Perhaps the "athletic supporter"? They didn't use them in Greece in the original Olympic games. The first ones were thought not to be effective because there were no double blind studies that proved it beyond a doubt.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

I have had a few speed skaters use them but the results have been mildly positive but disappointing from my viewpoint. My sample is small however. The one I am thinkig about was primarily a Danish speedskater and there was no cross over.

After I got my running review by Aaron Thigpen I asked him to look at what Aaron said to see why he thought Aaron saw pretty good benefits to runners and his observations were less dramatic as I would have expected them to be similar. I think it went to the skating motion is more technical and almost all propulsive power comes from the quads. Heel lift, etc. is not very important as it is in running. What the XC skiiers have told me is the improvement they see in their skiing is primarily in hill climbing. since hill climbing doesn't occur in speed skating perhaps that is why any HF aerobic improvement PC's might cause is hard to see.

I don't remember asking him how his transition to PC's went. Maybe I will go back and ask now that this correlation has been made, if I can remember who it was now.

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Hear Miss America swears by 'em too.

She thinks religious use of PC's will help her some day find a cure for Aids and lead to lasting peace throughout the world...

Actually in the 1984 Olympic Games, Steve Bauer had a "Super domestique named Pierre Harvey". Legend has it that Pierre towed Steve around all day, setting hip up favourably for the eventual showdown with Alexi Grewal (that Bauer lost). Pierre harvey is on of Canada's few winter and summer Olympians. He competed in the cycling 100K Team Time trial (as a 19 year old) at the Montreal Olympics in 1976 and the road race at 84 in LA. Pierre was also a top XC skier, winning several world cups in the 80's even when the Russians were totally doped out. Pierre raced for Canada at Sarajevo and the Calgary Olympics. I believe his best Olympic result was 7th in the 50K.



Carl Swenson is a total stud by the way !



Finally, I am the fellow that Frank was referring to above. I just got the PC's and I am hoping that they have a positive impact for me at Ironman USA and Boston Marathon (in 3 weeks ...YIKES). I have posted a number of questions for experienced users on another thread in this forum.

thanks

Just by way of history, there were a few notable speedskating/cycling crossovers in the 80s. Such as Eric and Beth Heiden, Mary and Sarah Doctor, Connie Paraskevins (spelling)

Beth also went on to compete at the NCAA level in XC skiing but I am not sure of the level of success. Connie Carpenter had rowing in her background.

Greg Lemond was way into XC skiing as his off-season training while he wintered here in Minnesota, usually to the extent that he had to drop muscle mass off his upper body before he rounded into cycling form.

ars

>2. Has there ever before been any new sports
>product as controversial as PC's?

I hope you're being tongue-in-cheek here. While I enjoy the PC flamewars on slowtwitch as much as the next guy, it's a bit of a tempest in a teapot, isn't it?

Some sports products that spring to mind as (maybe) being even more controversial than PCs:

helmets (pick any sport that uses them)
artificial turf
aluminum bats
oversized drivers
gears
non-wooden/oversized tennis rackets
stickum (sp?)
anabolic steroids
wetsuits
snowboards
HED Ben-Hur Limited Edition Spikey Discs of Death

those are way more controversial. thanks. It just seems that any thread with PC in it tends to get emotional and off course very quickly.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

There's a current Canadian woman (her name slips my mind), who is Olypic quality in both cycling and speed skating.

>It just seems that any thread with PC in it tends to get
>emotional and off course very quickly.

True. As someone who's PCically neutral, I honestly enjoy the calmer aspects of the debates, but I admit I don't quite understand why emotions so often run so high on the topic.

"2. Has there ever before been any new sports product as controversial as PC's? "

3. has there every before been any sports product, new or old, as heavily promoted by its owner? perhaps just a little less here on this forum would be a good thing. not entirely gone, mind you, just a bit toned down.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Clara Hughes is that CAnadian women who was in both the winter and summer olympics

 

2. Has there ever before been any new sports product as controversial as PC's?

Frank





Cyclingnews will be giving a reliable report on PC's
after some months of testing. It should be very
interesting.

The guy who is doing the review (Ben Larsen) is also a triathlete so there should be some comments regarding the running improvement in his review. He is also the same person who reviewed the Rotor Crank, so that should be interesting. He agreed to use them exclusively, at least until the review came out, so I am waiting like everyone else.

At some time maybe he will be a good person to say whether PC trained people can further benefit from using Rotor cranks (if he still has them after PC adaptation and can go back).

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

I have been wondering when #3 was going to come up. Gerard pays for his promotions and still doesn't use the free forum to his advantage.
This may be the reason I haven't tried PCs even though I need the run help.

Bob Sigerson

Being old, perhaps, I can restate Slowman's message so as to be more explicit but still not evoke any hard feelings.

This is for Frank. I enjoy your input on this forum. You certainly have a depth and breadth of knowledge that is valuable to the readers. But (the inevitable but) I believe that your product and this forum would be better served if you assumed a lower profile. The problem is that you have an undeniable conflict of interest whenever PCs are discussed. No matter what you do, for many readers, that will diminish the value of what you say. No matter how objective or how correct it is. This old man's advice would be to stay much further in the background. Allow entire PC treads to unwind without any Frank Day input. Let the PC users express their views. Let them hang out there all alone even when you can see ways of correcting or amplifying what they say.

It seems to me that Dan has quietly and unobtrusively asked you not to be quite so blatant about contributions that could, just out of shear quantity, be interpreted has USING SLOWTWITCH TO SELL a product.

I have grown to respect Dan's restraint in censoring what is posted in this forum. It promotes a wide range of views, topics, and discourse. But I also respect the need to exercise a modecum of control, and one area is where posters appear to be using slowtwitch for self promotion. I hope you thoughtfully read Dan's post again, above in this tread.

You have an outstanding product, let its record do the talking.
Bill

As a pc user, I am always interested in the threads about pc's, and enjoy Frank's input. Sure, he's an interested party, but he also knows more about them than anyone else. I have also seen him repeatedly advocate positions that practically guarantee reduced sales (e.g., exclusive use), because he states what he believes--regardless of the cost. This says a lot about his character. I don't think he's trying to overuse the forum to sell pc's, he's just excited as a kid at Christmas about his product and knows he has a number of willing listeners on this forum. However, it is clear that some get bent out of shape about his excuberance, and that is perhaps understandable. A good solution would be for Frank to put a forum on his website where he can post and answer questions about pc's without overloading the sensibilities of our beloved slowtwitch host, and others. Heck, if I wasn't a pc user myself, I'd probably be sick of all the pc threads. The thing is, once you've used them for awhile, it's pretty facinating what they do to your riding and running, and it's just plain fun to talk about it, but I digress. Frank, get thee some software and start a forum.

Thanks for the input Bill,

My problem is this. I try to stay in the background but many times people are asking for my explicit opinion, knowing that I am here. Further, there is not a wide breadth of experience with these things such that, when someone puts out a "what should I expect" question, I am the one person who has received the input from many over many years and best positioned to give good advice. So it is hard for me to sit by and let bad advice be given, especially since I was asked by some owners to come by and put in my opinions (and I get quite a bit of feedback that it is valued, at least by some).

If it were not for the likes of Mr. Not (and others who seem to have slowly disappeared) these PC threads would not be any more controversial (or longer) than most other threads. If this is truly a "marketing campaign" I am conducting it would seem to me to be a very complicated stealth compaign requiring me to have hired Mr. Not (and a few others) to be a contrarian and hire some other "users" to come in and claim results that correspond to my claims. Instead, a simple posting of an observation thread by yourself that also touted another product is now almost 80 messages long and is seen as a PC marketing campaign on my part. And ktalon's recent post got to over 200 responses.

An awful lot of people at this site already own a pair, those who don't own a pair either don't because they can't afford them or don't want to because I am so obnoxious, and I (and others) can't even get a pair in Mr. Not's hands for free. Just who am I marketing to again? I don't even know who my competition is as I think PC's enhance everybody elses product and there is no similar product.

I feel I am in a catch 22 situation but I will try to ignore posts in the future that have to do with PC's unless someone asks me to contribute. I will still join other threads without shame if I feel I have something positive to contribute.

Frank

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

You're a good man, Charlie Brown!

However, I think I will direct more of my comments and questions directly to you instead of just posting them on the forum. I must admit, I did get a little kick out of putting up significant performance gains that even exceeded my "obviously overconfident" (as one person classified them) racing predictions.

Like many people, when I'm told I can't possibly do something (such as improve so quickly and significantly), and then I do it, it encourages me to hoist the results up a flagpole. I received many personal messages telling me I wouldn't perform well at all, and one predicted I would actually DNF out of embarrasment of doing so poorly.

If I had reported the results solely, and only, as encouragement to those that had helped me and were rooting for me, I wouldn't feel bad. Still, I don't consider it very sporting of me for taking the opportunity to rub it in, even if they (you people know who you are!) deserved it. No one has complained I was waving it in their face, I just know I had a grin on my face thinking of them reading the results. That leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I doubt those people that said they wanted to see me fail would feel that way if they actually knew me in person...unless, perhaps, they are in my AG!

So, I'm posting on PCs less, but will still do so from time to time, and I will still seek out any good information as to how they achieve the results they do, so that I can have a better chance at maximizing my training techniques in order to develop all the speed I can for a middle-aged man.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

Before you stop replying Frank perhaps you will
answer this question. I still believe that the only
advantage to be gained from PC's is that of
offloading the weight from the pedal. Suppose that
the only chain drive power that could be applied by
the cranks was that of the PC's pulling up with the
main power pedal sector in neutral, how far would PC
power take you up a very slight hill. When you are
using PC power only, you can give it your full
concentration but when both pedals are in use, your
concentration will be divided so PC power will be even
less than that of PC use only.

May I butt in before Frank gives his more qualified answers?

I see that: increases in drivetrain power from simply unweighting the rising crank/foot/leg result in real increases in speed. In fact, just decreasing some of this 'negative' weight will increase speed.

Pulling up more than the combined weight of the crank/foot/leg would result in even more real increases in speed. How much will this total speed increase be? Unknown, and individualized. Perhaps by having a tool that allows one to practice this movement will result in speed increases that dazzle, or perhaps it will be minimal. It depends on the individual.

Personally, I can pull up more now than I used to, and it shows in speed. I still tire out and need to rest those hip flexors, and when I have regular cranks on, that's no problem. I just give my rising leg a free ride from my pushing down leg, like many people pedal. After about 30 seconds to a minute, when my hip flexors have recovered, I begin picking up that rising crank/foot/leg and guess what happens? My speed increases some. How much? Depends upon the grade, headwind, etc. If I pick up more vigorously, my speed increases more. Until, alas, my hip flexors need that rest, at which point I slow down, although I am pushing down just as hard, if not harder, which shows me that using hip flexors increases my efficiency.

As far as using PC power only vs PC power and pushing down...believe it or not, but that is how I started out on the trainer...I felt like I wasn't able to push down at all...just the speed imparted to the crank from the weight of letting the leg fall would exceed the rate at which I could raise the rising leg, unless you ride in big gears to slow the pushing leg down.

As far as splitting my concentration between legs, I really don't have to think about it that hard. It becomes a natural thing to do, just like pedalling or running. I don't think about each leg individually, I just think pedal harder or faster, run faster, etc., there is no "left-right-left-left-no waitaminute I meant right!" thinking going on. EXCEPT when my hip flexors fatigue...THEN I find myself individually instructing those muscles to "Pick up! I said PICK UP!" At this point, my speed begins to slow.

This is the reason I don't ride regular cranks much at all. I want to force myself to work those fatiguing hip flexors even when I don't feel like working them. But, for racing, at this point in my adaptation period, I race on regular cranks so that I can turn on and turn off the hip flexors if need be. I hope to be able to go to only PCs in the future, but, that is up to how much I am willing and able to work on them. I'm certainly willing, and I believe I will be able.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

I already know all of what you have explained but
you did not answer my question. How far could you
travel using PC power only with the power pedal in
neutral gear between 1 and 5 o'clock. Having made
a simple pull exerciser, I have found that pulling up
power is very limited, after the first 20 or 30
continuous pull-ups your pulling up muscles just
tire too easily and you have to quit. A small piece
of timber and less than 2 ft of elastic is all it takes to prove this.

Now I have a problem with this.

If you want Frank to not post on PC's so much maybe the people who take potshots at them without ever riding them should also not post so much.

By the way Frank, I was 22 minutes faster at Powerman AL this year, 15 on the bike and 7 combined for the two runs. But then I may be mistaken and the improvements could all be in my head.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.