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Re: USAT's Ray Rice [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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NordicSkier wrote:
h2ofun wrote:

One of my big flaws is I love to debate. I love to hear others opinions on any topic. This allows me to consider if an opinion I have at the moment may need
to be changed with new data.
.


Except Powercranks, right? ;-)

:o)

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: USAT's Ray Rice [htorres1978] [ In reply to ]
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htorres1978 wrote:
If they allow Jack to stay in office, they are supporting the actions of this individual.

Logical fallacy.
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Re: USAT's Ray Rice [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"Cheating on wives right up there with beating on wives???? That is an insane way of thinking ... Yikes."

to you, and to the fellow who told me to go fuck myself, i think you misunderstand. you assume i'm bringing wife beating down to the rather (i suppose) minor level of cheating on your wife. it's really the other way around. beating your wife is just unconscionable to me. it's just, so is cheating on your wife. to me, to my thinking, i just think it's a way worse act than a lot of other people consider it. but i'm not going to castigate you, or the go fuck yourself guy, for being so cavalier about cheating on your wives.

wait. did i just accuse you of being cavalier about cheating? that wasn't very nice of me, was it? i'll bet that made you mad. i apologize.

probably best if we don't accuse each other of "insane ways of thinking," or tell each other to go fuck ourselves. or for me to assume that you don't take your marriage vows seriously. it's probably better to try to soberly discuss an issue, each assuming that the other is a man (or woman) of goodwill.

Point well taken. I wasn't mad ... I did misunderstand your point. Thanks for the clarification - I'm in agreement with you.

_______________________________________________

You never have the wind with you - either it is against you or you're having a good day. ~Daniel Behrman
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Re: USAT's Ray Rice [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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This is something that our own SCOTUS seems to have forgotten. There's an interesting case going on right now where The Church of Satan (which is really just a bunch of atheists who need to an organizing body in order to have their lack of faith recognized as a "faith" for legal purposes; I realize that's a bit of an oversimplification, but close enough) is using the Hobby Lobby ruling to object - on religious grounds - to the dissemination of "scientific" information of questionable veracity to women seeking abortion. The Satanist hold "scientific accuracy" as a "closely held religious belief," and therefore they opine that certain of the most restrictive anti-abortion laws therefore impinge on their religious liberty. We'll see where that goes in terms of making people go, "Oh... Shit..." on Hobby Lobby. I'm mostly waiting for the backlash from the Christian Right when a Muslim organization tries to use Hobby Lobby to defend a tenet of Islam. Justice Ginsburg wrote about this eloquently in her dissent.

There's a lot of potential unintended consequences here.

FROM A STRICT LEGAL PERSPECTIVE, Jack & I are basically in the same boat: we were both charged with a felony but plead it down to a misdemeanor. My crime? I ripped a parking meter out of the ground in college. I was very drunk. But parking meters cost more than the threshold for a felony vandalism charge, so I was charged with a felony. I said the right stuff about being sorry and it got knocked down to a misdemeanor charge. Of course, if there are those who feel that this should also preclude me from service to USAT, I can respect that. But I believe that - on a strict moral basis if not a legal one - there's a big difference between what I did and what Jack did.

My basic summary of this whole thing is:
- Jack Weiss is a piece of shit who beat his wife.
FULL STOP
- Jack Weiss is someone who has done great service in support of the sport of triathlon in his work for USAT.
FULL STOP
Somehow, we need to balance those things, and I think it's everyone's right to weigh them differently. But I do think both need to be acknowledged when it comes to how we handle this going forward.

I think the best course is for Jack to resign because when something like this happens, it impacts the ability of the board to function effectively. Does Jack still have the trust of the majority of his fellow board members? I don't know. But I think that Jack remaining on the board is probably more of a negative than a positive, and I think that as someone who - by all accounts, including my own limited one - cares about this sport a lot, he ought to step down. USAT ought to thank him for his many, many years of service. And they should ask him to do one last service to the organization and resign.

Any code changes are going to have inevitable unintended consequences, and no changes should be rushed into because of Jack. If anything, changes should be made specifically WITHOUT consideration of Jack, because that's likely to further bias what's written.

A "legal" based change - like, "you cannot be on the board if you've been charged with a felony" - is probably the best option, but even that is fraught with unintended consequences. Per Dan's example that outraged a lot of folks, including me until I thought about it a lot more, adultery is a felony crime in the state of Massachusetts (no convictions since '83, but still. It's a felony on the books). So unless we want to try to make a list of all the "really bad felonies" that would preclude service. Any "simple" solution is going to have way too much flexibility that's going to be way more problematic - long term - than even Jack being on the board until he can be replaced by a simple vote.

And any "morality" based change runs into all the problems that accompany any such opinion-based clause. I don't know that USAT wants to open the pandora's box of "well, I know it when I see it..." (Potter Stewart on pornography). At least in large part because "I know it when I see it" has come to mean, "I know it when I can pay a lawyer enough to convince a bunch of people that they all see what I see." Again, I see that as way worse than Jack digging in and staying on the board for two more years.

If you want some evidence about just how problematic seemingly simple words and phrases can be, listen to this: http://www.radiolab.org/story/60-words/

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: USAT's Ray Rice [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
dhr wrote:
Claiming you can't have an opinion about a person's behavior of you've ever done something sketchy is about the most intellectually bankrupt idea I've ever read here. Congratulations on that.


That's not what he said or meant:

"So your righteous indignation is about par for the course and I am sure you never cheated on a wife or girlfriend, smoked a joint or got behind the wheel when you had a little too much to drink, because if you did you wouldn't be posting stuff like this."

It's about perhaps having some perspective if you have been in the same boat, not about having an opinion.

The mob mentality in this thread is outstanding.




I'm not sure what's worse: my original interpretation or the fact somebody thinks empathy is a factor concerning our representation on our board.

This isn't a call to ruin a life. This is a call to change our representation.

Talk about lack of perspective...
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Re: USAT's Ray Rice [Lacticbath] [ In reply to ]
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thank you for your kind words.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: USAT's Ray Rice [dhr] [ In reply to ]
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Any issues I have with what's transpired on this thread have less to do with what caused the thread in the first place and more to do with the response of Jack in his first couple of comments. Not remorseful, not really self-aware to the point of exhibiting any sort of contriteness and then going so far as to say he owed nobody here any of that. Dan coming in to defend him, knowing the background the two of them have, isn't surprising but was also interesting in its tone---though Dan has, to his credit, modified his statements (or at least helped to define them) in subsequent posts.

Jack made mention of the Biblical "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"...and to that I thought a better adage to apply here would be "Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."

He didn't need to come in and respond, but he did, and that act was laudable. How he responded, however, was anything but.
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Re: USAT's Ray Rice [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan at my HOA we had a board president most could not stand. He was reelected to another term by 14 votes. New board was not happy so gave him no board positions put him in a corner and doing all to ignore him. Could the USAT board do the same?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: USAT's Ray Rice [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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"New board was not happy so gave him no board positions put him in a corner and doing all to ignore him. Could the USAT board do the same?"

i'm talking with multiple board members, jack among them, and this is one likely outcome. how would jack respond to this? jack is a man that, in my experience, places a very high premium on personal honor, sacrifice and service. now, you might roll your eyes at this in consideration of everything you've read in this thread, but, i've known people, and you probably have too, who exhibit a well developed sense of honor and ethics in one area of their lives while falling down in another area. politicians are famous for this. professional athletes are famous for this.

when would jack's sense of honor and service kick in, if it becomes obvious he's a drag on the federation instead of a help to the federation? even if he views his potential for service and work output as high? we might find this out. jack is one of those guys, you put a blindfold on him and turn him around in circles 6 or 8 times, you take the blindfold off, he's going to stumble around like a drunken buffalo for awhile until he gets his bearings, we're all tapping our fingers waiting for that to happen, but once he gets his eyes pointed true north he knows what's right and doggedly pursues it. he's in his drunken buffalo phase right now. i cannot predict with any confidence what the outcome will be.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: USAT's Ray Rice [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Fair enough. Our board member has such an ego he does not care what others think. Shall be interesting to see what the more ugly stuff you mentioned will be.

I do wish Jack the best.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: USAT's Ray Rice [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Hopefully he figures out what's best for himself quickly and doesn't break his wife's arm again in another assault in the meantime.

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Re: USAT's Ray Rice [stringcheese] [ In reply to ]
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stringcheese wrote:
If you were going for the "There's no excuse..i fucked up big time and I'm truly sorry for what I did" angle with your response, you missed big time.

Gosh no kidding!

I don't claim to know what the right steps are when domestic violence happens with public visibility, but it's best handled when the person who committed the assault is as apologetic and humble as possible.

I do think it's interesting that some issues like drunk driving, and cheating on your wife don't carry much outrage these days.
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Re: USAT's Ray Rice [travis_lt] [ In reply to ]
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When you post things like the above without knowing the facts it is dangerous. What you stated about a broken arm is not fact but yet you pass it off as though it is. You clearly don't know the facts and when you take to ST and Twitter spouting misinformation you do everyone a disservice. Either arm yourself with the truth and then you shouldn't need to embellish or find another horse to beat to death.
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Re: USAT's Ray Rice [OakCliffTri] [ In reply to ]
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You've made it obvious in your couple of posts on here that you have no interest in the truth related to Jack other than to attempt to marginalize what he did. You'd be well served to be careful in your discussion of the actual facts.

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Re: USAT's Ray Rice [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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"I ripped a parking meter out of the ground in college. I was very drunk."


were you driving drunk too? If so that's a whole other issue.

Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.
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Re: USAT's Ray Rice [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I'm calling BS!! I've seen you and your "guns" in person. No f'ing way you ripped a parking meter out of the ground. I might believe you picked a quarter off the curb, but not much more.
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Re: USAT's Ray Rice [prattzc] [ In reply to ]
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prattzc wrote:
I'm calling BS!! I've seen you and your "guns" in person. No f'ing way you ripped a parking meter out of the ground. I might believe you picked a quarter off the curb, but not much more.

at that time he was a rower, rowers have guns (arm muscles, please lets not have a 2nd amendment fight here).

Now a pro triathlete, guns go bye bye.

I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________
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Re: USAT's Ray Rice [pattersonpaul] [ In reply to ]
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pattersonpaul wrote:
"I ripped a parking meter out of the ground in college. I was very drunk."


were you driving drunk too? If so that's a whole other issue.

I was walking across the street. I bumped into it. Got very angry that it was in my way. And removed it from the ground. My GUESS is that someone else had hit it with a car earlier...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: USAT's Ray Rice [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Besides the possibility of creating a political rift between Jack, and his colleagues on the Board of Directors can we expect to see a demonstrable affect on his ability to perform his duties? In realistic terms, how has Jack's performance as a board member trended as a result of his personal/legal dealings? What are the costs of asking Jack to step down (i.e. who will sit as interim until the position is filled by an elected person) versus the benefits (i.e. we feel better that our representatives are free of iniquity)?
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Re: USAT's Ray Rice [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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jack is a man that, in my experience, places a very high premium on personal honor, sacrifice and service.

his refusal to leaves sounds more like ego to me...
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Re: USAT's Ray Rice [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
pattersonpaul wrote:
"I ripped a parking meter out of the ground in college. I was very drunk."


were you driving drunk too? If so that's a whole other issue.


I was walking across the street. I bumped into it. Got very angry that it was in my way. And removed it from the ground. My GUESS is that someone else had hit it with a car earlier...

You sure you didn't just cut the heads off the meters, a la Cool Hand Luke?

--------------------------
The secret of a long life is you try not to shorten it.
-Nobody
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Re: USAT's Ray Rice [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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it's going to get uglier before it gets less ugly.

I hope we arent talking about a Harper Valley PTA type situation.....
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Re: USAT's Ray Rice [Steve-oH!] [ In reply to ]
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Steve-oH! wrote:
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it's going to get uglier before it gets less ugly.


I hope we arent talking about a Harper Valley PTA type situation.....

I DO NOT want to see Jack wearing a mini skirt.

Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.
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Re: USAT's Ray Rice [soulfresca] [ In reply to ]
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good questions. here goes:

"In realistic terms, how has Jack's performance as a board member trended as a result of his personal/legal dealings?"

in my opinion jack hasn't skipped a beat. jack is still jack. no diminishing in his abilities as a board member. but that's not the only consideration. it's not just jack. it's the rest of the board and how effective jack can be if the rest of the board treats him as a guy filling the space of an otherwise empty chair? and, will USAT suffer at the hands of the USOC, in the form of diminishing dollars toward high performance? will sponsors start to shy from the federation? all of these are jack's calculations to consider.

"What are the costs of asking Jack to step down (i.e. who will sit as interim until the position is filled by an elected person) versus the benefits (i.e. we feel better that our representatives are free of iniquity)?"

the cost of asking jack to step down is the cost of losing probably the hardest working board member over the last 15 years. however, jack has already given up his spot as treasurer. if he's frozen out of board duties then that cost is already paid - you effectively lose jack even if you don't technically lose him. his board seat would be appointed by the rest of the board, from someone in his region.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: USAT's Ray Rice [Steve-oH!] [ In reply to ]
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Steve-oH! wrote:
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it's going to get uglier before it gets less ugly.


I hope we arent talking about a Harper Valley PTA type situation.....

Me thinks the legal profession will be involved..$$$$.
Think ugly divorce..

"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz
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