Phil Liggett's career as a bumbling english-accented cycling sportscaster was extended by at least a decade by Armstrong, in addition to being famous.

Its what every Armstrong hater hates to hear, but Liggett is right that Armstrong has been good for cycling. If all the cycling champions are dopers, and they all are, then one that brought the sport from Europe to America was good for cycling.

What people fail to grasp is that Armstrong will be the only disgraced multiple TdF winner because he was American in a European sport. Europeans didn't care all that much about cycling doping until Americans started winning.

In other news, there are 11 men who have run 2:04s in the marathon and another 9 who have run 2:05s this year.

Same nonsense defense used and reworked so far. How about allowing the facts come out?

Europeans still don't care about doping in cycling. They, or at least the ones in charge of the UCI, ASA and the rest care, as they always have, about making cycling as popular, spectacular and profitable as possible. No-one has done more to shelter #7 than "the Europeans" and when they have gone after Americans, reluctantly, it seems increasingly likely it was at the bidding or at least with the approval of #7. This case was brought by, say it with me now, the United States Anti Doping Agency. The European attitude is deplorable but to paint what's happening now as Europeans getting their revenge on brash Americans with the temerity to win their event is a fantasy that played out years ago.

If cycling manages to conduct some form of root and branch reform and if it thereby manages to survive as an Olympic sport then, possibly, you could say #7 has been good for the sport - in the narrow sense that his involvement finally dragged into the fray at anti-doping authority with the integrity and resolve to reveal the truth.

---

"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

"The most sophisticated doping program ever"...

Are you kidding me? East Germany and Russia at the height of the cold war Olympics dwarfed this by a factor of a 100.

The NBA, NFL, NHL, and MLB have more money at stake, and there have been rumors of team doping programs in the NFL. That's a 50-person team.

And what about soccer/futbol?

Cue the Keanu photo...

It is called sensationalism. It gets people to read your report (USADA) so that they think you did a good job. It gets people to read the internet news article as well.

Wow you people just don't get it.

This is small fry compared to the NCAA/SEC football, NFL, NBA, world soccer, NHL, MLB. A couple hundred million? How about the Eastern Europe and Russian sports programmes? How about China these days?

That's chump change in the game of big sports.

Wake the F up you morons.

Try doing some research on Boxing. That involves all the big wigs and boxers taking dives for money. That is way worst then cycling. DOJ case was dropped cause they had egg on their face from the two previous cases. Their case was about sponsorship money not about doping.

I'm not the keeper of the facts, but those are not facts. If all the parties stopped playing games, the facts might see the light of day, but at this juncture everyone is overinvested in their own mythology. All the witnesses are trying to minimize their alleged drug usage or involvement. (How many times did Hincapie take steroids, epo, or whatever, and when? Odd the statute of limitations is up on his claims. That alone suggests the USADA is looking the other way to grab one fish in the pool.) USADA is hiding facts inconsistent with their narrative, which is why we have the Brady Rule in criminal law. (release the recordings of the interviews if you want to shine a light on what was said by whom and when). And Lance is likewise not coming fully clean.

You'd think this was a case of genocide with the attention it is being given. This is only an alleged non-criminal drug case. It isn't the end or beginning of anything.

Anyway, don't hold your breath waiting for all the facts to be made public. That isn't going to happen, and posting on ST certainly isn't going to elucidate much.

-Robert

---

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

God I forgot about combat sports.

I think PEDs are openly accepted in MMA, based on what I've seen and heard. Look at the prez of the U F C... I'm just going to say he can be describe with the words "I'm also a client", and I'm obviously not talking about hair replacement.

Thanks. That's the EXACT confirmation I was looking for. Just wanted to make sure I was reading what I read correctly. That all these guys were doping before they even got involved directly with Lance. Lance only helped them improve their own doping program.

Again, based on this I still don't see Lance as the ring leader. I'm not seeing that he took clean riders and turned them into dopers. He assisted riders who were dopers already become better dopers. So back to usada and their report. They are absolutely targeting Lance and saying anything other than that is a complete lie. All the riders that gave usada sworn testimony were already doping prior to Lance anyway......so in all reality they are equally as bad as Lance if not worse.

Michael

No, you mis-read what I said. Tyler only started doping when told to do so by USPS. I said he wanted to step it up to get on the TdF squad - it was a team-controlled program. Scott Mercier refused to join in the doping and was promptly sacked. And other riders did not dope until told they had no choice but to do so if they wanted to remain with the team.

Why don't you actually do some research before jumping to conclusions that fit your rose-tinted glasses view of the world.

Robert, I'm genuinely interested, so please don't take this the wrong way. You seem to have a very 'libertarian' (for want of a better word) view on all this, and indeed on the wider issue of PED use in sports. You often say things like 'why are we even bothering to comment/get involved', 'live and let live' etc. So my question is, why do you spend so much time here reading and commenting?

Nice try Kay, but it's pretty clear there are a lot of people posting here who haven't read anything about this case, or can barely read and understand your posts! :)

Stay tuned everyone. More to come on all of this. We are going to see lawsuits and maybe people going to jail before this is all said and done.

"I seem to remember some people saying that the Fed's had little to do with this part of the investigation " (Runguy)

You are correct. The Reasoned Decision mentioned that the Feds had nothng to do with the evidence in the report: "As a result, none of the evidence assembled by USADA has come from federal lawenforcement."

Because I'm retired, lonely, old, slow, and too stupid to do anything better? ;)

I don't know how everyone else who isn't retired has time for this. I remember when I had a job and I'd be lucky to post once or twice a week, and if I was able to get a couple of runs in at 10 p.m. during the week I was thrilled. Now, it seems everyone has instant access to this forum all day every day. Is it the recession, or is America spiriling out of control?

Anyway, yes, most of this is just nonsense. The war on drugs was lost 40 years ago. I will admit to a libertarian view on most human foibles (sex, drugs, rocknroll), though I am not inclined to libertarian views otherwise. I will vote for Jill Stein, but we should leave it there if we want to keep this out of the LR.

Thanks for asking.

-Robert

---

"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

I'm a realist (actually more of a factualist)...no rose tinted glasses. I am just looking for the evidence that shows where Lance himself took clean riders and made them dope.
Even your comment about Tyler......didn't ready anywhere where Lance pulled him aside to make him dope. Even you generically said it was usps. I read most of the riders testimonies and each and every one of them were already doping before they got hooked up with Lance.

yes, fact - Lance Doped
fact - all the riders that supplied usada with testimony doped prior to Lance or maybe better stated would be Lance didn't ask or was involved in the 1st time these riders used PEDS.
fact - they all went to or asked Lance for PED's and advise at some point seeking help with their own current doping program
fact - Postal had a pretty organized doping program along with many other teams

....just not seeing how Lance all of a sudden is the Godfather of Doping....he was better at it than the others, that's all. My "opinion is that Bruyneel and Dr. F were more the ring leaders forcing the team doping. Usada should have made their focus on these guys and Lance should have been cast as one of the riders they were seeing testimony from....but by singling out a rider instead of the team management it does look like a rider witch hunt....again in my opinion. Do I believe that Lance was more involved in the team doping program than most of the other riders......sure, probably......but not the team organized ring leader or god father the media and usada is making him out to be.

Michael

Booohooo for them. That is such a lame excuse. They still had a choice not to dope if they really didn't want to. Maybe those riders didn't have a "choice" if they wanted to race at the elite international level and be one of the top cyclists in the world. But they still had a choice, even if they would forever be a CAT 1 racer and work at a local hardware store. No one held a gun to their head. They could have all walked away at any point and said "screw it, may values are more important than this." But now, they basked in the limelight and all the wins and money they got as a result. They wanted the fame, glory, money and excitement that professional cycling would offer them. So no, I don't feel sorry for these guys who claim they were "forced" to dope or else they didn't have a team. Fine, you don't have a team. Why compromise your values for that?

But some had.

+1

Assuming everyone has seen this AU vid:
http://www.abc.net.au/...12/10/11/3608613.htm

Not much new except taped depositions of many key players sworn to under oath. What is keeping Lance from going to jail in the near future?

I guess what I meant to say was that but for the Fed's involvement (and by extension the possibility of perjury) it seems the testimony gathered by USADA would not have gathered steam as it did.

Same thing as Roger Clemens. You can have all the evidence in the world, but if you can't convince a jury, it is all for naught. With Operation Fast and Furious, Libya consult attack and an upcoming election, I think DoJ has more important things to spend its time and money on.

Also, I hope you change your sentence around to state "What is keeping Hincapie, Landis, Hamilton, CVV, DZ, Danielson, LL, Horner, JV...etc. from going to jail in the near future?"

Completely agree with you. I was merely answering Michael's question about whether riders were forced to dope to remain on USPS.

Sorry KS. I read it as if you were excusing the actions of Tyler since he was "forced" by USPS to dope. Sorry.

Did all the guys you itemized lie under oath? My question relates to perjury specifically, not any other criminal activity related to these interesting events.