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Re: Two ironmans messed up by SRAM Etap in less than one month. BEWARE! [Nolegs] [ In reply to ]
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Nolegs wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Yes, agreed about the rate of failure.

However, the failure modes of electronic shifting is, unfortunately, another issue entirely.


Totally agree. Sort of reminds be back in the late 70's when GM switched their distributor from mechanical points and rotor to HEI. I thought, holy crap, how the heck do I work on this now? I'm not an electronic engineer. Guess what? This new electronic distributor completely blew away the older mechanical one.

Fast forward to today. Deja vu all over again. Don't fight the progress. Embrace it.

It's funny, because as an IT guy, my comfort level goes;

electronic
mechanical
hydraulic

I'd much rather troubleshoot electronics than try to do tension perfectly, nevermind flushing hydraulic fluid...

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: Two ironmans messed up by SRAM Etap in less than one month. BEWARE! [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Yes, agreed about the rate of failure.

However, the failure modes of electronic shifting is, unfortunately, another issue entirely.
That is often overlooked. This topic is a perfect example. Dude's has had shifting problems for months and he can't figure out why. With mech finding out what's wrong is dead-simple.

Other slowtwitchers have posted similar questions. "Help e shifting is broken and I can't figure out why!" The intermittent problems are the worst. When was the last time a mech group did that? Worked, then didn't, then worked again, on and off? Never?
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Re: Two ironmans messed up by SRAM Etap in less than one month. BEWARE! [Toby] [ In reply to ]
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Toby wrote:
I'd much rather troubleshoot electronics than try to do tension perfectly, nevermind flushing hydraulic fluid...


Of course, in a shop with the right equipment, troubleshooting electronics should be a cinch (well, ... emphasis on the "should be").

But in flight at 10,000 ft while losing altitude with an engine failure?
Or 60 miles out on a race course with 50 miles to go and people passing you while you're stuck in just one gear?

Uh, not so much ...

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

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Last edited by: DarkSpeedWorks: Nov 15, 17 11:15
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Re: Two ironmans messed up by SRAM Etap in less than one month. BEWARE! [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Toby wrote:
I'd much rather troubleshoot electronics than try to do tension perfectly, nevermind flushing hydraulic fluid...


Of course, in a shop with the right equipment, troubleshooting electronics should be a cinch (well, ... emphasis on the "should be").

But in flight at 10,000 ft while losing altitude with an engine failure?
Or 60 miles out on a race course with 50 miles to go and people passing you while you're stuck in just one gear?

Uh, not so much ...

You like making dramatic claims with your airplane analogy. There are two problems with this: 1) we're talking about bicycles 2) it's called "fly-by-wire" for a reason.

To your race-course example, what's the difference between a an electronic shifting failure halfway through an IM and a cable snapping or a shift lever breaking? You might only lose one derailleur and not the other with electronic as well. Honestly, I think you're getting yourself into an emotionally anxious state out of fear, possibly by way of your airplane analogy, and it's made you irrationally afraid of potential failures from electronic shifting compared with potential failures from mechanical shifting. Personally, I have more faith that electronic shifting work correctly for me in a race than mechanical (and no one, to my knowledge, has actual data either way), so repetitions of failure scenarios and talk of airplanes doesn't persuade me. The former is not unique to electronic shifting, and the latter is just off-topic.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: Two ironmans messed up by SRAM Etap in less than one month. BEWARE! [Toby] [ In reply to ]
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 My 2 cents I have Etap on my TT bike. Have no issues after 1 year.
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Re: Two ironmans messed up by SRAM Etap in less than one month. BEWARE! [Nolegs] [ In reply to ]
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Nolegs wrote:
DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Yes, agreed about the rate of failure.

However, the failure modes of electronic shifting is, unfortunately, another issue entirely.


Totally agree. Sort of reminds be back in the late 70's when GM switched their distributor from mechanical points and rotor to HEI. I thought, holy crap, how the heck do I work on this now? I'm not an electronic engineer. Guess what? This new electronic distributor completely blew away the older mechanical one.

Fast forward to today. Deja vu all over again. Don't fight the progress. Embrace it.

To counter that automotive analogy, let's take the case of my Mazda minivan. Automatic transmissions controlled using hydraulic "logic" have been used for 1/2 a century plus and are fairly reliable. Well, in the design of the transmission for this van, the "engineers" decided that they were going to go "all modern" and use electronically actuated solenoid valves (since the ECU could then control shifts) that were exposed to the high temperature transmission fluid. Guess what?..those valves don't last too long in that environment. And, guess what happens when they fail? Yup, total transmission failure. The first 2 transmissions in that van failed on my at 45-50K miles, like clockwork...

So, not only did they design in a device that has a higher failure rate under the conditions than the previous non-electronic equivalent, its failure mode also totally eliminated the transmissions function. In other words, it was no longer "fail safe".

That to me seems the more apt analogy to electronic drivetrains on bicycles.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Two ironmans messed up by SRAM Etap in less than one month. BEWARE! [Toby] [ In reply to ]
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Toby wrote:
You like making dramatic claims with your airplane analogy. There are two problems with this: 1) we're talking about bicycles 2) it's called "fly-by-wire" for a reason.


Not trying to be dramatic, but there are important differences between mechanical shifting and electronic, say, shimano di2.

First, I gotta admit that electronic shifting (di2) is cool and it works better than mechanical (with some caveats, like charging the battery/s, etc.). And that improved function can be kinda intoxicating and can make one forget what happens when electronic shifting doesn't work. Because there are major qualitative differences between how mechanical shifting fails, and how electronic shifting fails.

Mechanical shifting can fail in a multitude of different ways, but it fails very rarely, and, when it does fail, very few of those failure modes leave a resourceful rider completely SOL.

Unfortunately, electronic shifting has only a couple of failure modes. And most of those failures do leave a rider SOL, or riding in only one gear, which is kinda the same thing.

Essentially, that was the only thing I was trying to say.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook

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Last edited by: DarkSpeedWorks: Nov 15, 17 14:23
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Re: Two ironmans messed up by SRAM Etap in less than one month. BEWARE! [RP29] [ In reply to ]
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RP29 wrote:
One month ago while racing in Kona after 30 min into the ride my rear derailleur started shifting on its own going all the way down to the 11th cog, when trying to bring it up then the front derailleur will shift, it was all over the place! I fist stopped and swap the batteries and seemed the problem was fixed, 10 min later did it again. Stopped again and disconnected the cables from the blip box tried to clean the plugs and plugged them again, again that seemed to work. 10-15min later happend again! Long story short I ended up getting off the bike 17 times in total loosing over 20min on the bike and completely messing up my race in Kona.

After the race I tried contacting SRAM directy, to my surprise there was no way of contacting them, had to be through a distributor /mechanic. I went see my local mechanic and explained him everything with all details, I even send him my garmin file so he or the guys from sram could see the 17 times I had stopped. Few days later they came back saying that the problem was on the rear derailleur which didn't make sense to me, it clearly looked like a short in the blip box connection but when the mechanic asked sram they replied saying they were the experts and they knew what they're doing so I trusted them, they sent a new rear derailleur and seemed to work fine.

After my bad experience in kona I decided to get "back on the horse" and race ironman los cabos yesterday. I was having a really good race, I was riding in second place and suddenly after 120k out no where the same issue from kona came back but this time it got stuck in the 54/11,i tried everything to fix it, I even replaced the battery from the blip box (I always carry a spare 2032 battery) and nothing worked. I lost 40min and had to finish my ride riding in a single speed (IM Los Cabos is not particularly flat!).

I still managed to finish 7th in my AG but far from a Kona slot which was the objective. It's hard to explain how frustrated I am, and all because of SRAM negligence!

If you are considering changing to Etap think it twice, and if you already race with it just be aware this could happen to you any time.

I hoping I can send back all my etap back and at least I want a clear explanation of what's happening and not just replacing a part thinking that would solve the problem which it clearly didn't work the first time!


Hate to break it to you but not far, it rolled down to 6th in our age group in Los Cabos. Looking at the results, you missed the spot by 27 seconds. If it means anything, the guy who got 6th was ecstatic from what I hear.
Last edited by: CP78: Nov 15, 17 14:29
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Re: Two ironmans messed up by SRAM Etap in less than one month. BEWARE! [RP29] [ In reply to ]
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Hello RP29 and All,

You are probably aware of these hacks but it is a good idea to try shifting with just the 'Blip Box' (with the blips unplugged) and just use the button on the derailleurs occasionally so you are familiar in the event of failures. It is also a way to help isolate the location of a failure .... should it occur.

These hacks provide a possible way to lock into a particular gear combo with a partial failure ...... something not easily done with a mechanical system.

Oh .... and using only the 'Blip Box' in one hand you can scratch your ass (with both hands) and shift at the same time.

Try that with a mechanical system.

https://www.sram.com/...52tfdx10m62hs3g8m0fh

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Two ironmans messed up by SRAM Etap in less than one month. BEWARE! [RP29] [ In reply to ]
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OMG the exact same thing happened to me today on a training ride!!! Was working fine then on a descent I look down and all of a sudden its shifted all the way down to the 11th cog...and same thing tried to shift up and front Der shifts into small ring. Pulled over and stopped shifting altogether. I limped home and took it to my shop and they diagnosed it as a blip box issue. They swapped out the blip box with a new one and worked perfectly. I now have to contact SRAM to see if they will ship out a new blip box asap as Im right in the middle of a training bloc for IM Santa Rosa. So frustrating. I have never had any issues with DI2 ever.
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Re: Two ironmans messed up by SRAM Etap in less than one month. BEWARE! [danstu4] [ In reply to ]
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danstu4 wrote:
It sounds like you have a bad blip. I have 2 go bad on me. Still love it tho. Nothing is going to work perfectly all the time every time

Wow I can’t believe how you can have such low standards.
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Re: Two ironmans messed up by SRAM Etap in less than one month. BEWARE! [iamuwere] [ In reply to ]
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(My 2 paragraph rant on what I now realize was a months old thread.... deleted for being redundant)
Last edited by: JoeO: Apr 1, 18 6:10
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Re: Two ironmans messed up by SRAM Etap in less than one month. BEWARE! [RP29] [ In reply to ]
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i had it happen couple of times - it is actually not a blip but the shifter button; i use clics and sometimes grime wd stuck there and make it in always on
thus when u try to upshift it thinks u pressing both and shofts front derailleur
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Re: Two ironmans messed up by SRAM Etap in less than one month. BEWARE! [R2] [ In reply to ]
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I had the same issue with the 'ghost' shifting. It was isolated to the port in which my aerobar shifter was linked to. When I switched the blip to another port it worked seamlessly, and when I left the affected port open I was able to at least shift the bike instead of just automatically shifting to the 11 (and when trying to switch back up, automatically shifting the front derailleur due to the blipbox thinking the blip is held down).


All that being said I will not have another box with Etap. I have had too many issues already with it, and will go back to DI2. I won't go back to mechanical though - unless it is a road bike.

IG: NCGregory8778
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Re: Two ironmans messed up by SRAM Etap in less than one month. BEWARE! [Toby] [ In reply to ]
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I'd much rather troubleshoot electronics than try to do tension perfectly, nevermind flushing hydraulic fluid...


I'm pretty handy around bikes, but that final tuning up of both rear and front derailleurs on mechanical bikes . . . it's something I could never get just right.

I'm currently test riding a Cervelo R5 with the new 2018 Shimano DA Di2, for a couple of stories that'm writing. I've ridden on electronic a few times before. I must say that Shimano has REALLY refined the shifting on Di2. I would now put it in the amazing category! Also, I've discovered how to fine tune the system in adjustment mode! in a world - brilliant.I can now fine tune a rear derailleur and get in shifting perfectly.

Also, on the demo bike from Cervelo, it has the newest version of Di2 that has the junction box and the battery in the right hand handlebar tube! So minimal wires running around outside. I often thought that looked strange - $10,000 bike with the junction box and the wires all hanging down under the stem. Looked kind of messy.

I've never been anti electronic - it's just that, well tuned mechanical, was so close, that the difference in rice did not seem worth it. But I may now be sold! I'm in the market for a new Road Bike, probably later on this year - will seriously look at Di2 for the new ride.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Apr 2, 18 17:44
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Re: Two ironmans messed up by SRAM Etap in less than one month. BEWARE! [Savage8778] [ In reply to ]
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i totally agree the whole blip should just go away
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Re: Two ironmans messed up by SRAM Etap in less than one month. BEWARE! [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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Hi RP29, Nealhe, all

RP29, what was the final outcome of this, did SRAM replace under warranty? Any other folks who got eTap replaced under warranty?

I fully empathize with RP29 - raced IM 70.3 Marbella yesterday and after hitting a hidden pothole (or smth) in full downhill, my whole eTap went haywire, chain shifted from big to small cog, and from the 11th to the 3rd... blips out of order - perfect disaster at 30 mph with 6 miles to go! Managed to get the chain on the big ring again with some luck and sudden blip-response, swapped the 2 derailer batteries yet clearly was not rational. Whole unit seems messed up now, either no response at all, or just for a second. This is not due to battery failure or humidity. Seems this has to go back for warranty :(.

Will check the manual/blip shifting functionality, learnt something today!

Still managed to retain a top10 ranking in my AG..




nealhe wrote:
Hello RP29 and All,

You are probably aware of these hacks but it is a good idea to try shifting with just the 'Blip Box' (with the blips unplugged) and just use the button on the derailleurs occasionally so you are familiar in the event of failures. It is also a way to help isolate the location of a failure .... should it occur.

These hacks provide a possible way to lock into a particular gear combo with a partial failure ...... something not easily done with a mechanical system.

Oh .... and using only the 'Blip Box' in one hand you can scratch your ass (with both hands) and shift at the same time.

Try that with a mechanical system.

https://www.sram.com/...52tfdx10m62hs3g8m0fh
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