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Re: USADA Suspends Marathoner [Robert] [ In reply to ]
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Robert wrote:
Yes, the rules are crap but the crappy rules are overruled by the crappy indifference of thousands, or worse, the large number of people who would give a non-responsive publicly funded agency unfettered control over their sporting lives. If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. USADA and WADA are way out of control, but no one cares. Congress certainly does less oversight than my local police over traffic (which is almost non-existent).

Good luck finding a way to influence USADA. I wrote to my Senator and he wrote back to say he felt we needed an organization like USADA, without addressing any of my concerns. The Senator's dead now, but the USADA lives on.

We should not be spending taxpayers' money to ensure the bourgeois ideal of clean competition for amateur athletes, except possibly Olympic athletes. Do you think the rich are cheating? Do you think people in the ghetto are cheating? And most of the bourgeois are cheating as well. We have a well-developed system of cheating in this country. If you want to stop cheating, then each individual must address his own failings first, but to spend government money to ensure that some triathlete gets his Kona slot is absurd. On this issue I am libertarian, but believe we should be using that money for something much more meaningful, even if it means a few thousand undocumented immigrants get vaccinated, for instance. We really have our priorities screwed up.... DHEA has no ergogenic value. NONE. De natha. There is no justification for it being on the list, and the history of asthma meds, including a USA swimmer losing gold because of a rule that has since been finally changed by an out of control Puritanical drug agency is mind numbing.

I cannot believe people in a supposedly free country actually support such nonsense.

-Robert

I'll give you a "hell yeah!!!!!"
well said. I smiled when you said the Senator died. thanks
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Re: USADA Suspends Marathoner [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Do you really care what an individual does, in a race that you are in, whom you beat by 30 minutes, 60 minutes, 90 minutes? Really!?! And you use "the mirror" ? God, you are a troll.


"one eye doubles my eyesight, so things don't look half bad" John Hiatt
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Re: USADA Suspends Marathoner [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Drdan wrote:
i wonder why she was being tested at all


Well she is kind of a baller. Top 10 overall female at 2014 Pikes Peak. And regularly top 5 female at all the ultras she does. Despite playing the "just a middle-aged menopausal mom" card pretty hard.

Also playing the "it's all so confusing, I'm not elite " card.

There's nothing confusing about this statement on the Pikes Peak registration page:

"As a participant in the Pikes Peak Ascent and/or Marathon you are subject to drug testing pursuant to USADA standards and procedures, and you acknowledge this notification and your willingness to be so tested."

Was she up for any monetary compensation?

If not, then this is complete B.S. If so, then I guess they have to throw the rule book at her.

It should be ok for someone 50+ to be taking DHEA, that is not the same as taking EPO or blood transfusions. There are some actual health benefits to someone 50+. If she's competing for the sake of keeping motivated, then who cares?
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Re: USADA Suspends Marathoner [mcmetal] [ In reply to ]
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mcmetal wrote:
trail wrote:
Drdan wrote:
i wonder why she was being tested at all


Well she is kind of a baller. Top 10 overall female at 2014 Pikes Peak. And regularly top 5 female at all the ultras she does. Despite playing the "just a middle-aged menopausal mom" card pretty hard.

Also playing the "it's all so confusing, I'm not elite " card.

There's nothing confusing about this statement on the Pikes Peak registration page:

"As a participant in the Pikes Peak Ascent and/or Marathon you are subject to drug testing pursuant to USADA standards and procedures, and you acknowledge this notification and your willingness to be so tested."


Was she up for any monetary compensation?

If not, then this is complete B.S. If so, then I guess they have to throw the rule book at her.

It should be ok for someone 50+ to be taking DHEA, that is not the same as taking EPO or blood transfusions. There are some actual health benefits to someone 50+. If she's competing for the sake of keeping motivated, then who cares?


Here is the problem...she is 51 and finished 7th. What is stopping a 25 year old to use the same drugs as she used to better her training and finish in 6th rather than 15th...and then what stops the 27 year old who was in 8th from using said drugs to now take the win. I am not saying this will happen, but you can't draw the line that easily. It might be essential for someone in their 50's for better quality of life, but it creates a slippery slope when it comes to racing....so the options are, "no drugs and ya get to race" or take whatever drugs you want for your health, but no racing. As a 50 year old, when you choose to race, you do it under the same set of rules as the 20 year old. Sadly that might mean making a choice to sacrifice optimal health and quality of life available through banned pills, injections or cremes, and if your body is not what it once was, those are the cards that you have to deal with when it comes to racing.
Last edited by: devashish_paul: Dec 31, 14 15:17
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Re: USADA Suspends Marathoner [mcmetal] [ In reply to ]
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mcmetal wrote:
It should be ok for someone 50+ to be taking DHEA, that is not the same as taking EPO or blood transfusions. There are some actual health benefits to someone 50+. If she's competing for the sake of keeping motivated, then who cares?

"DHEA supplements are used by some people who believe they can improve sex drive, build muscle, fight the effects of aging, and improve some health conditions. But there isn't much evidence for many of these claims"


"DHEA supplements are sometimes used by athletes because of a claim that it can improve muscle strength and enhance athletic performance. That's because DHEA is a "prohormone" -- a substance that can increase the level of steroid hormones such as testosterone. There is little evidence to show that DHEA has any effect on enhancing muscle strength. Its use is banned by sports organizations such as the National Football League, Major League Baseball, and the National Collegiate Athletic Association."


http://www.webmd.com/diet/dhea-supplements

Rules are rules. If you think you need DHEA (or testosterone, EPO, etc.) to live a full and rewarding life, you can still swim/bike/run, just not at a sanctioned race.

"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.
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Re: USADA Suspends Marathoner [mcmetal] [ In reply to ]
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mcmetal wrote:

If not, then this is complete B.S. If so, then I guess they have to throw the rule book at her.

3 places out of the money.

But I'm not sure prize money is a good way to determine who should be tested. There's no prize money at the Olympics or many national championships.





Quote:
It should be ok for someone 50+ to be taking DHEA, that is not the same as taking EPO or blood transfusions.

That could be argued. It does seem excessive, and probably expensive, to test the full WADA list when really only maybe half a dozen things are what we really care about. But this doesn't excuse the runner from taking them when they *are* on the list.
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Re: USADA Suspends Marathoner [mcmetal] [ In reply to ]
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mcmetal wrote:
trail wrote:
Drdan wrote:
i wonder why she was being tested at all


Well she is kind of a baller. Top 10 overall female at 2014 Pikes Peak. And regularly top 5 female at all the ultras she does. Despite playing the "just a middle-aged menopausal mom" card pretty hard.

Also playing the "it's all so confusing, I'm not elite " card.

There's nothing confusing about this statement on the Pikes Peak registration page:

"As a participant in the Pikes Peak Ascent and/or Marathon you are subject to drug testing pursuant to USADA standards and procedures, and you acknowledge this notification and your willingness to be so tested."


Was she up for any monetary compensation?

If not, then this is complete B.S. If so, then I guess they have to throw the rule book at her.

It should be ok for someone 50+ to be taking DHEA, that is not the same as taking EPO or blood transfusions. There are some actual health benefits to someone 50+. If she's competing for the sake of keeping motivated, then who cares?

Why is it so hard to follow the rules?

Pro dopers can create their own events instead of complaining about testing in events that are sanctioned.
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Re: USADA Suspends Marathoner [Robert] [ In reply to ]
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Robert wrote:
Yes, the rules are crap but the crappy rules are overruled by the crappy indifference of thousands, or worse, the large number of people who would give a non-responsive publicly funded agency unfettered control over their sporting lives. If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. USADA and WADA are way out of control, but no one cares. Congress certainly does less oversight than my local police over traffic (which is almost non-existent).


Good luck finding a way to influence USADA. I wrote to my Senator and he wrote back to say he felt we needed an organization like USADA, without addressing any of my concerns. The Senator's dead now, but the USADA lives on.

We should not be spending taxpayers' money to ensure the bourgeois ideal of clean competition for amateur athletes, except possibly Olympic athletes. Do you think the rich are cheating? Do you think people in the ghetto are cheating? And most of the bourgeois are cheating as well. We have a well-developed system of cheating in this country. If you want to stop cheating, then each individual must address his own failings first, but to spend government money to ensure that some triathlete gets his Kona slot is absurd. On this issue I am libertarian, but believe we should be using that money for something much more meaningful, even if it means a few thousand undocumented immigrants get vaccinated, for instance. We really have our priorities screwed up.... DHEA has no ergogenic value. NONE. De natha. There is no justification for it being on the list, and the history of asthma meds, including a USA swimmer losing gold because of a rule that has since been finally changed by an out of control Puritanical drug agency is mind numbing.

I cannot believe people in a supposedly free country actually support such nonsense.

-Robert


Bam, I am libertarian also and it is shit like this that blows my mind......can't find money to fix a bridge over the Mississippi but HELL ya we can find some to bust that old lady runner!! I'm a great AMERICAN!
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Re: USADA Suspends Marathoner [Beachboy] [ In reply to ]
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Beachboy wrote:
Robert wrote:
Yes, the rules are crap but the crappy rules are overruled by the crappy indifference of thousands, or worse, the large number of people who would give a non-responsive publicly funded agency unfettered control over their sporting lives. If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. USADA and WADA are way out of control, but no one cares. Congress certainly does less oversight than my local police over traffic (which is almost non-existent).


Good luck finding a way to influence USADA. I wrote to my Senator and he wrote back to say he felt we needed an organization like USADA, without addressing any of my concerns. The Senator's dead now, but the USADA lives on.

We should not be spending taxpayers' money to ensure the bourgeois ideal of clean competition for amateur athletes, except possibly Olympic athletes. Do you think the rich are cheating? Do you think people in the ghetto are cheating? And most of the bourgeois are cheating as well. We have a well-developed system of cheating in this country. If you want to stop cheating, then each individual must address his own failings first, but to spend government money to ensure that some triathlete gets his Kona slot is absurd. On this issue I am libertarian, but believe we should be using that money for something much more meaningful, even if it means a few thousand undocumented immigrants get vaccinated, for instance. We really have our priorities screwed up.... DHEA has no ergogenic value. NONE. De natha. There is no justification for it being on the list, and the history of asthma meds, including a USA swimmer losing gold because of a rule that has since been finally changed by an out of control Puritanical drug agency is mind numbing.

I cannot believe people in a supposedly free country actually support such nonsense.

-Robert


Bam, I am libertarian also and it is shit like this that blows my mind......can't find money to fix a bridge over the Mississippi but HELL ya we can find some to bust that old lady runner!! I'm a great AMERICAN!

You understand that the race, not USADA, paid for the testing, right?
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Re: USADA Suspends Marathoner [craigj532] [ In reply to ]
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but doesn't the race kick up to USA_____ which kicks up to USADA which kicks up to WADA .......

and USADA does get some gub'mnt money, doesn't it?
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Re: USADA Suspends Marathoner [craigj532] [ In reply to ]
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Do you really think that all the costs (100%) are coverd by the race promoter? If they are then why do we need the usada?
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Re: USADA Suspends Marathoner [craigj532] [ In reply to ]
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craigj532 wrote:
Beachboy wrote:
Robert wrote:
Yes, the rules are crap but the crappy rules are overruled by the crappy indifference of thousands, or worse, the large number of people who would give a non-responsive publicly funded agency unfettered control over their sporting lives. If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. USADA and WADA are way out of control, but no one cares. Congress certainly does less oversight than my local police over traffic (which is almost non-existent).


Good luck finding a way to influence USADA. I wrote to my Senator and he wrote back to say he felt we needed an organization like USADA, without addressing any of my concerns. The Senator's dead now, but the USADA lives on.

We should not be spending taxpayers' money to ensure the bourgeois ideal of clean competition for amateur athletes, except possibly Olympic athletes. Do you think the rich are cheating? Do you think people in the ghetto are cheating? And most of the bourgeois are cheating as well. We have a well-developed system of cheating in this country. If you want to stop cheating, then each individual must address his own failings first, but to spend government money to ensure that some triathlete gets his Kona slot is absurd. On this issue I am libertarian, but believe we should be using that money for something much more meaningful, even if it means a few thousand undocumented immigrants get vaccinated, for instance. We really have our priorities screwed up.... DHEA has no ergogenic value. NONE. De natha. There is no justification for it being on the list, and the history of asthma meds, including a USA swimmer losing gold because of a rule that has since been finally changed by an out of control Puritanical drug agency is mind numbing.

I cannot believe people in a supposedly free country actually support such nonsense.

-Robert


Bam, I am libertarian also and it is shit like this that blows my mind......can't find money to fix a bridge over the Mississippi but HELL ya we can find some to bust that old lady runner!! I'm a great AMERICAN!


You understand that the race, not USADA, paid for the testing, right?

And the race director already invited her back. No one gives a shit except the some 10 idiots on ST. Enjoy your pity party.

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Re: USADA Suspends Marathoner [travis_lt] [ In reply to ]
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There are all kinds of rules and not just for PED. Technology rules, drafting rules, etc. If there weren't rules, then the race and sports in general could evolve into a "Mad Max" version of racing where anything goes to win. The "rules" might not be that out of whack as other sports and players in those sports want rules too. Even cheaters want rules so they can selectively violate rules that they think they can get away while appearing innocent. Even cheaters don't want racing to get "out of hand".

There is something about the mentality of cheaters and those that uphold their right to cheat that is incredulous to me. If we made races available to cheaters would they stay in those races or would they still feel the need to go to rule following races to have the bragging rights and satisfaction of beating those people too?

As an older AGer, who finds that people above 40 have discovered PEDs to beat me, racing is disappointing. Guess I'll just time trial alone and get personal satisfaction from the times I achieve while training and avoid the time and cost of a race and Kevin Moats gloating over me as one of the ten or more in his age group that he beats. The only thing I would be missing is the good company of some other AGers; yet, maybe I could invite them up to my course for training/time trialing purposes.

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.
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Re: USADA Suspends Marathoner [IT] [ In reply to ]
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Boy do I agree it makes me sick to see Moats name in the USAT rankings!

I also agree that the number of older folks that are taking something is sickening. Luckily I know a number of top older racers that I believe are racing clean.
But I also know a number that it just does not seem possible they can have the body they have at their age without some extra help. Again, Moats is
a great example of this.

But at the end of the day, who cares. They have to live with themselves. I just try to beat them with hard work and luck.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: USADA Suspends Marathoner [Jim Martin] [ In reply to ]
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Question: Would the fact that she took DHEA mask the possibility that she was also taking testosterone and/or other steroids? One of the links said that her physician was treating her for low DHEA, low testosterone, and low estrogen. I had never heard of DHEA before a few days ago, but google tells me that is it primarily used as a masking agent for testosterone.

As a slight aside- I think this guy is hysterical.

http://www.bing.com/...BAA66C827CD734746A4A
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Re: USADA Suspends Marathoner [Running mom] [ In reply to ]
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DHEA is an androgen.
DHEA is 2 enzymatic steps away from testosterone.
DHEA is metabolized to androstenedione or androstenediol, then to testosterone.

The debate here should be, is hormone replacement therapy, which has recently increased dramatically in popularity, acceptable for male or female athletes?
I do not see why it is really debatable why DHEA might be considered to be at least potentially beneficial, by anyone with a basic knowledge of steroidogenesis.
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Re: USADA Suspends Marathoner [IMPBAZ] [ In reply to ]
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IMPBAZ wrote:
DHEA is an androgen.
DHEA is 2 enzymatic steps away from testosterone.
DHEA is metabolized to androstenedione or androstenediol, then to testosterone.

The debate here should be, is hormone replacement therapy, which has recently increased dramatically in popularity, acceptable for male or female athletes?
I do not see why it is really debatable why DHEA might be considered to be at least potentially beneficial, by anyone with a basic knowledge of steroidogenesis.

Why should it be acceptable for any athletes (I don't care what age). the entire point of age group competition is to see who slows down less than the other peers in the age group. The guy or gal whose body slows down less compared to peer as a result of good and smart training, natural recovery and good genetics is the one who should be winning. This might be a different picture for the same 2 athletes who competed with each other at 25 when then are 50. The guy or girl who was faster may not be faster now, because of genetics and also because of bad lifestyle choices over the ensuing decades.....the person who made the right choices should have the advantage and not end up losing to someone who gets "enhanced" chemically.
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Re: USADA Suspends Marathoner [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I just do not get these folks that think they should be 25 in a 50 year old body. Great, do what you want, just do not race. Clearly, these folks have other issues to deal with.

And folks like Moats, should be a lifetime ban, period. This, but the doc says I needed excuse, is a joke. He was not a pro. He was not putting food on his table. He just had
an ego to stroke. Now Lance, I consider different, but, ...



.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: USADA Suspends Marathoner [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Now we get into a discussion of having CAT system vs AG silliness
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Re: USADA Suspends Marathoner [Beachboy] [ In reply to ]
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Beachboy wrote:
Do you really think that all the costs (100%) are coverd by the race promoter? If they are then why do we need the usada?

For cost, I can't know for sure, but I believe so based on what I've read about USADA. They generally don't work for free. They work on contract with the governing bodies of various sports.

For your second question, it depends on who you mean by "we." USOC has decided that USADA is the testing authority for all the U.S. Olympic/PanAm/Paralympic sports. So if you're athlete holding a license in one of those sports, USADA is responsible for testing you.

Leagues or sport not under the USOC umbrella can contract with other testing labs. E.g. professional boxing uses USADA, I believe, but doesn't have to. Some amateur cycling districts use USADA, but don't have to. The race director in question here could have used someone else. He apparently chose USADA.
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Re: USADA Suspends Marathoner [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]
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What if a race only has a handful of "participants" in an older age group?

Formerly DrD
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Re: USADA Suspends Marathoner [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
I just do not get these folks that think they should be 25 in a 50 year old body. Great, do what you want, just do not race. Clearly, these folks have other issues to deal with.

And folks like Moats, should be a lifetime ban, period. This, but the doc says I needed excuse, is a joke. He was not a pro. He was not putting food on his table. He just had
an ego to stroke. Now Lance, I consider different, but, ...

.

The sad reality is that more and more folks will be getting "hormone optimization" therapy in the coming years. Many of these folks won't think of it as doping (esp. since their doctor recommended it) and will have no idea that this could be an issue at their local tri or marathon.

Why not just have a category for such people? They can race, but can't win any awards of KQ/BQ/etc. They get a "NC" on their race number and calf, so others know they are not in the competitive mix.

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
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Re: USADA Suspends Marathoner [Titanflexr] [ In reply to ]
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I've proposed this numerous times in numerous doping related threads. The hardcore guys insist on calling it the "doping" division rather than an elite division vs recreational division.

They would rather those participants just stay home. They'll be the same ones bitching when there are less and less races available due to low attendance.

Formerly DrD
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Re: USADA Suspends Marathoner [Broken Leg Guy] [ In reply to ]
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Broken Leg Guy wrote:

They would rather those participants just stay home. They'll be the same ones bitching when there are less and less races available due to low attendance.

So you're saying that entire races will be cancelled because the vast majority of athletes would prefer to take banned substances rather than race? And if that happens, it's the fault of those who choose not to take banned substances?

I don't think your assessment is realistic, though, because it assumes that the the vast majority of people who prioritize drugs also prioritize honesty, and would adhere strictly to the rules....so far the evidence doesn't bear that out....
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Re: USADA Suspends Marathoner [Broken Leg Guy] [ In reply to ]
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Broken Leg Guy wrote:
I've proposed this numerous times in numerous doping related threads. The hardcore guys insist on calling it the "doping" division rather than an elite division vs recreational division.

They would rather those participants just stay home. They'll be the same ones bitching when there are less and less races available due to low attendance.

Lots of these people aren't trying to enhance their performance (some have been encouraged by their doctor to take T, some may take Sudafed the night before a race because they feel sick, some may be on corticosteriods due to an injury); as you point out, they just want to do the event. I really do differentiate them from Moats, etc. who are trying cheat their way to victory.

I'd also do it as a non-competitive category.....just to avoid a "free for all" category.

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
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