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Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Maui5150] [ In reply to ]
 
Thanks for that information....


The important question, (in my mind from the post), was whether or not it is likely or possible that Lemond doped also.

And it looks like from your post, that it is incredibly unlikely that Lemond could possibly have doped in any effective way. Since EPO was likely, and largely, unused until the mid-90s, - Lemond was a few years gone from effective winning.

I was wrong to mention Lance in my post, - shouldn't have.

Yeah, - whether or not Lance was first to dope, in the first group to dope, or whatever is far less relevant than him (supplying PEDs), forcing/pressuring, others to dope.

I am more confident in my speculation that Lemond did not dope.
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Power13] [ In reply to ]
 
He could have, though with the older preparations that were used in the late 80's, unlikely. It's potentially a very risky treatment. There were many complications associated with the older preparations. This is why EPO was such a game changer. Also, iron therapy, unlike EPO, is a slow process to increase Hg. According to that article, it worked in a very short period of time. Usually, the time frame is many months. Somehow we like to disregard real world information when amazing comebacks are concerned. The argument here is not a he said, or eye witness accounts situation. And would not be a risk to positive test result. Lemond would have had multiple CBC's demonstrating that he was anemic and would have had follow-up analysis, to confirm successful treatment. His father in law was an OBGyn, and would be followed the usual team doctors that should monitoring his levels carefully. He was very smart rider and understood what to do. That combined with his gun shot history and the blood loss from that accident would have him very aware of what indices need to followed to maintain performance. Again, this is not an accusation, but wanting an explanation to a behind the scenes situation that does not fit the usual pattern that we see on a daily basis in the medical world. Lemond was one of the most gifted riders of his generation, but his hemopoietic system should work just like yours and mine. Just because you can TT faster than me, does not mean that you can make blood faster.
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Toenail] [ In reply to ]
 
Lemond straddled the threshold of the EPO era, hence the questions. Chiapucci's meteoric rise in '90, the dominance of Bugno in '91, etc. you can throw Big Mig in there if you want, although no evidence has ever risen against him.

So it is entirely plausible that GL had access to EPO. His performances from 91 onwards suggest otherwise, however.

Go watch the WCP tape of the '92 TdF and see Allan Peiper's comments about how fast the race was and what Chiapucci's HR was, etc.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Power13] [ In reply to ]
 
This may have been mentioned on ST, but on CNN, I heard Lance is going to make an announcement tonight.

Does anyone on ST really feel like a winner?

Whose the winner here: the sport of cycling; Lance's family, friends & employees; Livestrong; cancer patients; U.S. job market; the bike industry; Trek; Nike; Honey Stinger; Rabobank; Levi, etc.

Seems like a lot of collateral damage. Yes, I'm sad for all involved and that includes Travis.
Last edited by: TriBeer: Oct 19, 12 14:32
 
Re: Another Question Only [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
 
I need that jersey. Thank you! :0)
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [TriBeer] [ In reply to ]
 
TriBeer wrote:
This may have been mentioned on ST, but on CNN, I heard Lance is going to make an announcement tonight.

Does anyone on ST really feel like a winner?

Whose the winner here: the sport of cycling; Lance's family, friends & employees; Livestrong; cancer patients; U.S. job market; the bike industry; Trek; Nike; Honey Stinger; Rabobank; Levi, etc.

Seems like a lot of collateral damage. Yes, I'm sad for all involved and that includes Travis.

Flame away!

I wonder if this is his Livestrong speech (that's this weekend in Austin)? If he does come out with an "announcment" it would make sense as UCI will reveal its decision on Monday.
 
Re: A Question Only [lacticturkey] [ In reply to ]
 
I just reread this post. Good message and well written. Have a good weekend.

"Lance went over to take on a pack of dopers and came out tops. Everyone was on it so everyone is guilty of the peripheral charges of pushing and possession.

It sounds like he had a deal to get some immunity from tests, but it was long obvious that winners are selected in the tour. Its no coincidence that the team leaders are the best looking, most articulate, charismatic riders too. Cycling is so heavily political - you cant even pass someone without thinking of heirarchy. The tour was happy to have an all american hero emerge and it worked out that he had the cancer backdrop.

People are acting like scorned lovers. The psychology is understandable since many had a man-crush on this guy for a decade then feel like they have been disgraced for a relationship that they now percive to have been based on lies. You have the faithful lovers that will love even when slapped in the face, and the others that are spiteful and narrowminded in thier revenge seeking. These are the ones hungry for a pound of flesh.

Lance et al. went in and got the job done. The job description that they took on looked alot different than anyone could let the public know, but within the peloton it was understood. How many cyclists just said, " I dont want to talk about it" " I am not angry" I can think of loads... it was already the ingrained culture and his crew was the alpha pack.

The whole thing makes me think of war in that people are conflicted by they want to love soldiers but most are naive to the details of warfare. Winning the tour is war.

I think its natural that Lance lied since lieing is as much part of the culture as the doping itself. The outwardly clean image had to maintained during thousands of interviews by everyone. When he thought that people were outing him, he protected himself and probably felt like he was protecting the entire cycling industry from exposing the ugly head to the public. So then the cost was to try to lower the credibility of a couple of witnesses to sve cycling in the eye of the public ... thinking proof was impossible. The whole thing was ugly and dispicable and now reached the point of almost no return. Who would have thought the investigators were going to spend half a billion to prove that a tour de france rider doped in the ninties ?

Cycling in the tour is one of the most serious and straining jobs in the world job. People should stop acting surprised that people are going into battle as well armed as they can. Even making the tour completely non publicised and amateur wont stop people cheating. People were snorting coke before the sprint in fixie bike races in new york, for local bragging rights. I think in the earliest tours people were caught doing things like catching a train. Its just in nature of the game.

The whole investigation only proved that doping is expected and that tests are fallable. If anything I think the court cases have made doping more acceptable in society.

Am I pro doping? , no way ! I would love a clean race between men that fell in love with the whir of a clean chain while riding into the sunset as a kid.

This all wont be possible unless penalties are heavier. Letting people come back to the sport definately sends out the message that its not abhorrent, but human to dope. Almost like.. its okay, we know. The only way to say that it has zero tolerance is to punish the team so that the pressure is locally. All this is futile without effective testing since it seems that everyone was under the limbo bar on those protocols. As it is I dont know if they can deter someone from being the best through a bottle while threatening that they probably wont get caught but if they do they are welcome back in a couple of years, and will probably even have an advantage being tagged as a "now completely clean and anti drugs rider".

I know that people are going to say , well this is what they are doing with US postal now... but its too focal. There is no glory in blaming men who did thier jobs perfectly in the eyes of thier teams given the culture of a drugs arm race. They helped riders win the tour while testing clean. Thats what they were paid to think about how to do day and night. The millions and millions from the court cases should have been used to get testing up to speed since all they did was ruin cycling reputation and end up at square one with shitty testing." (lacticturkey)




 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [vandave] [ In reply to ]
 
vandave wrote:
I think the whole thing is a waste of time and money. Obviously Lance was juiced to the gills, but he also never got caught. He didn't get caught by the rules that were in place at the time.

See pg 139 of the USADA RD re: Bio Passport data
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Runguy] [ In reply to ]
 
I believe it is.
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [TriBeer] [ In reply to ]
 
TriBeer wrote:
This may have been mentioned on ST, but on CNN, I heard Lance is going to make an announcement tonight.

Does anyone on ST really feel like a winner?

Whose the winner here: the sport of cycling; Lance's family, friends & employees; Livestrong; cancer patients; U.S. job market; the bike industry; Trek; Nike; Honey Stinger; Rabobank; Levi, etc.

Seems like a lot of collateral damage. Yes, I'm sad for all involved and that includes Travis.

Flame away!

It's a huge win for cycling because the belief by many that a clean cyclist won the tour during some of the dirtiest years was very much holding back progress on making changes at the highest levels. If Lance admits he was dirty, the UCI cant hide anymore.

The US job market isnt being impacted except for about half a dozen guys who are currently unemployed because of this. Levi will get a new job.
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [pick6] [ In reply to ]
 
:)
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [mattreg3] [ In reply to ]
 
my 2 cents:

I was a fanboy, who was unconcerned with the allegations of Lance's doping, while being inspired by his cancer survival and athletic achievement. But the picture that has emerged from former teammates of Lance is not just one of a user, but of a pusher. The behind-the-scenes environment of the USPS team was apparently like an organized crime outfit, with Lance being a willing and persistent participant of high rank. That's too bad.
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [pick6] [ In reply to ]
 
I heard Lance is going to make an announcement tonight.

He is supposed to be speaking at the 15th anniversary event for Livestrong.

Yes, it will be interesting to hear what he does---or doesn't---say.

 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Mike C] [ In reply to ]
 
Mike C wrote:
I heard Lance is going to make an announcement tonight.

He is supposed to be speaking at the 15th anniversary event for Livestrong.

Yes, it will be interesting to hear what he does---or doesn't---say.

My guess is he'll make jokes about the ban, about the lost sponsors, brush it off, and keep acting like he's moving forward but still make a way to smart off about the ban in multiple answers, thats how he handled it at Half Full. Confessing opens him up to so much in terms of lawsuits and such that I doubt he'll do it.
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [pick6] [ In reply to ]
 
My guess is he'll make jokes about the ban, about the lost sponsors, brush it off, and keep acting like he's moving forward but still make a way to smart off about the ban in multiple answers, thats how he handled it at Half Full. Confessing opens him up to so much in terms of lawsuits and such that I doubt he'll do it.

Agree except for the joking part, unless it's nervous-type joking...not really sure... Definitely won't be an eye-opener most likely, not at this stage anyway, and if I had to guess I would say virtually no mention of this except to parrot the "moving forward" theme and just pretend the giant elephant is not really in the room.

 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [pick6] [ In reply to ]
 
pick6 wrote:
Mike C wrote:
I heard Lance is going to make an announcement tonight.

He is supposed to be speaking at the 15th anniversary event for Livestrong.

Yes, it will be interesting to hear what he does---or doesn't---say.


My guess is he'll make jokes about the ban, about the lost sponsors, brush it off, and keep acting like he's moving forward but still make a way to smart off about the ban in multiple answers, thats how he handled it at Half Full. Confessing opens him up to so much in terms of lawsuits and such that I doubt he'll do it.

Agreed. Given that he testified under oath during the SCA debacle, he opens himself up to potential jail time by confessing. So I'd be shocked if that's on the table at all, even privately.
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Mike C] [ In reply to ]
 
Man....

Your post caused sorry feelings to well up from within.

As someone who endeavors to have a decent relationship with the Buddha, - I've turned around. I used to just hate the guy for being so insecure, angry, and obsessed beyond reason into hurting the people in his life that he should be celebrating.
It has never been about drugs, it has been about treating people badly and bringing them down to make himself look better. It is about (essentially) selling your soul, honor, and grace and friends to achieve a comparatively trivial goal. The costs to him, (even if he isn't mindful enough to fully recognize them), will be very, very, very, high indeed.

I feel really sorry for the suffering that he has placed upon himself.
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [bobloblaw] [ In reply to ]
 
bobloblaw wrote:

Agreed. Given that he testified under oath during the SCA debacle, he opens himself up to potential jail time by confessing. So I'd be shocked if that's on the table at all, even privately.

Well if it was more then 5 years ago he has nothing to worry about as it is past the federal limitations.
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Hanaki] [ In reply to ]
 
Hanaki wrote:
bobloblaw wrote:


Agreed. Given that he testified under oath during the SCA debacle, he opens himself up to potential jail time by confessing. So I'd be shocked if that's on the table at all, even privately.


Well if it was more then 5 years ago he has nothing to worry about as it is past the federal limitations.

I dont think he's worried about Jail, its the 7.5 million plus interest he needs to pay back to SCA, but even more importantly is the Qui Tam lawsuit. a confession guarantees government involvement.
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [pick6] [ In reply to ]
 
pick6 wrote:
I dont think he's worried about Jail, its the 7.5 million plus interest he needs to pay back to SCA, but even more importantly is the Qui Tam lawsuit. a confession guarantees government involvement.

I really doubt that they will get any money. I think the arbitrator rulled that they had no out even if he used drugs. They didn't specifially have that in the insurance.

Per SCA's lawyer Tillotson - "Armstrong’s lies, as outlined in the agency’s report, had changed the understanding that was reached through arbitration. He acknowledged that any decision on recourse will rest with an arbitrator."
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [pick6] [ In reply to ]
 
And it's not over yet. There's much, much more that's going to come out (not just about LA)
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
 
Carl Spackler wrote:
And it's not over yet. There's much, much more that's going to come out (not just about LA)

Oh no doubt, this is just the party crashers finally getting past the bouncer.
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [Hanaki] [ In reply to ]
 
Hanaki wrote:
pick6 wrote:

I dont think he's worried about Jail, its the 7.5 million plus interest he needs to pay back to SCA, but even more importantly is the Qui Tam lawsuit. a confession guarantees government involvement.


I really doubt that they will get any money. I think the arbitrator rulled that they had no out even if he used drugs. They didn't specifially have that in the insurance.

Per SCA's lawyer Tillotson - "Armstrong’s lies, as outlined in the agency’s report, had changed the understanding that was reached through arbitration. He acknowledged that any decision on recourse will rest with an arbitrator."

a judgement won based on fraud and false testimony is different. Plus as i said far more worrying is the Qui Tam suit. a confession guarantees a multimillion dollar judgement against him.
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [pick6] [ In reply to ]
 
pick6 wrote:
a judgement won based on fraud and false testimony is different. Plus as i said far more worrying is the Qui Tam suit. a confession guarantees a multimillion dollar judgement against him.

It guarantees nothing unless he says I used goverment money. That is why the feds didn't have a case.
 
Re: USADA/Lance Armstrong File Official Thread [ In reply to ]
 
Here is my question: Will the people who have been demanding an admission from LA and think he is the devil change their tune if he does admit it tonight in his speech?
 

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