Understood, but that's the same way some of the most effective PEDs work too.

Your description fits almost every PED on Wada's banned list.

I see Optygen as one of those grey-area supplements that is just a slippery slope away from banned substances. I think it's against the principles of clean sport to use it.

You might argue, "Then we should also ban caffeine." And I would respond, "When 80% of americans start pouring themselves a cup of Optygen in the morning, I'll be fine with athletes taking it to improve their performance. Until then, I think it's unethical and should be banned."

I've sat on a number of court martials from my time in the military and I recall one drug case where the accused claims someone spiked his drink at a bar with cocaine. I.e., the accused was not contesting a positive drug test, but giving an alibi for it. Among other instructions to the panel, we were told that in weighing the evidence and claims of the accused, we could use our best judgement gained from life experience to determine the truthfulness of the witness. Based on that experience, senior officers on the panel including myself voted guilty, but the accused airman was acquitted by the junior officers on the panel. The wing JAG lived near me and I stopped by his house on the way home that evening to inquire about the airman's personnel folder ... whether this was an isolated instance or he was a problem child. Answer - he was a first class dirt bag but that past is inadmissible in court.

While admitting the mere plausibility of truthfulness in the triathlon examples, life experience tells me that the 'stories' presented by these women fit a long and continuing pattern followed by dopers. The drug test is accepted, but there is always some reason why the athletes inadvertent ingested it. And the fact that livelihood's are at stake on performance outcomes for pros gives strong basis for motive. Again, it doesn't mean these ladies intentionally used Ostarine, but I would put high odds (fairly or unfairly) that was the case.

Not preposterous at all. As I have read through this thread the last few days and given it thought, I had come to the same conclusions. Find a product that is already contaminated with ostarine, don't ever take that product but keep a couple bottles of it aside. Start doping with ostarine and hope I don't get tested. If I do, I have my alibi of contaminated pills that I know will test positive. I also agree this isn't that devious of a plan.

The one thing that makes it hard for me to accept these women pros excuses is that this seems to be the perfect PED for them to be taking. I don't think that is just a coincidence.

I have to confess I'm not reading 11pages of this stuff, I just don't care that much. But I can't help wondering, has anyone every shown a supplement was genuinely "contaminated" with something as shady and obscure as this outside of a doping defense?
I just can't see what's in it for a supp manufacturer lacing their product with what must surely be a sub therapeutic dose of a chemical which isn't free and when the consumer couldn't possibly attribute the associated performance enhancement to their product, they are no more likely to be a repeat customer. Maybe with some kind of illicit stimulant that's gives an instant and attributable 'hit' but not something more long term. I just can't see it

This kind of reminds me of the stories you hear on the news about when people order the 'extra crispy' french fries at McDonalds and end up with a cup full of marijuana. I am not sure how many of you have been to the trade shows where they market these products but it would not be unheard of for someone to advertise to athletes they can make a special batch for them.

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It's not a coincidence. If supplement contamination was such as big problem in triathlon, more people would be testing positive for banned substances and it wouldn't just be women and Ostarine.

Unless of course lots of cases are sort of swept under the rug.

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I simply wonder if the ostarine levels in the unopened bottle that was tested were at levels high enough to trigger a positive test? If it was me, I would camp out at the testing agency for a week eating nothing but bland pasta noodles, drinking distilled water and pounding that bottle of salt pills so I that I could get re-tested and prove that tainted salt pills were, in fact, the culprit.

That was the question I posed and a couple of people in this thread (who seem somewhat knowledgeable) pretty much said it wouldn't trigger a positive test. So basically anyone testing positive for this were doing so purposefully and willingly, i.e. they were cheating.

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Or at least the ones claiming they're knowledgeable.

It can still be performance enhancing without being banned. Science is ahead of wada. Not to say that 1/some of the Ingredients may not be banned in the future. If they are herbal they are harder to regulate but can still be very potent and if so eventually may be banned. Has happened before. If some of the non Performance enhancing chemicals which make up a certain plant species are isolated occasionally a chemical that has benefit can be found. Concentrate it and put it in your product and call it natural , plant based and ppl assume it's safe to take, until it triggers a positive and they realise that lovely plant has the same chemical make up as a banned PED, may even be where it comes from in the first place.

The point of anti-doping is not just to prevent cheating but to prevent the abuse of our talented athletes. In the past the lives of athletes were shortened and their health damaged by unscrupulous coaches etc who forced drug and substance use on their athletes. Just because a herb is not banned does not make it safe to use.
This company did a very good job of proving the performance enhancing abilities of Optygen, but where is its safety studies?
I agree that there is no difference between using a banned known PED and a non banned known PED.
Why risk your long term health taking untested plant extracts. No one would just walk out into the bush and assume all plants are safe, why do they allow marketers to make you believe the opposite.
Elite athletes are national treasures and IMHO we need to address safety testing of the supplement industry. Athletes go looking for help with cramping or exhaustion and are offered a range of really quite dodgy products.
pS I have worked all my life in analytical chemistry including doping testing and drug and natural medicine safety testing

So beth is out of IM, but doing challenge wanaka this weekend. so is there any control going on at challenge series? perhaps different rules, and they probably believe her case

I thought she was pregnant? Is it safe to "race" while pregnant? I have no idea honestly. Maybe she's just going to take it easy.

She's not doing wanaka. Luke is.

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blog

Is it safe to "race" while pregnant?
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Yes. Lots of women have done it with no harm to themselves nor their babies. The risk is in crashing, which I imagine is far less in racing than in driving around town.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
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I agree. A few days ago on twitter I asked First Endurance about the shadiness of marketing it as a PED (yes, I know that twitter isn't the place for detailed discussion, but someone else just given a shout-out to the company as being ultra-clean, and I thought that was, at best, nonsense).

You can find the conversation on my twitter if you want, but their basic response was that they consider Optygen a "health restorer," bringing people back to a healthy condition after they've trained too hard. I asked if was then like taking testosterone (bringing people back to "healthy" levels), and they said yes, except injecting testosterone is illegal.

I said I didn't think it was in the spirit of fair competition to take a drug to boost VO2, and they countered that taking carbs and taking iron isn't banned, so Optygen shouldn't be banned either. Which was possibly the most ridiculous thing I've ever read, considering that if athletes didn't ingest carbs or iron they would literally die. I suspect nobody has ever died from not taking Optygen.

Anyway, I understand their perspective, but I don't quite know why it's not banned. I assume it's either because:
a) It actually doesn't work; or,
b) There's no blood/urine test for the active ingredients.

Whichever the reason, my biggest problem with it is the marketing--it's the same type of claims you see from many of the banned substances. And the fact that well-respected pro's advertise for First Endurance gives that type of marketing credibility in the eyes of age-groupers, and I think that is terrible for the health and safety of impressionable athletes who may end up taking all sorts of shady "performance boosters" because they see their favorite pro's supporting a company that makes a similarly marketed product.

Okay, tried to answer many of the questions in this thread here: http://www.slowtwitch.com/...sing_AAFs__6214.html

- steps to show contaminated supplement actually caused an AAF
- why the various scenarios about athletes doping and then blaming it on a supplement don't hold water
- why you can actually put some faith in reduced sanctions when they are given
- and some more.

But the bottom line is this, given the numerous options out there for safe, reliable products, no athlete should get an AAF for a contaminated supplement if they are diligent in researching what they are taking.

Oh, and these articles are already too long, but to give some clarity, as of today, this is the list of all 37 supplements and their manufacturers on the Supplement411.org HRL that would be considered "contaminated," meaning that they don't list a prohibited substance on the label (or didn't at the time they were put on the HRL). You decide how much sympathy you have for someone who takes a product like this:

Neurolytes Classified Nutrition
K4 TriPharm
EPH 100 Hard Rock Supplements
HGH X Black Dragon Labs
SRM-YK11-LGD-4033 Pure Growth Blend Xcel Sports Nutrition
Reaper DNA Resurrection Xcel Sports Nutrition
Ar1macare Pro Olympus Labs
3-Test-OXO Complete Nutrition
Geeked IP Pharma
Infrared Gold Star Performance
Shred RX Gold Star Performance
Triple X Gold Star Performance
Methyl 1-3 Epic Labs
Swag Shot Celtic Labs
1024 Achievement Through Science (ATS) Labs
Hysteria NuBreed Nutrition
Heliotropin NuBreed Nutrition
Xtreme Mass Fusion Supplements / Predator Nutrition
Mesomorph 2.0 APS Nutrition
Green Stinger Schwartz Labs
Andro-Lean Stack Advanced Muscle Science
VitaminZ Beyond Genetics Supplements
TriAdalean Covaxil Laborotories
Natural Strength Advanced Anabolic Technologies Xcel Sports Nutrition
Diezel Beyond Genetics Supplements
Detonate Gaspari Nutrition
Alpha-1 Shredded Labs
ABSolute Fuel BioScience Institute Inc
Thermal XTC Nutrabolics
Storm X-Pro Xcel Sports Nutrition
PR-XT Advanced Man Sports
Epic Liquid Pre-Workout LG Sciences
Chainsaw vigor Labs
Natadrol LG Sciences
ISA-Test iSatori
Hydravax Metabolic Nutrition
DecaSARM RDe Chrome Advanced Muscle Science

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

It's a sad state of affairs when consumers can't trust products with names that include Reaper, Hysteria, Diezel, Detonate, Chainsaw,......and Classified.......to actually contain only what is on their labels. Enjoy your Swag Shots during training, everyone.

Haha. My favorite was HGH X Black Dragon labs. How many warning signs can a single name give?

Quick question: Which one of those supplements has the most lightening bolts on the label?

Quote:

FYI, don't take anything that 1) promises to make you "Hard As a Motherf***er"

So... no more Viagra???

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This doesn't answer your question, but a jury or peers were convinced that swimmer Kicker Vencill was legitimately the victim of a contaminated supplement. And everyone who knew him, including many Olympians was convinced of his innocence.

But this was 2003. Interesting the resources available to athletes now to avoid accidental contamination is much greater than it was in 2003, but Vencill was unable to get his ban reduced despite overwhelming evidence. ThanksObama.

Bingo