that USADA or even UCI could go after. I know I know, USADA can only go after its own athletes. But LA was in the same rating classification as Tyler Farrar, Leiphimer, CVV, Brent Brookwalter...etc.


Seems to be fair, if the 2009/2010 passport data is the main piece USADA is using, that those others should also be investigated.

And no one said they haven't. What some of you folks seem not to grasp is, we dont know when there's an investigation, only when charges result from an investigation. They dont publicly announce non-analytical findings investigations unless those bring a charge. They may have looked into the other ones and not seen enough to bring charges. Certainly they werent given the golden ticket of eyewitness testimony against most of them im sure. I

Further, you listed basically all the US riders who were at the same suspicion level, and they likely all have been looked at, supposing the UCI actually has done its work. But of course they had 5 cases of actual positives from 2010 that as of this spring they still hadnt moved on ( by their own admission). Any one of those guys, including Lance, could be in those 5.

its not a witch hunt, if theres an actual witch.
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Re: USDA has a deal with Levi Leipheimer, George Hincapie, David Zabriskie and Christian Vande Velde according to a paper [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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There are two arguments.

1. Lance never tested positive. If one of the criteria for proving doping is testing positive, and he never tested positive that goes in his favor. Innocent until proven guilty.

2. The whole anti-doping apparati is a failure.
a. they don't prevent doping
b. their ability to detect doping is so bad, that there is no faith in their methodologies.
Lance tested negative in hundreds of tests, now you say and others say, well the tests weren't good enough, aren't you just proving to me that anti-doping rules and testing is irrelevant.
Maybe he tested negative because he was clean.
c. anti-doping rules and regulations chill research into the use of various medications that actually will improve human performance, endurance, perhaps longevity if at least not quality of life.
i. Wouldn't you take a pill or series of pills or injections that would make you stronger, fitter, leaner, live longer, have better tissue regeneration and recovery, able to be more productive, with minimal if any side effects. Shouldn't that be the goal of science to help mankind. Yet, people pushing the envelope, whether private labs or doctors looking at various meds are persecuted and crucified. Seems rather backwards to me.
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Re: USDA has a deal with Levi Leipheimer, George Hincapie, David Zabriskie and Christian Vande Velde according to a paper [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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sorry, it was an attack against his convoluted "logic", not you

the point is that his argument has morphed from claiming LA's innocence (via the never tested positive claim) to one of let them all dope anyway b/c anti-doping doesn't work. Of course his statements regarding passing the tests but citing examples of gaming the doping-controls are contradictory, but it no longer matters b/c he has shifted what he's arguing, which is that let them all dope.
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Re: USDA has a deal with Levi Leipheimer, George Hincapie, David Zabriskie and Christian Vande Velde according to a paper [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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My arguments haven't shifted. You are dense.

My argument vis a vis Lance is he never tested positive and it is a witch hunt.

There is generally policy implication with regard to doping, that has no bearing on my belief of whether Lance doped or not. These policy reasons are detailed in many of my posts.

Perhaps reading what I wrote and not creating some narrative that fits your own personal beliefs would disavow you from your nonsense.
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Re: USDA has a deal with Levi Leipheimer, George Hincapie, David Zabriskie and Christian Vande Velde according to a paper [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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BLeP wrote:
Assuming that this report turns out to be true, what have we learned? Well we have learned what we already knew... Everyone in that era was doping.


Zzzzz..... wake me up when this is over and they have awarded those 7 tours to nobody because everyone was guilty.

agreed.
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Re: USDA has a deal with Levi Leipheimer, George Hincapie, David Zabriskie and Christian Vande Velde according to a paper [duncan] [ In reply to ]
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duncan wrote:
Crmurphy wrote:
x1

I Love Lance and him being dropped from WTC bothers me immensely.

Do I believe he doped, yes.


So you want someone you believe to be a doper competing in WTC triathlons?

You don't seem to up in arms that Leipheimer, Vande Velde, Zabriski, Hincapie, Vinokourov, Basso, etc. are currently (at this very moment) racing (and Vaughters participating in) the Tour de France
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Re: USDA has a deal with Levi Leipheimer, George Hincapie, David Zabriskie and Christian Vande Velde according to a paper [JRenfro] [ In reply to ]
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JRenfro wrote:
My arguments haven't shifted. You are dense.

My argument vis a vis Lance is he never tested positive and it is a witch hunt.

There is generally policy implication with regard to doping, that has no bearing on my belief of whether Lance doped or not. These policy reasons are detailed in many of my posts.

Perhaps reading what I wrote and not creating some narrative that fits your own personal beliefs would disavow you from your nonsense.

two can play this game of name calling.

seriously, how much is Fabiani paying you?
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Re: USDA has a deal with Levi Leipheimer, George Hincapie, David Zabriskie and Christian Vande Velde according to a paper [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Don't mischaracterize my posts.

I must have said the same thing in 3 or 4 separate posts in this thread and countless others in other threads.

Let me clear it up for you
1. Lance has not tested positive.
2. Going after Lance is a political witch hunt, much as the same as going after Clemens, Bonds, etc was.
3. Irrespective of the case or lack thereof against Lance, society should reflect on the benefits of having these anti-doping agencies be around in the first place especially when they are subsidized by tax payer money, and consider that their mission is net negative.
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Re: USDA has a deal with Levi Leipheimer, George Hincapie, David Zabriskie and Christian Vande Velde according to a paper [JRenfro] [ In reply to ]
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To:...My argument vis a vis Lance is he never tested positive and it is a witch hunt.
So you think the premise for the biological passport is flawed since it is based on athletes being able to pass tests. Your logic would mean that every athlete who passed a test but was found guilty through the passport is being unfairly targeted.
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Re: USDA has a deal with Levi Leipheimer, George Hincapie, David Zabriskie and Christian Vande Velde according to a paper [JRenfro] [ In reply to ]
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If it is a political witch hunt who is going to be elected by finding Lance guilty?. .................Glad amgen did not develop epo for cyclists too!....How many medical Dr's can you site that claim they are not getting grants due to not being able to come up with drugs for athletes? Or do you mean we need more Balco labs to help us
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Re: USDA has a deal with Levi Leipheimer, George Hincapie, David Zabriskie and Christian Vande Velde according to a paper [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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OH, Thanks.......
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Re: USDA has a deal with Levi Leipheimer, George Hincapie, David Zabriskie and Christian Vande Velde according to a paper [cidewar] [ In reply to ]
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cidewar wrote:
Frank Schleck also got busted for paying a known doping Dr almost 20k for "training plans" he didn't remember receiving....

And didn't know who he was sending the money to :)

About as silly as claiming you're paying a hematologist six figures (who would eventually be banned from cycling because of his doping involement) and not allowing him to have your rivals as clients all for some LT testing and training plans...

and having lots of people believe you.
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Re: USDA has a deal with Levi Leipheimer, George Hincapie, David Zabriskie and Christian Vande Velde according to a paper [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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It would boost the career of the officals of the USADA, and may enable them to get more funding for their misguided efforts. Politics doesn't necessarily have to do with elections.

The whole point is the anti-doping establishment chills any research into these potentially drugs. Much like censorship chills speech. Why do you think Kobe Bryant and other athletes go to some private clinic in Germany for PRP-like treatments and do go to some local guy.

The research into these rejuvenating therapies is overall chilled by the misguided steps of WADA, USADA, etc.
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Re: USDA has a deal with Levi Leipheimer, George Hincapie, David Zabriskie and Christian Vande Velde according to a paper [JRenfro] [ In reply to ]
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Are you really that clueless ? I suppose Nixon was innocent, it was just a bunch of criminals and poltical motivations that brought him down.........No no wait, don't answer that. May be here all day
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Re: USDA has a deal with Levi Leipheimer, George Hincapie, David Zabriskie and Christian Vande Velde according to a paper [JRenfro] [ In reply to ]
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No. The research is chilled by "charitable" organizations that pull funding from actual research in favor of "awareness".
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Re: USDA has a deal with Levi Leipheimer, George Hincapie, David Zabriskie and Christian Vande Velde according to a paper [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Because watergate is the same as the Lance witchhunt.


Maybe you want to revisit your American History and pick a better moment, such as McCarthyism. That is a little more apropos.
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Re: USDA has a deal with Levi Leipheimer, George Hincapie, David Zabriskie and Christian Vande Velde according to a paper [JRenfro] [ In reply to ]
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JRenfro wrote:
It would boost the career of the officals of the USADA, and may enable them to get more funding for their misguided efforts. Politics doesn't necessarily have to do with elections.

The whole point is the anti-doping establishment chills any research into these potentially drugs. Much like censorship chills speech. Why do you think Kobe Bryant and other athletes go to some private clinic in Germany for PRP-like treatments and do go to some local guy.

The research into these rejuvenating therapies is overall chilled by the misguided steps of WADA, USADA, etc.

What color is the sky on your planet?
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Re: USDA has a deal with Levi Leipheimer, George Hincapie, David Zabriskie and Christian Vande Velde according to a paper [JRenfro] [ In reply to ]
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So Nixon was witchhunt and Mcathyism was not?...How old are you? Really?..Reading wikipedia again?
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Re: USDA has a deal with Levi Leipheimer, George Hincapie, David Zabriskie and Christian Vande Velde according to a paper [TomkR] [ In reply to ]
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Is that actually happening here, or was that a throw-away line? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Livestrong gets very high marks for its contributions to research. You didn't get any of that money? ;)

-Robert

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank
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Re: USDA has a deal with Levi Leipheimer, George Hincapie, David Zabriskie and Christian Vande Velde according to a paper [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Let me help you out. Here is an SAT analogy for you:

Salem : Witch Trials :: Lance : ?

or

McCarthyism : Due Process :: Lance : ?
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Re: USDA has a deal with Levi Leipheimer, George Hincapie, David Zabriskie and Christian Vande Velde according to a paper [JRenfro] [ In reply to ]
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Dude, I think you need to reread American history. The things you equate are well, just silly
edit: Mcarthyism was due process.? really
Last edited by: Kenney: Jul 5, 12 17:08
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