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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [Jason80134] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think it is a fact that this drug is "performance enhancing" in the case of endurance athletes.
It seem to be more used by body builders in lieu of steroids. The target market is supposedly osteoporosis patients or to slow down muscle wasting in cancer patients.

And as Gerdes stated in her blog the 1/2 life and cycle for this drug would do no good for the race she competed in. She states that she was tested and clean 4 or so weeks before at another tri.
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [Sparty1989] [ In reply to ]
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The theory is that improper machine cleaning contaminates the drugs. The stuff in the prior batch inadvertently gets into the next batch.

That sounds reasonable, but is it true?

Someone earlier in the thread, identifying as a chemist, said this is unlikely. It's unlikely that residual chemicals on the manufacturing equipment would be at levels high enough enough for someone to get popped on a blood test.
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [Sparty1989] [ In reply to ]
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Sparty1989 wrote:
One way to get around this is to do all manufacturing in-house. You should also have an analytical group with QA/QC to check the quality of the raws entering your site (e.g. is the salt, really 100% salt).

I looked at the websites of a couple supplement companies. None of them disclose any information on manufacturing or what they are doing regarding quality control. Most of them have athlete testimonials, but nothing on how often they test the finished product for composition or contamination. Personally, If I'm going to take a supplement or nutritional item (e.g. gel), I only use items from companies that I think are large enough to manufacture in-house (e.g. gels, it's Clif, Powerbar, Gu only).

So I just brought this up in the other thread on the topic and the problem is that is there are so many places for error. You can:

- Source the ingredients yourself
- Test them to make sure they are clean
- Make your batch
- Distribute

But just look at Wells Fargo, one of the World's Largest Banks. You still have to ensure that people DO their jobs ethically. Who is to say the analytical people don't to do their job correctly or maybe management says "don't test that batch, we need to save some money".

When it comes down to it there is no 100% absolute guarantee and there is always going to be the possibility for things to go wrong. In addition, I think large companies like Clif, Powerbar, Gu give the illusion of security but we don't really know. One product I use by Powerbar is cNSF and that is their Beta-Alanine. Obviously post-production analysis is going to be your best chance at reducing positive tests.

Fwiw, Base I believe is made in New York or New Jersey - but I believe they changed it up in the last year or so. As for me, I haven't kept bottles, but like I said my processes are going to change because of this. Yesterday I had to re-order Vitamin D. Instead of going with a 500 capsule bottle I went with 5x100 capsule bottles for this very reason. It was more expensive to do so. In addition, what happens when I get to the last bottle and I don't have another unopened bottle? Do I just re-order and hope I get the same batch lot again? If not I guess I would have to pitch the 5th bottle.


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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [Pat0] [ In reply to ]
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Pat0 wrote:
I don't think it is a fact that this drug is "performance enhancing" in the case of endurance athletes.
It seem to be more used by body builders in lieu of steroids. The target market is supposedly osteoporosis patients or to slow down muscle wasting in cancer patients.

And as Gerdes stated in her blog the 1/2 life and cycle for this drug would do no good for the race she competed in. She states that she was tested and clean 4 or so weeks before at another tri.

Fair enough. But then why is it banned for triathletes?
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [Jason80134] [ In reply to ]
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Jason80134 wrote:
The theory is that improper machine cleaning contaminates the drugs. The stuff in the prior batch inadvertently gets into the next batch.

That sounds reasonable, but is it true?

Someone earlier in the thread, identifying as a chemist, said this is unlikely. It's unlikely that residual chemicals on the manufacturing equipment would be at levels high enough enough for someone to get popped on a blood test.


That would be one theory (tableting machine contamination), it may be unlikely, but I don't think it can be completely ruled out. From what I understand, the levels that were found in the salt tablets were trace. How did it get there? It could also be that one of the components in the salt tablet mix itself was contaminated (e.g. the NaCl raw feed somehow contained Ostarine (how? Well here's an spitball thought: What if the NaCl needs to be particle size reduced for proper tableting, and what if that's done on a jet mill that just particle size reduced Ostarine?)). You'd have to go back through the entire process, from raws to final tablet to find out where the contamination occurred.

There are multiple reports of contaminated supplements. This is not an isolated incident. Contamination could occur at all points in the manufacturing cycle (from raws to final tablet). To me, the only way to really control the product, is to own as much of the process as possible (or you've really got to have good manufacturing partners).
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:

So I just brought this up in the other thread on the topic and the problem is that is there are so many places for error. You can:

- Source the ingredients yourself
- Test them to make sure they are clean
- Make your batch
- Distribute

But just look at Wells Fargo, one of the World's Largest Banks. You still have to ensure that people DO their jobs ethically. Who is to say the analytical people don't to do their job correctly or maybe management says "don't test that batch, we need to save some money".

When it comes down to it there is no 100% absolute guarantee and there is always going to be the possibility for things to go wrong. In addition, I think large companies like Clif, Powerbar, Gu give the illusion of security but we don't really know. One product I use by Powerbar is cNSF and that is their Beta-Alanine. Obviously post-production analysis is going to be your best chance at reducing positive tests.

Fwiw, Base I believe is made in New York or New Jersey - but I believe they changed it up in the last year or so. As for me, I haven't kept bottles, but like I said my processes are going to change because of this. Yesterday I had to re-order Vitamin D. Instead of going with a 500 capsule bottle I went with 5x100 capsule bottles for this very reason. It was more expensive to do so. In addition, what happens when I get to the last bottle and I don't have another unopened bottle? Do I just re-order and hope I get the same batch lot again? If not I guess I would have to pitch the 5th bottle.


I agree on the personnel issue. You can have all the policies/procedures in place, but if the person doesn't do their job, then the product could be compromised.

Regarding large companies, perhaps I'm naive, but my hope is that those companies are more likely to have folks with the proper education/expertise to ensure quality control/quality assurance/product quality. I'm less certain if people with those qualifications are employed by smaller supplement companies.

I agree with your decision to retain un-opened bottles of supplements. Based on the uncertainty around quality in supplements, I think it's part of the "cost" of being a professional athlete.
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [Pat0] [ In reply to ]
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Pat0 wrote:
I don't think it is a fact that this drug is "performance enhancing" in the case of endurance athletes.
It seem to be more used by body builders in lieu of steroids. The target market is supposedly osteoporosis patients or to slow down muscle wasting in cancer patients.

And as Gerdes stated in her blog the 1/2 life and cycle for this drug would do no good for the race she competed in. She states that she was tested and clean 4 or so weeks before at another tri.

They said the same thing about EPO and marathon runners. It would be no good for them. Yet who gets popped for EPO use?

Ian
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [Pat0] [ In reply to ]
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Pat0 wrote:
I don't think it is a fact that this drug is "performance enhancing" in the case of endurance athletes.
It seem to be more used by body builders in lieu of steroids. The target market is supposedly osteoporosis patients or to slow down muscle wasting in cancer patients.

And as Gerdes stated in her blog the 1/2 life and cycle for this drug would do no good for the race she competed in. She states that she was tested and clean 4 or so weeks before at another tri.

A quick google shows that a lot of your first paragraph describes testosterone as well. Why do endurance athletes get busted for that?


Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | Cervelo | RokaWetsuits | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [-BrandonMarshTX] [ In reply to ]
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-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
Pat0 wrote:
I don't think it is a fact that this drug is "performance enhancing" in the case of endurance athletes.
It seem to be more used by body builders in lieu of steroids. The target market is supposedly osteoporosis patients or to slow down muscle wasting in cancer patients.

And as Gerdes stated in her blog the 1/2 life and cycle for this drug would do no good for the race she competed in. She states that she was tested and clean 4 or so weeks before at another tri.


A quick google shows that a lot of your first paragraph describes testosterone as well. Why do endurance athletes get busted for that?
Good point. I still think this is an injustice and gone too far. Thanks Lance.
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Jason80134 wrote:
If I take a giant step back and look at this as objectively as possible, I have a hard time believing the athelete justifications and reasons for testing positive.


In top of that, athelete have been universally warned about taking "supplements".



Right but that is thing, this is salt for crying out loud. It is not like it is something I just made up:

"Jacked"
- Increase FTP by 60 watts
- Increase Recovery Ability
- Have better sex etc

Athletes are going to need salt and other basic ingredients unless Ironman loosens up their policy on littering and we bring back bananas

I had a coach say the way he got salt during a race was to eat wheat thins. So, no salt tablets for me, I just ate wheat thins. Or crackers and pretzels on the run.
Sorry, these stories just get old after a while. And these are pro's leading by example? Not for me.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Jason80134 wrote:
If I take a giant step back and look at this as objectively as possible, I have a hard time believing the athelete justifications and reasons for testing positive.


In top of that, athelete have been universally warned about taking "supplements".



Right but that is thing, this is salt for crying out loud. It is not like it is something I just made up:

"Jacked"
- Increase FTP by 60 watts
- Increase Recovery Ability
- Have better sex etc

Athletes are going to need salt and other basic ingredients unless Ironman loosens up their policy on littering and we bring back bananas


I had a coach say the way he got salt during a race was to eat wheat thins. So, no salt tablets for me, I just ate wheat thins. Or crackers and pretzels on the run.
Sorry, these stories just get old after a while. And these are pro's leading by example? Not for me.


Have you checked the ingredients? Wait, you eat a Denny's a lot.....so go figure....

leslie myers
http://www.foodsensenow.com
Last edited by: Honey: Feb 5, 17 12:29
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [Pat0] [ In reply to ]
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So you're saying that if she uses it to reduce fat and increase muscle, but doesn't cycle it specifically for a certain race, then it doesn't help at all?

I don't know about the drug, but it seems like people cycle on/off drugs so they don't get popped for it.

Would she have any benefit from it taking it following a race? Does it increase muscle and allow better recovery? Yes. So taking a smaller amount after a half Ironman when you're racing a full in 4 weeks would have some benefit.

Like I said, I don't know anything about the half life etc so I might be way off.

She also said in her blog that she didn't take it, yet science and drug testing says otherwise

I quit reading her blog when she threw out a bunch of faulty logic abiut her history with drug testing. As we know, never testing positive doesn't mean lance wasn't dirty. Never missing a test also doesn't mean she wasn't using Ostarine.
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [Honey] [ In reply to ]
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Honey wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Jason80134 wrote:
If I take a giant step back and look at this as objectively as possible, I have a hard time believing the athelete justifications and reasons for testing positive.


In top of that, athelete have been universally warned about taking "supplements".



Right but that is thing, this is salt for crying out loud. It is not like it is something I just made up:

"Jacked"
- Increase FTP by 60 watts
- Increase Recovery Ability
- Have better sex etc

Athletes are going to need salt and other basic ingredients unless Ironman loosens up their policy on littering and we bring back bananas


I had a coach say the way he got salt during a race was to eat wheat thins. So, no salt tablets for me, I just ate wheat thins. Or crackers and pretzels on the run.
Sorry, these stories just get old after a while. And these are pro's leading by example? Not for me.


Have you checked the ingredients? Wait, you eat a Denny's a lot.....so go figure....

I never take a supplement to help improve my performance, increase recovery, etc. But, maybe I am the exception. I just train hard

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [Jason80134] [ In reply to ]
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Jason80134 wrote:
Pat0 wrote:
I don't think it is a fact that this drug is "performance enhancing" in the case of endurance athletes.
It seem to be more used by body builders in lieu of steroids. The target market is supposedly osteoporosis patients or to slow down muscle wasting in cancer patients.

And as Gerdes stated in her blog the 1/2 life and cycle for this drug would do no good for the race she competed in. She states that she was tested and clean 4 or so weeks before at another tri.


Fair enough. But then why is it banned for triathletes?

testosterone increasing products during a race are useless. they are worth while taken for a long period of time before a race (to do multiple hard workouts and recover quick for them) or after a competition (to get back to doing multiple hard workouts quickly). so taking the strongest steriod shot or pill 1 hour before a race, will not do anything.


http://www.coupleofathletes.com
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [thisgirl] [ In reply to ]
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thisgirl wrote:
So you're saying that if she uses it to reduce fat and increase muscle, but doesn't cycle it specifically for a certain race, then it doesn't help at all?

I don't know about the drug, but it seems like people cycle on/off drugs so they don't get popped for it.

Would she have any benefit from it taking it following a race? Does it increase muscle and allow better recovery? Yes. So taking a smaller amount after a half Ironman when you're racing a full in 4 weeks would have some benefit.

Like I said, I don't know anything about the half life etc so I might be way off.

She also said in her blog that she didn't take it, yet science and drug testing says otherwise

I quit reading her blog when she threw out a bunch of faulty logic abiut her history with drug testing. As we know, never testing positive doesn't mean lance wasn't dirty. Never missing a test also doesn't mean she wasn't using Ostarine.

She did have the drug in her system. Does that mean that she was, "using Ostarine?" I think not. She knew she would be tested when she was placing well. I doubt that she would do this (for various reasons) but not unimportantly because she would lose her credibility. Her stance on clean sport etc. It seems ridiculous that people are questioning this. Of course if she is dirty then I think you would want her spouse tested. Stat.
Last edited by: Pat0: Feb 5, 17 12:53
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I had a coach say the way he got salt during a race was to eat wheat thins. So, no salt tablets for me, I just ate wheat thins. Or crackers and pretzels on the run.
Sorry, these stories just get old after a while. And these are pro's leading by example? Not for me.[/quote]

Have you checked the ingredients? Wait, you eat a Denny's a lot.....so go figure....[/quote]

I never take a supplement to help improve my performance, increase recovery, etc. But, maybe I am the exception. I just train hard[/quote]
Right. Of course you don't. Because you are the only one amongst the pros and on this forum who trains hard......

leslie myers
http://www.foodsensenow.com
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [Honey] [ In reply to ]
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Honey wrote:

I had a coach say the way he got salt during a race was to eat wheat thins. So, no salt tablets for me, I just ate wheat thins. Or crackers and pretzels on the run.
Sorry, these stories just get old after a while. And these are pro's leading by example? Not for me.


Have you checked the ingredients? Wait, you eat a Denny's a lot.....so go figure....[/quote]

I never take a supplement to help improve my performance, increase recovery, etc. But, maybe I am the exception. I just train hard[/quote]

Right. Of course you don't. Because you are the only one amongst the pros and on this forum who trains hard......[/quote]I am just curious. Do you consider taking whey protein a supplement?
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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They are juiced out of their minds
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [Pat0] [ In reply to ]
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my observation: if you know an athlete this drastically reduces the likelihood you think that athlete is a doper. likewise anything that causes you to have an affinity for the athlete (gender, nationality, a reader of the athlete's blog, etc.).

if you don't know the athlete; if the athlete is not from your country; if the athlete is a 2-dimensional cardboard figure to you; you're much more likely to assume the athlete is doping.

i am guilty of this. the only difference between me and everyone else is that i admit it. i have no flipping idea who is guilty and who is not. i just think that it would be interesting to put the simple facts of each of these cases that come up and see really how much the differ, how much they are alike, and what the public reaction is to them.

what is troubling to me is the result of the infraction: either a 4yr ban, a 2yr ban, no ban, a completely silent and unknown (to you and me) results management process, or a total cave by the testing authority, all for pretty similar infractions.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [thisgirl] [ In reply to ]
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thisgirl wrote:

I quit reading her blog when she threw out a bunch of faulty logic abiut her history with drug testing. As we know, never testing positive doesn't mean lance wasn't dirty. Never missing a test also doesn't mean she wasn't using Ostarine.


I think it is very challenging to write in general as the perspectives of people are so diverse that you never know how they are going to interpret things. In this specific instance it has to be even more challenging. She is trying to give all the details people might want to know. I think she wanted to make it clear that prior to this event, nothing had been "swept under the rug". As we have seen lately by FancyBear, there are plenty of people who have abused the TUE process, and we would have never known about them had FancyBear not exposed them. She has also said she has never missed test. I am not sure if either one of these facts can even be legitimately verified but I can understand why she feels it is important to mention - simply put missing tests and abusing TUEs is very shady. It may be *technically* legal, but it is shady.


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Last edited by: Thomas Gerlach: Feb 5, 17 13:58
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I agree 100%. I do know Beth and have gone back and forth about her guilt/innocence. I know the work she put in. But the fact is she had ostarine in her system. I tiny amount. And her blog post is full of things that are not logically related to her innocence. This is smoke and mirrors to me.

Fwiw, I also commented to someone a few months ago that something was up with her lack of return to racing after a minor procedure. So maybe I was already looking at her like she was guilty even though I feel like I wasn't.
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [thisgirl] [ In reply to ]
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thisgirl wrote:
I also commented to someone a few months ago that something was up with her lack of return to racing after a minor procedure. So maybe I was already looking at her like she was guilty even though I feel like I wasn't.

i wrote about the process a year or so ago. i haven't spoke to beth, but in general the reason you might not see her racing is because the results management process is secret while it's ongoing, but the athlete is not allowed to race (in ironman racing, but i think per the Code in all federation racing) while the process is ongoing.

so, somebody's not racing for 9 months and suddenly is racing again. maybe an injury. maybe a pregnancy. maybe i'm finishing my degree. could be a lot of things. but it could be i got popped and it took me 9 months to demonstrate my innocence in which case i wasn't allowed to race during that time period. but you'll never know because it's unfair to me to even have it be known that i was popped because if it turns out i'm innocent then why should my reputation be sullied even by the knowledge that there was an adverse finding?

in the case of lauren barnett i think her ban was over a day after her ban was announced. this is because she was effectively banned during her results management process, so her ban started then.

you never have to worry about an athlete racing after returning an adverse A sample and while his or her case is in process. that's a good thing, i think.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [thisgirl] [ In reply to ]
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thisgirl wrote:
I agree 100%. I do know Beth and have gone back and forth about her guilt/innocence. I know the work she put in. But the fact is she had ostarine in her system. I tiny amount. And her blog post is full of things that are not logically related to her innocence. This is smoke and mirrors to me.

Fwiw, I also commented to someone a few months ago that something was up with her lack of return to racing after a minor procedure. So maybe I was already looking at her like she was guilty even though I feel like I wasn't.

First if you know her then I am surprised that you question her innocence. Secondly why don't you share with , instead of intimating, what you feel are the smoke and mirrors and logic regarding her innocence. I thought her blog post was pretty well laid out.
She explained in her blog post why she didn't come back, because she was under investigation. She gave her Kona slot up because she wanted to be fair to her fellow competitors. Oh btw, I have never met her so I have no reason to defend her so strongly other than I feel it is unjust. And sad.
Last edited by: Pat0: Feb 5, 17 13:47
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Jason80134 wrote:
If I take a giant step back and look at this as objectively as possible, I have a hard time believing the athelete justifications and reasons for testing positive.


In top of that, athelete have been universally warned about taking "supplements".



Right but that is thing, this is salt for crying out loud. It is not like it is something I just made up:

"Jacked"
- Increase FTP by 60 watts
- Increase Recovery Ability
- Have better sex etc

Athletes are going to need salt and other basic ingredients unless Ironman loosens up their policy on littering and we bring back bananas


I had a coach say the way he got salt during a race was to eat wheat thins. So, no salt tablets for me, I just ate wheat thins. Or crackers and pretzels on the run.
Sorry, these stories just get old after a while. And these are pro's leading by example? Not for me.

Dave,

I have a hard time believing that you would do anything but the exact opposite of what any coach suggested.

Maurice

http://www.multisportsolutions.com
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [thisgirl] [ In reply to ]
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 I know the work she put in.//

I see people use this phrase all the time, but what really does it(do you) mean? As far as I know, dopers and clean athletes work just as hard as each other, how much work someone puts in has "0" to do with weather they doped or not. Come to think of it, the dopers I have known and trained with did put in more work, for obvious reasons. But work ethic I would never use as a factor in whether I think someone dopes or not.. That is just something that all great athletes have as part of their DNA, otherwise they would never have gotten where they have in sport.
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