And that is difficult? Checking with the local organization and local federation? Really?


That is easy just like with just about everything related to rules and laws if there is no official rule making something more strict or making amendments then you go by the one above it, you know sort of like state/federal laws... (if you are in the US)


But I thought it was hard to find that was your entire point right?

It wasn't hard to find, it wasn't even complicated in this scenario you made up. Wada says X and check your local rules.. your local rules say wada is it. done.

Easier than figuring out if you need to put money in a parking meter which at times can be more complicated than this.

That is inappropriate and I, for one, will not be helping you any further.

---

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com

I wonder how WTC defines their testing, they are pulling people out of line at check 2-3 days out sometimes. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, perhaps they define it as OOC testing.

Maurice

Hard enough that you quoted the WADA book as the rule in this case and it was not, despite the fact that in the original question I specifically noted it was a WTC event.

---

Ironman Certified Coach

Currently accepting limited number of new athletes

I surely hope that they would consider that OOC, based on their own rules. I for one have been sick during race week where I knew that there would be testing and I was worried.

According to one poster, I am an idiot and it is all too easy.

Consider this scenario however: an athlete who is on no prescriptions 99% of the time, he takes no supplements; as a result, he gives two shits about the WADA rules because he knows he is clean. 2 days before the race, he is ill, a Doc wants to prescribe predizone. You pull up the WADA book for the first time in your life and it says that pred is safe OOC but not in competition. You flip to the back of WADA and start reading about what in competition actually means. The definition basically says it means whatever the hell they want it to mean and you should look elsewhere.

You go look elsewhere (USAT, WTC,) you find a definition and it says 12 hours is in fact the rule. You sweat this because you know that they are pulling people out of line at check in which is long before the 12 hour cutoff, so will they be checking for OOC stuff or in-competition stuff. You call the Doc and tell him, pred is OK as long as it is not 12 hours before the cannon. Now doc says . . . hmmmm, well you can take it now and it SHOULD be out of your system mostly 12 hours before the gun, but everyone metabolizes everything differently.

Wait, what? What the hell does that mean, can I take this now or not?

---

Ironman Certified Coach

Currently accepting limited number of new athletes

So WTC doesn't follow WADA is what you are saying?

Really because this is the very first line of your link:

"In 2005, the World Triathlon Corporation ("WTC") accepted the World Anti-Doping Code (the "Code") for all Ironman Triathlon Events, whether conducted by WTC or its Licensees"

So yes it was in fact the rule, you even yourself said they copied the "code" word for word...


All you actually have done is prove it is quite simple.

No actually it is clearly states as 12 hours from the start of the competition until the end.


No again that is right in the WADA rule which WTC (since that is you are are fixated on says they follow.


If you fail a test 48 hours before the start of the event for something that is only banned in competition you are 100% without a doubt certain that you will not be rested at a closer time period to in the competition? Even then despite differences in metabolizing things there are half lifes to these drugs and they can easily tell within reason how long ago you took it and if it will have cleared your system by the time the competition actually starts.

You are acting like this is all a mystery and the people testing haven't taken chemistry beyond making a volcano in the 3rd grade.

yeah, if i'm on dexa, i'm in no shape to walk to the bathroom let alone race. i've never inhaled prednisone but take tablets of it and in the hospital get either IM/IV hydrocortisone or dexa.

i can't figure out what i am doing wrong with that link you give me. this is what i get

"
TERMS AND CONDITIONS

Global DRO does not contain information on, or that applies to, any dietary supplement which also includes homeopathic products, traditional medicines, herbals, and probiotics.
Do not use Global DRO to search for the individual ingredients in a dietary supplement. The dietary supplement may contain prohibited substances even if your search results say the ingredients on the label are not prohibited. The use of any dietary supplement is at your own risk.
If you can’t find your medication on Global DRO, contact us to find out if it is prohibited in sport.
The User is responsible for:

• Correctly selecting the appropriate medication from the list of search results.
• Ensuring all active ingredients of the brand they are searching are listed on the Brand Search Results (Status) page.
• Reading the “overall” status of an ingredient or brand search
• Checking the prohibited status of the substance or method against the relevant routes of administration by which the medication will be used.
• Conducting new searches for each sport they participate in to view sport specific results.
• Conducting new searches whenever the Prohibited List changes.

Global DRO:

• Provides the prohibited status of only brands and ingredients contained in the database according to the current World Anti-Doping Agency’s Prohibited List.
• Only provides information for products available in the Canada, Japan, UK, and USA.

Global DRO does not:

• Provide the prohibited status of ingredients in or brands of, dietary supplements or other natural health products.
• Provide any form of medical advice or recommend treatment plans.
• Endorse any substance listed in the database.
• Make claims about the status of substances not found in the database.

Global DRO is not liable for any:

• Errors, omissions, or inaccuracies in the database.
• Time delays between the change in status of a given substance or method and the corresponding database update.
• Time delays between the availability of new ingredients, brands and/or brand formulations and their inclusion into the database.
• Incorrect entries by the user in any of the search fields.
• Failure to strictly follow these terms and conditions or other instructions on the website.
• Failure to observe the limitations of this resource.

All materials, content and forms contained on this website are the intellectual property of the partners and, other than for your personal use or internal business use, may not be copied, reproduced, distributed or displayed, without their express written permission. For the avoidance of doubt, you may not copy, reproduce, distribute or display for any commercial purpose, or re-sell, such materials, contents and forms, whether on their own or in combination with any other materials or product.
I have read and understand the full Terms and Conditions.
"

and i check the box, click the search and the same page loads all over again, and again, and again. I don't have that problem on the WADA website though...

---

http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

yes. over and over and over. i get nothing but the TOC over and over. It isn't that I "won't do the work" (geez, thanks) but i am getting absolutely nothing but the TOC.

---

http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

If you are ill 2 days before a race, then you need to consider whether racing at all is wise.

As a corticosteroid, you should not be stopping use suddenly (your doctor should be telling you this), dosage should be tapered down before ceasing use. Hence it is inappropriate to consider simply stopping use of such a drug immediately simply to avoid a "in-competition" dope test window, however that may be defined.

Since the drug is prohibited in competition, then either:
- don't use it at all (which depending on why it's being prescribed may or may not be sensible),
- talk to your doctor about alternatives for treating your condition that are not prohibited, or
- don't race, which may well be the most sensible option if you are ill and there are no viable alternatives for your health and well being, and especially since such drugs make you more susceptible to picking up other infections.

To Kathy, Frenchfried and a few others...general reply to some of the discussion.

Right now we have no recreational/citizen event in running, swimming, cycling or triathlon competition. We just have sporting events to which the WADA umbrella applies. It apples equally to a 19 year old teen breaking into the pro ranks, a 29 year old wannabee pro, a 41 year old Pro like Craig Alexander at the tail end of his career, a 48 year old pro like Natasha Badmann also at the tail end of her career, Ken Glah racing 50-54, Scott Molina racing 55-59, Kevin Moats racing 55-59, Lance wanting to race pro of 40-44 or even doing his local masters swim meet. It applies to you and me and it applies to our kids when we enter the same races. There is no WADA threshold for 29 year olds and WADA thresholds for 50+ year olds. It's all the same, because Natasha at 48 can win races overall and compete with 23 year olds. Same race, same doping rules. They apply to Kristi at Pikes Peak, just like it applies to the 20 something year old girls she is racing around.

That's kind of a problem as some point out because there is no rec division where you can be totally doped from a WADA perspective, but on health related treatment from your doctor. There is a pile of stuff your doc can give you that is totally legal from a WADA angle and other stuff that is totally illegal....if you take the illegal stuff and get drug tested, you doped, that's just how the rule is written.

While the solution would be a rec division where anything goes, in the mean time, when we enter races, we have to abide by the same drug tolerance thresholds that Craig Alexander or Natasha have to live under. And I think that is fair.

If you want to go on HRT which is totally fine, and if some of the stuff happens to be WADA illegal, you just can't race. BUT no one is stopping you or anyone from keeping up the triathlon lifestyle, swimming, biking, running with friends and having your own informal races....you just can't go in a race that is under the WADA code...which is why Lance can't go to an Mdot race, he can't run at Pikes Peak and he can't even enter his local masters swim meet. He can train all he wants with his buddies.

Just because a lot of people are on different types of anti aging therapies, does not mean we should make them legal for racing. And I understand that the picture is really different for women in their 50's, so that presents a dilemma. I am not sure which women's HRT drugs help older women without having a positive impact on younger women. I'll leave that to the docs/chemists at WADA/USADA etc to figure out. But until they figure it out and legalize some, you are stuck with the code we have given there is no rec division in our sport.

----

Responding to Frenchfried/JYT, on my side, I am starting in 50-54....I've done most things in my power to slow aging effects....haven't touched alcohol in 15 years and no hard liquor in 23 years, eat very well, never order deep fried sat/fat laden foods, rarely swing more than 5 lbs over acceptable race weight since college, work on getting 56 hours of sleep consistently, trained ~800 hours per year for 2 decades, been lifting weights 3-5x per week since I was 16 years old 50 weeks per year etc etc etc....all to set up access to keeping up the lifestyle as long as possible and still compete inside the rules. Others have not made the same sacrifices, and they want to go to their anti aging doc, get access to anti aging without doing the long term work. So yes, my bike wattages are close to identical to the past, and swim is very close (neck issues aside). The run is affected adversely from a bad crash a few year ago...but put me or other guys like me (who have done a ton of work to slow anti aging) on T and now I can do more training, my swim and bike will get faster and my run will be less affected at T2. I understand there is a lot of things we cannot control, but there are many things that all of us can control that most don't take advantage of. I'm in the "don't leave any health related stone un-turned" camp....if it makes my body and brain softer, slower, weaker, dumber, less coordinated, I'm generally not interested other than the odd treat". There are all kinds of choices in life that people choose to not take and vault to the shortcut/course cutting route. If/when I reach a point that I can't sustain quality of life without WADA banned substances, then I can go on them and just gracefully bow out of racing.

-------------

I do think if there are women's medications necessary for quality of life for older women, but which don't affect race performance of any age group nor used as masking agents, then someone has to work on WADA to get them "unbanned". Surely there are some women's leaders that you could potentially lean on such as Karen Smyers, Michellie Jones, PNF and a few others who have a vested interest in expanding sport legally for women in their peer group/a few years older than their peer group.

Actually there are some HRT that do include banned ingredients.

And in response to Dev - NO, you cannot always get a TUE for those (if you have an ethical doctor). Back when I was planning to go to track masters worlds, my found out what I was taking post-surgery was on the banned list and asked my doc if she could fill out a TUE. She read all the paperwork and said she could not in good conscious, but instead switched me to something else (which ended up not working as well).

---

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Moats is in the 60-64 AG now.

.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

So, Dave, safe to assume you were able to get a TUE for this so close to your departure? Not sure what type of injection you had, but it seems like you wouldn't want to take the chance of still having some in your system on race day.

Nope. If they had tested me and it was illegal, so be it, I would have been a doper!! Never crossed my mind, and being in the back of the results, I would not have triggered a top 10.

So, what is your point?

.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

and you checked on the box before clicking search I hope, otherwise you will just keep returning to same page

What's my point? From your post above, it appears you're only a doper if you get caught. I guess I'll use another of your quotes:


There's a lot of talk about zero tolerance, rules are rules, you should know what you're putting in your body, etc, when in fact my guess would be that some (many?) have done the very thing they are harping about -- and that's just kind of something that bugs me. Glass houses and all...

And that is my final word in this discussion.

Yep, you are totally right, I am a total doper.

The difference is I would not be here crying oh me. I would be a man and say, here is what happened, and if it were illegal, so be it. That is the bottom line of this thread.
And I have no idea if what they gave me was illegal, and could care less. This is all just for fun.

.

.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Just a reminder that a positive doping control test is not necessary for a doping penalty to be issued. An admission is sufficient. As are some other forms of evidence.

I'm not saying anyone is a doper and I'm not expressing an opinion on the rightness or wrongness of your pre-Worlds cortisone injection. I'm saying that you are coming down pretty damn hard on Kathy, and others, for doing something it would appear you have done, in apparently the same inadvertent manner. In my opinion (idiosyncratic as it may be), the appropriate response, in that case, is something more along the lines of, "yes, it's a mistake I've made and here's how you avoid it," rather than getting all huffy, holier-than-thou, and "hang them all" about it.

For your future info, cortisone injections are allowed out of competition but can trigger an in-competition positive if the steroid is still in your system. The allowable level is, I believe, 30 ng/dl (nanograms per decilitre). I have no idea how long it takes a cortisone injection to reduce to that level. Currently in cycling, you must take an eight day break from competition after a cortisone injection. I gathered that information by searching the internet.

And, yes, I said I was done with this conversation and I replied anyway. I am clearly a hypocrite on that matter, but now I'm done (probably).

This is gold. What do the kids say these days? QFP? Quoted for posterity or something like that? Yeah, QFP.

---

Eliot
blog thing - strava thing

X2

The guy gets all over me for proposing a recreational/citizens division and then he comes out and admits that he is a DOPER! Seems he would be a great candidate for my hypothetical division split.

Classic!

---

Formerly DrD

Well, he didn't get caught, so it's fine :)

---

Eliot
blog thing - strava thing

You are a complete hypocrite.

Yep, but at least I have the balls to post my real name, ....

This place is great. I am a drafter since I wear a mirror. I am a doper because I got a shot it he back since I could not walk. Such an honor. I hope I am now above Lance.

.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep