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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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I haven't read one single post in this thread yet beyond Bryan's first post/link.

I'd be willing to bet there's several posts by people saying Gerdes and Barnett did not knowingly cheat because they're such nice people, several people calling bullshit on that, and several posts about how supplements get contaminated in the manufacturing process.

How did I do?

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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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This article does a really good job of reviewing the problem and to address your question when supplements get tested one-by-one you definitely do find ones with high PED concentrations :https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...articles/PMC2465258/

Included in the article are the results of a 2004 study of 634 widely available supplements. 14.8% of the tested substances contained banned PEDs. Some of the contamination levels were on the level of 10 parts per billion consistent with unintentionally cross-contamination (I seriously doubt these would cause a positive drug test). At the higher-end however you are talking 190 parts per million or 10,000 times the lower values. It is these higher values that are extremely unlikely to result from simple cross-contamination and, depending on the substance, will lead to failed drug tests. I realize that I am still talking about what might seem like trace concentrations but the list of things they tested for include some extremely potent substances that aren't just kicking around production facilities at high levels.

Also it does not surprise me that both athletes who tested positive were female. Drug tests are calibrated against the 'normal' gender range for hormone-type substance and for many steroidal substances women have lower critical thresholds for a positive test (this is where gender testing in sports opens its own can of worms of what what is fair). In other words if men and women take the same substance a men can, in general, take higher doses before they fail the test. The issue is amplified when considering that on average women are smaller then men and their for the drugs are more concentrated in their bodies. I will bet that there were men who took the same tainted supplements as the two unfortunate female athletes and got tested but didn't return positive test due the aforementioned factors. I believe that (unfortunatley) female athletes need to be far more careful about supplements than male athletes because they are more likely to fall victim to testing positive as a result of taking supplements.
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [scott8888] [ In reply to ]
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"i will bet that there were men who took the same tainted supplements as the two unfortunate female athletes"

i find your statement quoted, and the thread in general, interesting against the backdrop of the recent case of the UK athlete found to have inadvertently ingested clenbuterol. i don't know which athlete did what, nor do i know why. i just note a lot of skepticism in the clen case and somewhat more benefit of the doubt in this case.

is it because of gender? nationality? is it because of how people see clenbuterol versus ostarine? is it because of which organization handled results management? i don't know. but that latter point, to me that's a very compelling point. i believe that we'll never really feel good about drug testing until results management is handled by independent actors who are entirely neutral.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [DomerTriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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Neither woman noted in the charges would knowingly put that in their body.


Doesn't everyone say the exact same thing?


And I suppose every duffle bag (d-bag for short) that has no independent thought and jumps at the opportunity to put down someone who is a superior athlete to them because it makes them think they are better than them would say. I'm not saying that describes you but if we're lumping everyone together based on what the guilty say, you look like a real d-bag.


I didn't make any statement on the case. However, in every single drug case in history, the person testing positive says they wouldn't knowingly take drugs and I was responding to the poster who seemed to use that as proof of their innocence.

We don't know all the facts, but I was responding to the poster who appeared to know for a fact that they are innocent because they wouldn't knowingly put that in their body. It's not really a convincing defense.


Have you ever heard of a case where the person testing positive comes out and said they knowingly did it? Surely, the thousands of cases of drug use in sports has taught us something.
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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General thread response.

Classified Nutrition was added to supplement 411 on usada site yesterday (Feb 3) as high risk to contain Ostarine.

These were in competition tests. Doing an ironman especially at pro level is near impossible without salt tablets.

Lets stick to facts. Trace limits of a drug that has 1 to 5 day life cycle with 1 athlete able to prove it was in her salt tablets (assume she had more at home for review testing from same batch) and the other had one test with it in (Beth's blog outlines this) a 2nd with it not in from 2 different batches of pills. Hence Lisa 6 month and Beth 2 year and neither 4 years.

@rhyspencer
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [wannabefaster] [ In reply to ]
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wannabefaster wrote:
DomerTriGuy wrote:
SBRcoffee wrote:
Tricoastal wrote:
....Are athletes expected to test every single supplement they take? The manufacturer of the supplement screwed up, not the athlete.


Yes.
Not saying that is easy or necessarily right, but athletes are responsible for -everything- they put in their bodies.

If I were an athlete in this circumstance, and I without a doubt was able to prove it was a contaminated supplement, I'd sure consider suing the manufacturer!

I don't even have a sense how expensive or feasible this would be to test everything before you take it. You can't even just test the product, you would have to test each tablet, packet, gel, etc. since a specific lot could be contaminated. Is a home test for all banned substances available, affordable, and could return results fast enough to take what you just tested before it goes bad since it could be perishable?


This loops back around to what some people have already said; that using "supplements" is flirting with disaster. And lets face it, most people that are using supplements are looking for performance benefits/advantages over their competition. Legally, yes, but still, that is the whole point of putting these supplements in to your body. Hopefully everything in them is above board and maybe you eke out a 0.5% performance gain, but you must acknowledge the risk that a supplement contains undisclosed stuff that could result in a positive test. Safer to avoid supplements altogether.

What to do? Food. Balanced diet. I do use gels (Powerbar gels are my favorite) and sports drink (Infinit, UCan and Gatorade). Fairly reputable companies that I have to trust are keeping everything on the up and up. If I ever test positive for something (and I dream of being fast enough to be worth testing), I'll at least know where to start looking.

How is using gels and Infinit any different than taking a salt tab? Doesn't infinit contain the same ingredients as most salt tabs? If you are going to condemn people for looking for advantages over their competition (which by your language infers that it is somehow immoral or unfair let legal) and flirting with disaster by taking salt tabs and then in the next paragraph you say you just eat food... oh and infinit and gels... what point are you trying to make?

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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
wannabefaster wrote:
DomerTriGuy wrote:
SBRcoffee wrote:
Tricoastal wrote:
....Are athletes expected to test every single supplement they take? The manufacturer of the supplement screwed up, not the athlete.


Yes.
Not saying that is easy or necessarily right, but athletes are responsible for -everything- they put in their bodies.

If I were an athlete in this circumstance, and I without a doubt was able to prove it was a contaminated supplement, I'd sure consider suing the manufacturer!

I don't even have a sense how expensive or feasible this would be to test everything before you take it. You can't even just test the product, you would have to test each tablet, packet, gel, etc. since a specific lot could be contaminated. Is a home test for all banned substances available, affordable, and could return results fast enough to take what you just tested before it goes bad since it could be perishable?


This loops back around to what some people have already said; that using "supplements" is flirting with disaster. And lets face it, most people that are using supplements are looking for performance benefits/advantages over their competition. Legally, yes, but still, that is the whole point of putting these supplements in to your body. Hopefully everything in them is above board and maybe you eke out a 0.5% performance gain, but you must acknowledge the risk that a supplement contains undisclosed stuff that could result in a positive test. Safer to avoid supplements altogether.

What to do? Food. Balanced diet. I do use gels (Powerbar gels are my favorite) and sports drink (Infinit, UCan and Gatorade). Fairly reputable companies that I have to trust are keeping everything on the up and up. If I ever test positive for something (and I dream of being fast enough to be worth testing), I'll at least know where to start looking.


How is using gels and Infinit any different than taking a salt tab? Doesn't infinit contain the same ingredients as most salt tabs? If you are going to condemn people for looking for advantages over their competition (which by your language infers that it is somehow immoral or unfair let legal) and flirting with disaster by taking salt tabs and then in the next paragraph you say you just eat food... oh and infinit and gels... what point are you trying to make?

Did you miss what he said in the bolded print above? He's implying its still a risk, he's putting some trust in the companies that so far have a good track record of not making athletes test positive.
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
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Nope, its mostly been tubulars vs clinchers. :)
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [scott8888] [ In reply to ]
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scott8888 wrote:
I have no doubt that the athletes didn't know they were taking tainted substances but I seriously doubt the substance became 'incident contaminated' of 'cross contaminated' due to poor manufacturing practices. I think this distinction is really important for athletes to understand when it comes to the risk of taking supplements.

As an analytic chemist with some experience studying bioactive compounds I am VERY skeptical about banned substances ending up in products at concentrations which trigger a fail test. Every drug testing protocol has its own built in error limits such that it takes a pretty preposterous chain of events to transfer enough of a substance like ostarine into a salt tablet for an athlete to then test positive. It is far more likely these PEDs are intentionally put into products by the manufacturers or suppliers (in secret so consumers are none the wiser) so that the products have a clear performance enhancing edge. I will try and dig out an article from a few years ago which reported just how rampant this issue was with producers adding steroids to creatine powder. The issue wasn't just a matter of a rouge company but of the labs which produce products (then sold by many companies) trying to increase the total market usage by creating products with clear performance enhancing business.

In summary I think there needs to more recognition that their is a nefarious side to sports supplement production and athletes are pawns in the game rather than victims of an unfortunate accident. This doesn't make the athletes who were caught deserve their punishment, and as a whole I think the community needs to push back against the industry.


This makes sense and you have credibility. More people should listen to
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [SBRcoffee] [ In reply to ]
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SBRcoffee wrote:
scott8888 wrote:
...
This doesn't make the athletes who were caught deserve their punishment, and as a whole I think the community needs to push back against the industry.


Agree, but how to regulate that fairly. Again, athletes could easily 'spike' their own supplements, etc. And in cases of genuine fault of the manufacturer, will it make the other athletes that maybe missed out on podium and prize money because they were beat by someone that had pharmaceutical assistance, feel better? Maybe, i dunno..

The "spike your own supplement" thing is not quite so simple. This is an obvious approach, and you'll note that in Lauren's case, they were able to confirm it NOT ONLY in the bottle she had BUT ALSO in a second bottle FROM THE SAME LOT.

The idea that you can just present a bottle with traces of X and say, "oh, my supplement was tainted!" is an oversimplification. And, of course, it's also limited to certain substances which can be ingested. No way, for example, EPO is coming from a salt pill.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [Tricoastal] [ In reply to ]
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No way Lauren took it knowingly. It's retroactive for just 6 months and she just announced she's pregnant so it won't affect her future racing. If the supplement was contaminated and she had no clue, should she still even have the 6 month retroactive suspension? Are athletes expected to test every single supplement they take? The manufacturer of the supplement screwed up, not the athlete.


This is the challenge with this. I WANT to believe these athletes. They seem to have plausible reasons for the positive tests. But these are the SAME stories, explanation and defenses that truly dirty, athletes caught doping who have knowingly used PED's, concoct. So you really don't know who's telling the truth here other than going with your gut!

On the supplements business in general - for the most part it's completely un-regulated with no standards. Yes - many companies go on and on about how clean they are (I'd REALLY like to believe them) . . but - just read over my first paragraph. That's the reason that, when you are at the elite/pro national team level in most sports, and you are in your Federation's testing pool, they give you this massive book the size of the Bible, with all the things you SHOULD NOT take. In short, they tell you, don't take anything!*

I'm still not 100% clear with these athletes who are focusing exclusively on WTC/IRONMAN races if the protocols, process and procedures are the same as those athletes who are part of national federation testing pools. Can someone enlighten me, please?

*This is why, if you tested the whole field at Ironman Hawaii unannounced, you would get a surprising number of positive tests among age-groupers - almost all of them like the Barnett/Gerdes situation - unintentional/inadvertent. Many age-group triathletes pop all manner of vitamin pills, and supplements of all kinds like candy! This is also why really wide-spread testing of age-group athletes has it's challenges.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Feb 4, 17 11:15
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
*This is why, if you tested the whole field at Ironman Hawaii unannounced, you would get a surprising number of positive tests among age-groupers - almost all of them like the Barnett/Gerdes situation - unintentional/inadvertent.
This.
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
wannabefaster wrote:
DomerTriGuy wrote:
SBRcoffee wrote:
Tricoastal wrote:
....Are athletes expected to test every single supplement they take? The manufacturer of the supplement screwed up, not the athlete.


Yes.
Not saying that is easy or necessarily right, but athletes are responsible for -everything- they put in their bodies.

If I were an athlete in this circumstance, and I without a doubt was able to prove it was a contaminated supplement, I'd sure consider suing the manufacturer!

I don't even have a sense how expensive or feasible this would be to test everything before you take it. You can't even just test the product, you would have to test each tablet, packet, gel, etc. since a specific lot could be contaminated. Is a home test for all banned substances available, affordable, and could return results fast enough to take what you just tested before it goes bad since it could be perishable?


This loops back around to what some people have already said; that using "supplements" is flirting with disaster. And lets face it, most people that are using supplements are looking for performance benefits/advantages over their competition. Legally, yes, but still, that is the whole point of putting these supplements in to your body. Hopefully everything in them is above board and maybe you eke out a 0.5% performance gain, but you must acknowledge the risk that a supplement contains undisclosed stuff that could result in a positive test. Safer to avoid supplements altogether.

What to do? Food. Balanced diet. I do use gels (Powerbar gels are my favorite) and sports drink (Infinit, UCan and Gatorade). Fairly reputable companies that I have to trust are keeping everything on the up and up. If I ever test positive for something (and I dream of being fast enough to be worth testing), I'll at least know where to start looking.


How is using gels and Infinit any different than taking a salt tab? Doesn't infinit contain the same ingredients as most salt tabs? If you are going to condemn people for looking for advantages over their competition (which by your language infers that it is somehow immoral or unfair let legal) and flirting with disaster by taking salt tabs and then in the next paragraph you say you just eat food... oh and infinit and gels... what point are you trying to make?


Maybe my point, in retrospect, is that we are all fucked.

ETA. My other point, not necessarily related to these two athletes, is that if you are taking Super"T"CyberGeni-Platinum/Carbon-Endurance Booster that you ordered because someone said that it would make you faster...... it wouldn't be that shocking if there were undisclosed ingredients. Caveat emptor.

ps. I think salt tabs are mostly voodoo.

----------------------------
Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.
Last edited by: wannabefaster: Feb 4, 17 11:39
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
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The GMAN wrote:
I haven't read one single post in this thread yet beyond Bryan's first post/link.

I'd be willing to bet there's several posts by people saying Gerdes and Barnett did not knowingly cheat because they're such nice people, several people calling bullshit on that, and several posts about how supplements get contaminated in the manufacturing process.

How did I do?

You're like the kid in class that comes late and just regurgitates everything that that had been covered in the lesson for the last 30 minutes just to show how smart they are to everyone else and to waste everyone's time.

How did I do?
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Perhaps it is time to make these companies put on their labels that this product is made in the same facility which manufactures banned substances (or something that sounds better).
When i buy stuff I am vigilant about checking whether the product was made in a facility which also processes tree nuts. I have to be otherwise my son would likely die. Personally, if there is anything in a product I am ingesting that isn't on the ingredient list, I would lose it on that company.
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [DomerTriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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DomerTriGuy wrote:
Fleck wrote:

*This is why, if you tested the whole field at Ironman Hawaii unannounced, you would get a surprising number of positive tests among age-groupers - almost all of them like the Barnett/Gerdes situation - unintentional/inadvertent.

This.

almost all unintentional/inadvertent, no way, just the other way around.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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almost all unintentional/inadvertent, no way, just the other way around.


Dave,

I was being a bit kinder and just giving people the benefit of the doubt!

I know the way keen AG triathletes are. Tell then that anything will make them 10% faster/better, and, they are lined up to buy 3-boxes each! So yes, unintentional/inadvertent via gullibility and ignorance!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Feb 4, 17 11:52
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [M~] [ In reply to ]
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M~ wrote:
The GMAN wrote:
I haven't read one single post in this thread yet beyond Bryan's first post/link.

I'd be willing to bet there's several posts by people saying Gerdes and Barnett did not knowingly cheat because they're such nice people, several people calling bullshit on that, and several posts about how supplements get contaminated in the manufacturing process.

How did I do?


You're like the kid in class that comes late and just regurgitates everything that that had been covered in the lesson for the last 30 minutes just to show how smart they are to everyone else and to waste everyone's time.

How did I do?

Nope. Not my style. 1) I wouldn't be late, and 2) I was never one to speak up in class unless directly asked to do so. Tests and homework did the talking for me. ;-)

These caught doping threads are just extremely predictable. Now that I read the comments I was pretty much spot on, although less calling of bullshit on their innocence as I would've thought.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
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Any recommendations for a salt tab company that is known for doing everything possible to make a clean product? I'd been using the Base Performance salt, but now looking at their website I see there's really nothing at all about testing/product purity.
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [avatar78] [ In reply to ]
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avatar78 wrote:
Any recommendations for a salt tab company that is known for doing everything possible to make a clean product? I'd been using the Base Performance salt, but now looking at their website I see there's really nothing at all about testing/product purity.


I use this stuff:

http://highfive.co.uk/


They even have a statement about being Drug-Free http://highfive.co.uk/drugs-free/


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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [avatar78] [ In reply to ]
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avatar78 wrote:
Any recommendations for a salt tab company that is known for doing everything possible to make a clean product?

do not read post #11 of this thread. whatever you do, ignore that post!

but if you simply do not ignore it and, against my warning and wisdom, you read that post anyway and (even worse!) follow the link from that post, do not draw any conclusions about the author of that article! and about the product he makes!

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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The one thing that stands out to me still is the fact that it's only been female athletes that have tested positive. If there is widespread contamination, then why haven't others, and males, been caught? Is it a drug that would be more beneficial for females? I'm asking. I don't know.

https://twitter.com/mungub
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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i come here to chime in with conspiracy theory. beth was one of advocates for the 50/50 pro kona campaign. could it be some sort of sabotage ? its real hard when you factor in her race schedule just to toe the line at kona, taking 5 or so races it is barely enough time to research everything you take (beyond what the label says) as an international competitor who travels to race for long distance events.

then again flip side of the coin doing that many races may need a boost.

very interesting to what happens next.... can the athlete take the supplement maker to court?
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [mungub50] [ In reply to ]
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mungub50 wrote:
The one thing that stands out to me still is the fact that it's only been female athletes that have tested positive. If there is widespread contamination, then why haven't others, and males, been caught? Is it a drug that would be more beneficial for females? I'm asking. I don't know.

I did a quick search on this last night. According to some of the various bodybuilding forums, yes, SARMs as a group are more beneficial to women than to men. Which would make sense to me given my layman's understanding of genetics and biology. And also what's been reported about, for example, the relative levels of testosterone among elite female athletes vs the general population.

Speaking very generally, the range of "normal" testosterone levels for women is much broader than it is for men. For obvious reasons. So, given that, you'd expect that use of androgenic hormones would make a bigger impact on females. You saw this with the East Germans. The impact of doping on those women was much more performance enhancing as compared to the men. Making a woman "like a man" is much more of a change than making a man "more manly."

As far as females testing positive, female athletes are generally lighter than male athletes, so if we're talking about the same number of salt pills, you can easily see where a 120lb female could be over a certain threshold than a 170lb male would be under. That's the "optimistic" view.

If you look at ostarine sanctions more generally - outside of triathlon - it seems to be more men than women: http://www.usada.org/...g/results/sanctions/

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Two pro women receive doping bans [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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"It wasn't me" ST happy to take this defence from American athletes, but everyone else needs to be rubbed out the sport. Assuming that the tabs were not exclusively made for the two athletes why are there not more positives.
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